OR OR - Stephanie Warner, 43, Ruch, 4 Jul 2013 - #2

[Neptune]

Son posted a photo of himself on FB apparently at Stephanie's on July 5, but there is no way to tell when it was taken.

I believe if the photo was taken by his own cell phone the date/time it was taken can be proven -- provided LE took his phone and made a carbon copy of it. Hopefully Henderson did that. This is done routinely in criminal cases.

Good point, Lilibet, about the POI not making YT videos seeking Stephanie -- he seems to be prolific in his militant anti-govt messages and yet oddly not a single video after the love of his life went missing. Skilled at putting together videos, but no skill in putting together a desperate message seeking his fiancé who may be endangered or hurt. He also doesn't seem to understand that a news station is not going to air an entire interview -- that they edit, of course, and usually down to a few seconds. He got 2 minutes of air time -- that is a long interview by media standards. What kind of person believes the entire half-hour news broadcast will be about him? That an audience would be that interested in what he has to say? Oh, wait -- he thinks that. Time to come out of the cave of unreality and see the light of day.
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[Neptune]

Also, do you know when they left? I was under the impression, talking to a local neighbor, that they all cleared out around Sept. 5-7. Someone I know who was out in Ruch over Labor Day Sept. 2 was told that they were "squatting" at the house. I was in Ruch Tuesday Sept. 10 and was told that the animals were being dispersed to new homes that evening. All this is rumor, so I'm just trying to get an accurate time line. Thanks!

Silverton people, when subpoenaed, should know when the clan arrived there. Junior's mother likely knows and she appears honest. You can bet Stephanie's neighbors know for certain when they left.
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[OUOTP]

Hey everyone... I'm back! Catching up on the past weeks flurry of activity. You all are so wonderful. Let's get this mystery solved!

 

[Neptune]

Hey everyone... I'm back! Catching up on the past weeks flurry of activity. You all are so wonderful. Let's get this mystery solved!

Welcome back, OUOTP! Unfortunately, not much advancement and it looks like Henderson may be forced to eat wild-goose for Thanksgiving.

3 marked Sheriffs vehicles and one unmarked Truck were at Stephanie's residence. The crew of 3-5, worked on getting all of the water out of the largest of the holes dug on Stephanie's property. Once the water was pumped out of the hole, men began hand digging out the hole. This pumping of water and digging commenced for 6 hours.

Did anyone mention dogs? I just can't believe that the dogs would have missed this location earlier if she was buried there. If the K9s were trained the way they described in MSM reports. SAR dogs are not Cadaver dogs, though -- different smell-set. Unfortunately, I don’t have time – but if anyone is willing to find a K9 expert within the WS posting community they may be able to chime in here.

Also did they haul the dirt away? Based on the Son/Dil photos it looked like a huge pile with big rocks and boulders. This hole as a place to focus on seems unrealistic in many respects, but I'd be happy to be found wrong on this.
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[OUOTP]

Welcome back, OUOTP! Unfortunately, not much advancement and it looks like Henderson may be forced to eat wild-goose for Thanksgiving

Ha! I didn't realize it was Snipe season in Southern Oregon!

 

[Lilibet]

Ha! I didn't realize it was Snipe season in Southern Oregon!

Snipe and snark seasons run all year long here. :floorlaugh:

 

[Lilibet]

Hey everyone... I'm back! Catching up on the past weeks flurry of activity. You all are so wonderful. Let's get this mystery solved!

Welcome back! Hope you had a great trip. We missed you. :seeya:

 

[Lilibet]

Welcome back, OUOTP! Unfortunately, not much advancement and it looks like Henderson may be forced to eat wild-goose for Thanksgiving.

Did anyone mention dogs? I just can't believe that the dogs would have missed this location earlier if she was buried there. If the K9s were trained the way they described in MSM reports. SAR dogs are not Cadaver dogs, though -- different smell-set. Unfortunately, I don’t have time – but if anyone is willing to find a K9 expert within the WS posting community they may be able to chime in here.

Also did they haul the dirt away? Based on the Son/Dil photos it looked like a huge pile with big rocks and boulders. This hole as a place to focus on seems unrealistic in many respects, but I'd be happy to be found wrong on this.
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BBM

According to the linked article, both SAR and cadaver dogs were used. In fact, it was a pretty thorough, multifaceted search.

"In addition to welfare checks by deputies, search-and-rescue crews searched areas near the missing woman’s home last week, he said.

On July 10, seven searchers using dogs looked for signs of Warner on her property and surrounding areas. Using an article that carried Warner’s scent, searchers used their specially trained scent hounds as well as cadaver dogs trained to detect the scent of human remains, he said.

“We found nothing,” Richards said.

On July 11 a second set of 16 searchers performed a grid search, walking closely together along various areas in the Applegate Valley. A third search was performed along the Applegate River using a helicopter, he said."

http://www.opb.org/news/article/search-escalates-for-ruch-woman/

I was researching cadaver dogs the other day and got distracted, so I'll get back to it. I do know from the Johnathan Croom case this summer, that a cadaver dog did not pick up his scent immediately, even though he was fairly close to where his car was parked. Heat can cause problems, as I recall, and in that case there was smoke from fires.

I hope they have a solid lead to do all that digging. I wonder if she could have been put there after the dog search.

 

[Dicentra]

Hi Lilibit - I carefully chronicled the first week, then became overwhelmed. I'll be able to check my phone/text records to get more information on dates for you; I did keep all of those. I think the initial numbness wore off and I was able to start feeling my grief as the horror of what I now know in my heart, must have happened, began to work it's way into my consciousness. I've had to reconcile that she won't be coming home... at least not the way we want her home. I don't cry all the time anymore and I'm back to work. Life goes on, but with a sadness that is almost like a heartbeat. It is always with me, coloring my days. AND, being a hopeful person, I continue to pray that this situation NEVER, EVER happens to another individual; I want her found; I want the "not knowing what happened" and "when" and "where" questions answered.

If the person who did this only knew how many people he's harmed - how much pain he's caused - what he's stollen from us... But then, a sociopath with Narcissistic tendencies, wouldn't care.

 

[Dicentra]

I don't believe LE was digging for a body; they did take what appeared to be samples of something (soil?).

I had an expert go out to the "dig" two months ago. He's a miner from CA (that's actually the way he makes his living) and he told me that while he doesn't understand what they were doing, or perhaps they didn't know what they were doing, but that when one is really dredging for gold, there are separate piles of different kinds of earth; that they'd need LOTS of water to rinse and that the set-up "didn't look right at all." His bottom line: He doesn't believe they were really digging for gold.

My theory, for what it's worth, is that the gold digging was a sham to fool Stephanie into thinking they were digging for gold, meanwhile, he started this "produce the note" for her mortgage company (remember, POI IS a paralegal), and had her sign a LEASE (I don't know how long the lease is for). From what I understand, when a mortgage company comes to take possession/foreclose on a property, if it is leased, they have to "buy out" the lease holder.

...OR, maybe there WAS gold and he did the "produce the note," so that he could remain on the property to mine it.

I know, because for awhile (I collected the mail and sent it on to Sister/Conservator Sharon), that POI, Jared & Amanda had their mail coming to Stephanie's house. Another way to "prove" they lived there.

 

[Dicentra]

Just so you know, Stephanie LOVED her property and would NEVER have given it up! I was truly shocked that POI had talked her into the "produce the note" thing - again, she was manipulated.

 

[Lilibet]

Hi Lilibit - I carefully chronicled the first week, then became overwhelmed. I'll be able to check my phone/text records to get more information on dates for you; I did keep all of those.

(Respectfully snipped for space.)

That would be great if you feel like it, Dicentra. It would be nice info to nail down, but I don't think it's essential. I was curious, especially about when they all moved in. Thanks.

And regarding the rest of what you wrote, I can't begin to imagine what this would be like. Hugs.

 

[Lilibet]

Just so you know, Stephanie LOVED her property and would NEVER have given it up! I was truly shocked that POI had talked her into the "produce the note" thing - again, she was manipulated.

I had to google "produce the note" as I had never heard of that. Basically, it's a strategy someone can use with a bank that is foreclosing on them. Since mortgages get sold multiple times, there may be a chance that the foreclosing entity doesn't actually have the note or has a hard time finding it. Demanding that they "produce the note" can delay foreclosure. It has a legitimate use.

In Ames case, it was likely that he was using this strategy so that Stephanie could stop paying her mortgage and remain in her home. The neighbor in Ruch I talked to told me that Ames had "brainwashed" (I'm quoting) Stephanie into believing she could stop paying her mortgage. The link below explains how to use "produce the note" and "adverse possession" to stay in your home in the event of foreclosure.

Given his ideology and his rumored history of squatting, it looks to me as if Ames was possibly taking this a step further and had convinced Stephanie that forcing foreclosure and using this strategy was actually a noble thing to do. And of course, if he had a lease, he would benefit too. She couldn't kick him off her property, the mortgage company might have to "buy out" his lease, and in the meantime, and she would have more money in her pocket to spend on him. Brilliant!!

Here is the relevant section of the link.

"That, [produce the note] however, is not the only arrow in your quiver if you are faced with foreclosure. There is also "adverse possession." Adverse possession in Oregon requires a ten-year occupancy that is "open, notorious, and hostile," and there is a further requirement that you believe that the land is rightfully yours. Many States have this clause.

So that is the scheme I am suggesting, to retain human rights to land, and to destroy the mortgage capitalist institutions that have sucked away our life savings and which threaten our very homes and existences: Stay in your foreclosed home, keep paying the utilities (thereby becoming "open and notorious," demand that the Note be presented with your original signature at the foreclosure proceeding--'cause maybe it can't be!--and file a public "notice of adverse possession" (this is a strategy that I am improvising, consult a lawyer) that cites the Universal Declaration of Human Rights section that I posted above; include in the statement your heartfelt belief that, given the collapse of the mortgage industry and of the economy generally due to their incompetence, and due to the copious allocation of public money to such institutions to cover their own malfeasance, the land has reverted to your ownership by right. Frankly, if you can hold on to your property for ten years after such a stunt, I'd bet you really would have ownership. In any event, the law presupposes your tenancy as valid, so you can't be kicked out while the court procedures are dragging on!

Imagine how much money you could save, working month after month or year after year, paying NO MORTGAGE! Even after the end game, you'd have savings and thus would not necessarily contribute to homelessness ("houselessness").

Staying in your home is your patriotic duty, if you define patriotism as "doing right by the community." No one but a tiny group of distant, parasitic, inheritance-class elite can benefit from your leaving the house to its decay; but the community at large retains stability and wealth if you stay, paying as you always have for utilities, services, food, and commodities. Don't EVEN THINK of leaving your home "because it's the right thing to do." Unless you have another home to go to, it isn't."

BBM

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2009/02/385922.shtml

 

[OldSteve]

Curious as to the status of her home at present - is it empty? Was there a will leaving it to someone?
Interesting about "produce the note" - doing that, does allow for her house to remain out of foreclosure while there's no one around to pay the mortgage?

Is that something someone would want in place before she went missing to ensure ownership of her house wouldn't go to a bank?

 

[Lilibet]

Curious as to the status of her home at present - is it empty? Was there a will leaving it to someone?
Interesting about "produce the note" - doing that, does allow for her house to remain out of foreclosure while there's no one around to pay the mortgage?

Is that something someone would want in place before she went missing to ensure ownership of her house wouldn't go to a bank?

Interesting questions, Old Steve. I hope someone can answer about current occupancy and a will. Of course, no one can inherit for years if there is no proof someone has died. Hmmmmm....

My understanding, from what I was told when I was in Ruch doing my Miss Marple thing, is that someone holds a second mortgage on Stephanie's place. If the bank forecloses, my understanding was that this person has a right to obtain the property, and was planning to do so. I would imagine paying off the second and continuing the mortgage payments would stop foreclosure, and give that person the property, since Stephanie has disappeared. But this is just rumor and some speculation on my part.

It would likely be up to either the person holding the second or the person who might stand to inherit the property to decide whether to insist that the bank produce the note when they start foreclosure. All it really does, when used legitimately, is buy time before eviction and ensure that, if you pay the bank, that you are actually paying the one who holds the note. You don't want to pay to stay and then have the actual note holder to come after you later.

I'm not sure how the second mortgage would have factored into my theory about Ames' "produce the note" and "adverse possession" strategy. Perhaps he didn't know about the second or perhaps payments would have continued to the person holding the second...or not. In any case, he and Stephanie would be able to delay eviction indefinitely if the strategy worked. After ten years, squatters' rights could prevail.

Occupying the property, having a lease, having mail sent there, paying power bills, etc. would strengthen Ames' position after her disappearance. But IMO the person holding the second mortgage or potential inheritor could trump all that. Finding out about the plans of the holder of the second mortgage may be why he gave up and left in early September.

I'm inclined to think that he needed Stephanie to make this misuse of "produce the note" work. If he couldn't win her back, and if there was a huge fight July 4, and she threatened to tear up the lease...disappearing her would be his only possible option for keeping his "gold mine." IMO, JMO

 

[Lilibet]

Did anyone mention dogs? I can't believe that the dogs would have missed this location earlier if she was buried there. If the K9s were trained the way they described in MSM reports. SAR dogs are not Cadaver dogs, though -- different smell-set. Unfortunately, I don’t have time – but if anyone is willing to find a K9 expert within the WS posting community they may be able to chime in here.
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Although cadaver dogs are quite accurate, they do fail.

Here is a WS discussion about a cadaver dog failing to find the remains of Nicholle Coppler. They were not found until the house was demolished.

Individual post by Misteriew explaining why dogs are fallible:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Cadaver dogs failed to find body in crawlspace


Thread: Cadaver dogs failed to find body in crawlspace - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


That being said, Dicentra does not believe the dig at Stephanie's was searching for her body.

 

[Lilibet]

Here is a link about cadaver dogs that are available to LE in Oregon. I hope the best were used for Stephanie.

http://www.ok9st.org/ok9st/index.html

 

[OUOTP]

All this talk about "produce the note" reminds me of the link I found early on in thread #1. I don't understand what was going on re" "produce the note" or anything about quitclaim deeds but I'm reposting this link in case someone else here does understand and can find a connection...Perhaps a running scam?
http://www.justanswer.com/real-estate-law/7mvm2-bought-house-lady-quitclaim-deed-it-reads.html

 

[Lilibet]

All this talk about "produce the note" reminds me of the link I found early on in thread #1. I don't understand what was going on re" "produce the note" or anything about quitclaim deeds but I'm reposting this link in case someone else here does understand and can find a connection...Perhaps a running scam?
http://www.justanswer.com/real-estate-law/7mvm2-bought-house-lady-quitclaim-deed-it-reads.html

I remember this. I don't think there is a connection to the "produce the note" plan. They are two different processes.

A quitclaim deed means you are giving up all or part of your ownership in a property to someone else. I know two cheated-on women who got quitclaim deeds from their husbands before they filed for divorce. Then they were free to sell their houses and keep all the money. If the question in the link is about this Lennie Ames, it sounds like Ames turned the house over to "Cathy" but the quitclaim was never filed, so he still retained part ownership, whether he knew it or not. I don't understand how Cathy sold it without this showing up in a title search. He ended up losing a house in Wyoming in 2012 because of unpaid taxes. It may be the house in the question. The link is somewhere on the first thread.

Stephanie's previous partner Michael signed over half ownership in the property in Ruch to Stephanie with a quitclaim deed in 2005 or 2006 if I recall. Sorry, I'm too lazy to dig this up again. When he died, it became hers, although his name is still on the county property tax listing with hers for some reason.

Ames might have liked to get a quitclaim deed from Stephanie, but then he'd still be responsible for the mortgage if anything happened to her. The "produce the note" and "squatting" strategy after foreclosure started could eventually gain him the property without spending any money. Definitely a scam IMO.

 

[OUOTP]

Can a quit claim (or lack of?) enable a scammer to (illegally, of course)"sell" a property while still retaining ownership? In other words, take money for nothing?