OR - Nine killed in Umpqua Community College shooting, Roseburg, 1 Oct 2015 - #2

[sonjay]

Good post. Was thinking... We all wonder if society has always been this way, or have (things like this) gotten worse?
Once again, referring back to reading that horrific thread, the offender's fellow robots, went to great lengths to acknowledge and agree that 'the offender' was UGLY. Yes, Ugly. He called himself ugly and showed his picture rather than an anonymous gravatar. In response, his online 'friends' confirmed he was indeed, quite ugly.

So - my point is this -----
Ten years ago, there was no internet for people to go on and commiserate with those like themselves. For this madman, his online 'friends' encouraged him to move forward! Ughhhh. So yes, I think it is worse than it used to be in our society. But then this gets all really deep, right? - becuse social media, itself, has become a weapon to facilitate madness. Oooy.

I'm about as hard-line in supporting the First Amendment as the Second. But I have to recognize that sites like 4chan create a unique community for the disturbed. In everyday life, people like this Oregon are misfits, and they know that their thoughts and desires are abnormal. But on sites like 4chan, they become part of a community of like-minded people who make all those twisted dark violent tendencies seem "normal."

I really think it fosters the idea in people like that that what they want to do is "okay" somehow.

It's very disturbing. I'm not sure what, if anything, can be done about it.

 

[Sonya610]

Both were included because the point of the article was to separate the two, so mental illness doesn't keep getting brought into mass shootings the way it does.

They ramble on about gun shootings and stats while leaving out all aspects of race....and THEN they say there seems to be a problem with the brains of white men that purchase firearms to protect their families.

That is hardly surprising considering the source, nevertheless it shows just how biased the entire article is.

 

[KaaBoom]

The father said:

"...That's what guns are, the killers. Simple as that. Simple as that. It's black and white. What do you want a gun for?"

That doesn't seem like deflection to you? His grown son shoots 20 people and he says 'the guns are the killers?'

His son was lonely and isolated. Who cares if he was not with his ex-wife anymore. That was still his son. Fathers always have responsibility to be supportive of their sons, especially one who is struggling. He seems really quick to blame ALL OF IT on the gun laws, imo. And seems to distance his son and himself from any of it. 'The guns are the killers, simple as that.'

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/04/us/oregon-shooting-father-gun-control/

1. No parent has a responsibility to an adult child. Period.

2. Even if the child is a minor, I don't believe it is reasonable to hold a parent responsible, if they do not have custody of the child. If the child is not in their custody, then how that child is being raised is out of their control.

3. Blaming a father who hasn't seen his son in two years, while ignoring the conduct of the crazy mother who gave guns to her crazy son, is not logical.

4. The father was 100% right. If not for American gun culture, his son could not have gotten the guns, and his son and nine other people would be alive right now.

 

[bluesneakers]

They ramble on about gun shootings and stats while leaving out all aspects of race....and THEN they say there seems to be a problem with the brains of white men that purchase firearms to protect their families.

That is hardly surprising considering the source, nevertheless it shows just how biased the entire article is.

<modsnip>

It's a study. There is a lot of (fascinating imo) information in it relating to cases just like this one in Oregon. And will be relevant to the next one too. <snip>

Here's a link to the study itself:
http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdfplus/10.2105/AJPH.2014.302242

 

[KaaBoom]

Also, if we are going to talk about his mother, shouldn't we also speak about the impact of his father on his life?

No, it was the mother who was raising him. Unless it can be proven that the father is lying when he said that he didn't know that his son had guns, he has no responsibility for this.

 

[katydid23]

1. No parent has a responsibility to an adult child. Period.

2. Even if the child is a minor, I don't believe it is reasonable to hold a parent responsible, if they do not have custody of the child. If the child is not in their custody, then how that child is being raised is out of their control.

3. Blaming a father who hasn't seen his son in two years, while ignoring the conduct of the crazy mother who gave guns to her crazy son, is not logical.

4. The father was 100% right. If not for American gun culture, his son could not have gotten the guns, and his son and nine other people would be alive right now.

1=== I disagree. Parenthood does not end at age 18. JMO
2.===I do not hold the father 'responsible' for the son's vile actions. But at the same time, the father does have a responsibility to be a father to his son. His son was struggling with pain, loneliness, feelings of abandonment. Maybe the father going off and starting a new family was partially the trigger for those painful emotions.
3. ===I am not blaming him. I am pushing back on his claim that it was 'the gun' that was the killer. Why hadn't he seen his son in 2 years? Why didn't he know the dire circumstances the son was in?
4. It was not the American gun culture that was at fault, imo. It was the son's mental health issues and his severe depression. Someone needed to help that young man. My son is 26 and if he was having emotional issues then I would take it upon myself, as HIS PARENT to try and help him sort things out. My mentally ill younger brother is in his 50's and my Mom still takes it upon herself to help him quite actively.

 

[katydid23]

No, it was the mother who was raising him. Unless it can be proven that the father is lying when he said that he didn't know that his son had guns, he has no responsibility for this.

So the father can just walk away and wash his hands of any responsibility for a troubled son?

 

[bluesneakers]

So the father can just walk away and wash his hands of any responsibility for a troubled son?

This happens every single day.

 

[GutInstinct]

I'm about as hard-line in supporting the First Amendment as the Second. But I have to recognize that sites like 4chan create a unique community for the disturbed. In everyday life, people like this Oregon are misfits, and they know that their thoughts and desires are abnormal. But on sites like 4chan, they become part of a community of like-minded people who make all those twisted dark violent tendencies seem "normal."

I really think it fosters the idea in people like that that what they want to do is "okay" somehow.

It's very disturbing. I'm not sure what, if anything, can be done about it.

Excellent post sonjay. You said what I was trying to said, but didn't.

 

[bluesneakers]

1. No parent has a responsibility to an adult child. Period.

2. Even if the child is a minor, I don't believe it is reasonable to hold a parent responsible, if they do not have custody of the child. If the child is not in their custody, then how that child is being raised is out of their control.

3. Blaming a father who hasn't seen his son in two years, while ignoring the conduct of the crazy mother who gave guns to her crazy son, is not logical.

4. The father was 100% right. If not for American gun culture, his son could not have gotten the guns, and his son and nine other people would be alive right now.

This kid was an adult. He was well beyond doing what his father told him to do or not do. I can see saying the dad is responsible in some ways for how his son was raised, but once you hit adulthood its on you to take care of yourself. The dad didn't drive him to UCC and hold a gun to his head.

 

[katydid23]

Both were included because the point of the article was to separate the two, so mental illness doesn't keep getting brought into mass shootings the way it does.

I am sorry, but I do have to roll my eyes a bit about this study. So they want to say that mental illness should not be a scapegoat in mass shootings. Fine. And yet, let's look at some of the most recent mass shooters, Lanza, Holmes, Rodgers, Mercer----are they mentally ill? YES. No one is saying that ALL people with mental illness are killers or are even violent. But if you look at it from the other end first, just looking at the shooters, the majority are suffering from mental health issues.
Obviously so, imo.

It is the same thing as 'guns.' NOT all gun owners are violent nor are they going to be mass shooters. But if you look at it from the 'other end' ---and look at the shooters then once can say ' all mass killers were gun owners.' But that is just as much a scapegoating thing as saying all mass shooters have Aspergers. Certainly not all Aspies are violent. But yet many mass shooters have the syndrome. So how do we discuss it without scapegoating?

 

[katydid23]

This kid was an adult. He was well beyond doing what his father told him to do or not do. I can see saying the dad is responsible in some ways for how his son was raised, but once you hit adulthood its on you to take care of yourself. The dad didn't drive him to UCC and hold a gun to his head.

The Dad said it was the gun laws that are to blame. I find that very hypocritical coming from the one person that could have taken more interest in this troubled young man's life. This young man felt unloved and abandoned. Were 'guns' to blame for those horrid feelings he harbored? Or perhaps were those feelings coming from feeling rejected by someone he loved and felt abandoned by?

 

[Jabarn]

Abstract from published article by James L. Knoll, IV, MD, in the Journal of American Psychiatry and Law Online, 2010

The pseudocommando is a type of mass murderer who kills in public during the daytime, plans his offense well in advance, and comes prepared with a powerful arsenal of weapons. He has no escape planned and expects to be killed during the incident. Research suggests that the pseudocommando is driven by strong feelings of anger and resentment, flowing from beliefs about being persecuted or grossly mistreated. He views himself as carrying out a highly personal agenda of payback. Some mass murderers take special steps to send a final communication to the public or news media; these communications, to date, have received little detailed analysis. An offender's use of language may reveal important data about his state of mind, motivation, and psychopathology. Part I of this article reviews the research on the pseudocommando, as well as the psychology of revenge, with special attention to revenge fantasies. It is argued that revenge fantasies become the last refuge for the pseudocommando's mortally wounded self-esteem and ultimately enable him to commit mass murder-suicide.

 

[katydid23]

This happens every single day.

And is it right?

 

[bluesneakers]

The Dad said it was the gun laws that are to blame. I find that very hypocritical coming from the one person that could have taken more interest in this troubled young man's life. This young man felt unloved and abandoned. Were 'guns' to blame for those horrid feelings he harbored? Or perhaps were those feelings coming from feeling rejected by someone he loved and felt abandoned by?

So you think the dad is responsible because he was distant and the son filled the void with guns? He was 26! Time to grow up. It's not on his dad what he did.

 

[katydid23]

Abstract from published article by James L. Knoll, IV, MD, in the Journal of American Psychiatry and Law Online, 2010

The pseudocommando is a type of mass murderer who kills in public during the daytime, plans his offense well in advance, and comes prepared with a powerful arsenal of weapons. He has no escape planned and expects to be killed during the incident. Research suggests that the pseudocommando is driven by strong feelings of anger and resentment, flowing from beliefs about being persecuted or grossly mistreated. He views himself as carrying out a highly personal agenda of payback. Some mass murderers take special steps to send a final communication to the public or news media; these communications, to date, have received little detailed analysis. An offender's use of language may reveal important data about his state of mind, motivation, and psychopathology. Part I of this article reviews the research on the pseudocommando, as well as the psychology of revenge, with special attention to revenge fantasies. It is argued that revenge fantasies become the last refuge for the pseudocommando's mortally wounded self-esteem and ultimately enable him to commit mass murder-suicide.

wow. This fits our most recent mass shooters to a T. And I think that it also has an element of 'gamers' in it too. Lost of troubled young men drowned their sorrows in violent video games for years. And being a 'PsuedoCommander' is a perfect description for their endgame.

 

[katydid23]

So you think the dad is responsible because he was distant and the son filled the void with guns? He was 26! Time to grow up. It's not on his dad what he did.

But it is on 'guns' what he did? The father said it is ALL because of guns. No mention of the empty void and sadness the son endured. Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

[bluesneakers]

And is it right?

You asked "So the father can just walk away and wash his hands of any responsibility for a troubled son?"

It happens all the time and I think you know that. Take a look at the missing forums here. Not all of those people were kidnapped or attacked by bears.

 

[katydid23]

This kid was an adult. He was well beyond doing what his father told him to do or not do. I can see saying the dad is responsible in some ways for how his son was raised, but once you hit adulthood its on you to take care of yourself. The dad didn't drive him to UCC and hold a gun to his head.

Is it your responsibility to 'take care of yourself' if you are mentally ill ?

 

[bluesneakers]

But it is on 'guns' what he did? The father said it is ALL because of guns. No mention of the empty void and sadness the son endured. Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle.

He used guns to kill people. He bought them, bought ammunition, loaded his guns, took his guns to school and shot up a whole bunch of people. That's what guns do. It's on him and his guns, not on his dad, imo.

Not sure about his mother, because they were living together and she might have supplied the weapons to her son. She bears some responsibility, imo, but I don't know all the details.