Orthodox Circumcision Ritual Leads to Baby's Death

[Nova]

Yes, but this is 2012, not 1912. We have the means to circumcise boys safely and there's no need for a ritual which requires an adult mouth on an infant penis. I stand by my disgusting and perverted comment. Because it's hidden behind a religious ritual doesn't make it okay in the least to me.

I really hope the community that practices this so called ritual has some laws placed behind it -- it should be illegal IMHO.

MOO thanks!

Mel

I think that's what I said, Mel. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

 

[wenwe4]

OK the LDS Mormons had to stop practicing polygamy in this country 150 years ago . . .(I know that there are many Fundamentalists who still practice in secret and in Canada and Mexico) due to having to follow the laws of the Land and the Country. How could this practice still continue? The Followers of Christ in Oregon City, OR were charged with not providing appropriate medical care when children died. Why would this be any different? Certainly this Man knew he had Herpes or even a sore in his mouth. He gave this infant a Death Sentence and played "God" with this child. How many more have to die before this guy is held accountable? In any other scenario . . . we would lock him up and throw away the key. There is NO circumstance in which an adult places his mouth on an infant's penis that doesn't constitute sexual abuse. Furthermore, he was the direct cause of this child's death. If other's in this religion have found more hygenic and appropriate ways to complete the Bris . . . there really is NO EXCUSE whatsoever!

 

[Nova]

I don't agree this is de facto "sexual abuse", no more than when a parent uses his or her hands to clean the genitalia of an infant or toddler. A bris is a public ceremony and the cleansing of the wound is a brief part of it. However weird it appears to us outsiders, we only confuse matters by projecting our ideas of sexual abuse onto an ancient tradition.

What the sucking of the wound IS, however, is unsanitary and, as we see, even potentially lethal. It should be banned on medical grounds. I don't believe we allow the cleaning of any other wounds by mouth and we shouldn't in this case.

If we are going to abridge the constitutional protection of freedom of religion, let's do so narrowly on the basis of medical science, not based on whether an ancient practice makes others feel uncomfortable.

(This is all separate from the argument that all male circumcision is mutilation, which is another fight altogether and would require its own thread.)

 

[Etilema]

A mohel (circumciser) who has been prohibited from performing this procedure, after causing the death of a baby in 2005, is apparently still at it:

"In 2005, it was reported that Rabbi Fischer had been linked to the infections of three infants, one of whom died, with the herpes simplex 1 virus. . . .In 2007, after Rabbi Fischer was linked to another case of neonatal herpes in May of that year, he was prohibited under Section 16 of the Public Health Law by the state Department of Health from performing metzitzah b’peh “in and throughout the state of New York.” . . ."
(http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/n...d_mohel_still_apparently_performing_metzitzah)

The article reports on a recorded phone call of a client arranging for him to do a bris and specifically requesting metzitzah b'peh, which he agrees to do.

Note that this is NOT the same mohel linked to the more recent baby death.

 

[Nova]

I thought I had a sense of the importance of religious and ethnic rituals, but I have no idea what Rabbi Fischer or his clients can be thinking.

Maybe the appropriate district attorney needs put on his/her big-boy pants and go ahead and charge Rabbi Fischer with attempted murder. I'm sure it's a political hot potato that nobody wants to touch, but come on!

 

[Etilema]

I thought I had a sense of the importance of religious and ethnic rituals, but I have no idea what Rabbi Fischer or his clients can be thinking.

Maybe the appropriate district attorney needs put on his/her big-boy pants and go ahead and charge Rabbi Fischer with attempted murder. I'm sure it's a political hot potato that nobody wants to touch, but come on!

A lot of people are thinking like that--putting some REAL charges on this mohel may be the only way to discourage others from continuing.

 

[wenwe4]

Feelin like I want to make a Mountain out of a Mohel!

 

[Etilema]

Oh, boy, still more cases mentioned in MSM.

Two recent ones in New Jersey, reported in the Forward:
http://forward.com/articles/153089/two-babies-sickened-by-circumcision-rite/

Two additional cases in Rockland County in 2009, mentioned at the end of this news video:
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local/northern_suburbs&id=8582534

The guy who is interviewed near the end of that news clip really angers me. No thought has gone into his opinion, either from a religious or a medical perspective. JMO

 

[Etilema]

It's not like this risk was unknown. From a 2004 study in the American Academy of Pediatrics official journal:

"Conclusion. Ritual Jewish circumcision that includes
metzitzah with direct oral– genital contact carries a serious risk for transmission of HSV from mohels to neonates, which can be complicated by protracted or severe
infection. Oral metzitzah after ritual circumcision may be
hazardous to the neonate. "

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/114/2/e259.full.pdf

The reason I keep beating on this is that I want there to be widespread public support for effective legal measures in dealing with this problem. It is frustrating how hard it is to prevent so many of the child deaths that we read about; THIS ONE WOULD BE SO EASY TO PREVENT.

 

[Nova]

Oh, boy, still more cases mentioned in MSM.

Two recent ones in New Jersey, reported in the Forward:
http://forward.com/articles/153089/two-babies-sickened-by-circumcision-rite/

Two additional cases in Rockland County in 2009, mentioned at the end of this news video:
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local/northern_suburbs&id=8582534

The guy who is interviewed near the end of that news clip really angers me. No thought has gone into his opinion, either from a religious or a medical perspective. JMO

BBM. That guy doesn't anger me as much as some of the other people in the report. (I think the last guy is just having trouble explaining the connection between tradition and identity.) If you ask me, there are a lot of strange remarks in that report.

The reporter concludes by mentioning that two other babies got herpies, "but the children recovered." Um, no. The children didn't die. There is no cure for herpies so one can't truthfully say they "recovered".

Earlier, a man being interviewed says, "You just have to make sure the person doing the circumcision is healthy." And he would do that how, exactly?

A woman says, "You have a better chance of getting hit by a car." Maybe so, but for most people, moving from one place to another is often a necessity. Cleaning a foreskin wound with your mouth is not.

 

[Nova]

...The reason I keep beating on this is that I want there to be widespread public support for effective legal measures in dealing with this problem. It is frustrating how hard it is to prevent so many of the child deaths that we read about; THIS ONE WOULD BE SO EASY TO PREVENT.

You know I agree with you. But there are still people complaining that the Catholic mass isn't conducted in Latin. (Of course, no children are harmed by hearing the mass in their native language.)

Observing religious customs are a big part of how some of us define who we are, and many people won't give up or change a ritual without a fight.

Though I think the practice we are discussing should be banned, outlawing it will require a brave legislature and prosecution will require brave DAs. And then they should expect to litigate the issue all the way to the Supreme Court.

 

[legalmania]

There is more bacteria in your mouth than there are people in the world according to this article. I don't know if that is true or not but if it is that is alarming. I had my son circumcised in the hospital with sterile instruments and the doctor told me I was taking a risk because of staff infection. I just felt it's was easier for my son to be able to wash himself. If someone would have suggest this ritual I would have said no way. No ones putting their mouth anywhere near my sons private parts.

http://www.information-facts.com/tag/bacteria

 

[Nova]

There is more bacteria in your mouth than there are people in the world according to this article. I don't know if that is true or not but if it is that is alarming. I had my son circumcised in the hospital with sterile instruments and the doctor told me I was taking a risk because of staff infection. I just felt it's was easier for my son to be able to wash himself. If someone would have suggest this ritual I would have said no way. No ones putting their mouth anywhere near my sons private parts.

http://www.information-facts.com/tag/bacteria

That is my understanding as well, legalmania. On the other hand, it also appears that saliva has some antibacterial qualities; otherwise, the bacteria in our mouth would kill us all (as opposed to only a few of us, as seems to be the case).

But herpes is a virus, not a bacterium, and a particularly hardy one at that.

And as you imply, it isn't the only thing a baby might catch from this procedure. (Of course, the wine is also supposed to act as a disinfectant, but given the procedure, i don't have any confidence that coverage of the wound will be comprehensive.)

 

[legalmania]

That is my understanding as well, legalmania. On the other hand, it also appears that saliva has some antibacterial qualities; otherwise, the bacteria in our mouth would kill us all (as opposed to only a few of us, as seems to be the case).

But herpes is a virus, not a bacterium, and a particularly hardy one at that.

And as you imply, it isn't the only thing a baby might catch from this procedure. (Of course, the wine is also supposed to act as a disinfectant, but given the procedure, i don't have any confidence that coverage of the wound will be comprehensive.)

After hearing this baby died would be another deterrent for me also. I don't know if this is an isolated incident, but maybe the people conducting these rituals with all the std's these days should rethink it's ways.

 

[Nova]

After hearing this baby died would be another deterrent for me also. I don't know if this is an isolated incident, but maybe the people conducting these rituals with all the std's these days should rethink it's ways.

Is Herpes 1 considered an STD? It isn't necessarily contracted through sex, though it certainly could be passed on by oral to genital contact.

To be fair, the mohels in question may have the virus that causes common cold sores. AFAIK, that might still be lethal to a newborn.

 

[Etilema]

Is Herpes 1 considered an STD? It isn't necessarily contracted through sex, though it certainly could be passed on by oral to genital contact.

To be fair, the mohels in question may have the virus that causes common cold sores. AFAIK, that might still be lethal to a newborn.

Although I agree that we are discussing Herpes 1, not an STD, and that it is apparently a very common virus among adults in this country (USA), even without visible cold sores. But we can't call that being fair to the mohels, because the very fact that this is a commonly carried virus, implies, to me anyway, that the mohels should not be doing this!

Please, does anyone reading this live in NY or NJ and think this practice is dangerous that places babies' health and lives at risk? If you don't let your public officials know that you think metzitzah b'peh should be prohibited or at least regulated, they won't bother to do anything.

JMO

 

[Etilema]

You know I agree with you. But there are still people complaining that the Catholic mass isn't conducted in Latin. (Of course, no children are harmed by hearing the mass in their native language.)

Observing religious customs are a big part of how some of us define who we are, and many people won't give up or change a ritual without a fight.

Though I think the practice we are discussing should be banned, outlawing it will require a brave legislature and prosecution will require brave DAs. And then they should expect to litigate the issue all the way to the Supreme Court.

I understand about closely held religious practices, beliefs, and traditions. But there are several things that should make such a change possible in this case.

One is the fact that this practice leads to cases of illness and even death, but preservation of life (and even health) is a central value in Judaism. That is why, for instance, we toast "L'chaim", which means "to life", and why we will put aside even the most important commandments in cases where life is at risk.

Another is that this particular practice has been discussed historically by various Jewish sages/rabbis and there are several legitimate, strong opinions that would allow for this practice to be altered.

Rather than comparing it to the question of Latin mass, one might compare it to other, more damaging beliefs and practices that the Catholic Church used to engage in, but have since been overruled. I won't enumerate them, but anyone familiar with Church history will be aware of certain attitudes and beliefs that are no longer taught, although some people would like to see such ideas brought back.

JMO