Out of place items in Ramsey home

[Mama2JML]

Ok, so if the intruders intent was a ransom collection, how did JB end up dead from "asphyxiation due to strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma?"
I mean why would a kidnapper be so careless with the victim that she would die, before even leaving the house? Careful enough to not leave fingerprints, hairs; but left some "clever little clues." It just defies logic, imo.

BBM

IF we presume the primary motive was $, then any number of mitigating factors could have come into play.

 

[pukasonqo2]

i was thinking of the lindbergh baby and leopold and loeb as cases were the victim was killed and the perps did continued demanding a ransom, but in both cases the victim was killed away from the house and the body buried or hidden




lupus est homini homo, non homo, non quom qualis sit novit

 

[Mama2JML]

I positioned the botched-abduction theory as the only IDI theory that made any sense in the IDI only thread. Are you considering that theory, now?

I haven't ruled out the possibility, but it isn't necessarily the scenario I favor.

They would be careless if they were inept amateurs. I could easily see friends of JAR looking to make a quick money grab committing an idiotic plan like this. Especially if they considered that if they were caught, their parents and the Ramsey's might cover for them.

"Inept amateurs" might have easily botched a kidnapping, but to be capable of all this case requires, one would have to possess characteristics that far outweigh any measure of ignorance.

 

[bettybaby00]

Ok, so if the intruders intent was a ransom collection, how did JB end up dead from "asphyxiation due to strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma?"
I mean why would a kidnapper be so careless with the victim that she would die, before even leaving the house? Careful enough to not leave fingerprints, hairs; but left some "clever little clues." It just defies Logic IMO

Yes it does, especially considering the RN.

Whats even more illogical is everything else that transpired.

If a kidnapper is inept enough to violently deliver a lethal head bash to his victim b/c she struggled and/or screamed in some way, and his plan has failed, why wouldn't he just flee the scene?

Instead, she's taken down 2 flights of stairs to a dead end space in the basement, where the intruder spends a significant amount of time staging the whole thing to look like a sexual assault/murder. I mean why not? everything he needed was right there in the handy paint tote.

I guess he was down there so long, and got so distracted that when he was finally ready to flee, he forgot about the RN he left on the back staircase.

:dunno:

 

[bettybaby00]

I haven't ruled out the possibility, but it isn't necessarily the scenario I favor.

Vendetta of some sort?

 

[Venom]

It still defies logic to me.
A kidnapper botching things up, and then staying around to stage things? Why strangle her? Why not just leave her?
I'm not even getting into the sexual assault, pineapple snack, redressing- they bring a new level of defying logic, imo.

 

[2 percent]

It still defies logic to me.
A kidnapper botching things up, and then staying around to stage things? Why strangle her? Why not just leave her?
I'm not even getting into the sexual assault, pineapple snack, redressing- they bring a new level of defying logic, imo.

Amen! :rocker:

 

[bettybaby00]

It still defies logic to me.
A kidnapper botching things up, and then staying around to stage things? Why strangle her? Why not just leave her?
I'm not even getting into the sexual assault, pineapple snack, redressing- they bring a new level of defying logic, imo.

Yea I was formulating a response that included everything and how that might fit within a kidnapping scenario, and then realized I was probably starting to sound like Kolar!

 

[THE BUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by THE BUNK
They would be careless if they were inept amateurs. I could easily see friends of JAR looking to make a quick money grab committing an idiotic plan like this. Especially if they considered that if they were caught, their parents and the Ramsey's might cover for them.
"Inept amateurs" might have easily botched a kidnapping, but to be capable of all this case requires, one would have to possess characteristics that far outweigh any measure of ignorance.

Really? What special capabilities would they need beyond that of an amateur?

Originally Posted by THE BUNK View Post
I positioned the botched-abduction theory as the only IDI theory that made any sense in the IDI only thread. Are you considering that theory, now?
I haven't ruled out the possibility, but it isn't necessarily the scenario I favor.

Why not? What does a botched kidnapping not explain?

 

[Mama2JML]

Really? What special capabilities would they need beyond that of an amateur?


Why not? What does a botched kidnapping not explain?

The stun gun marks, the strangulation, the head blow, the sexual assault, etc; everything that child endured was above and beyond all an abduction necessitates. How, exactly, do you surmise a kidnapping plan was botched?

 

[DeeDee249]

Thank you DeeDee! This clarifies a lot.

Sorry to be late to the boards and possibly slow to catch up, you all. I've been absorbing info too fast and I keep forgetting stuff. lol I really appreciate the clarifications about the lock.

It still makes no sense to me at all that Patsy would wrap presents in that room. :-/

I don't know whether you have seen the photos of that wine cellar, but NO ONE would wrap presents or even store presents in that room. The floor was covered with a kind of white mold typical of what leaches up from concrete in a damp location. The mold was thick enough that a footprint could be made in it.

 

[Meara]

<snip>

I am RDI, leaning towards PDI. But I believe we should be accurate about every detail.

<snip>

Also, can anyone tell me if there was a table in the WC? If not, I don't buy that PR wrapped presents down there. She'd have to sit on the floor. Look at the rest of the house -- imagine how dirty the floor probably was. It was a big house. She couldn't take the presents into any other room and lock the door?

<snip>

The likeliest scenario is that PR used a countertop in the basement - there were three - for wrapping gifts, and used the wine cellar for hiding gifts short term. HTH ~

 

[SweetT]

So is the story from LE that the kidnapper went into the wine cellar with JB as it was unlocked, then after getting in there, the lock fell down and trapped the perp in there and they had to use the window in the wine cellar to get out? Just asking

 

[bettybaby00]

So is the story from LE that the kidnapper went into the wine cellar with JB as it was unlocked, then after getting in there, the lock fell down and trapped the perp in there and they had to use the window in the wine cellar to get out? Just asking

I'm not really following what you're trying to say, but there is one thing that I can clarify.

First, unlike some basements, the One at the Rs was not one big large space, instead it was a large space divided into different areas and rooms.

The window referenced by LS as the means of entering into the house was in the "train room" which was a small room within the basement where BR had his train sets set up.

The room where JRB was found was the "wine cellar." Down a short hallway from the train room, and completely separate. The Rs didn't use it as such. It was a small unfinished room with no window (wouldn't be good for storing wine otherwise), and the only way to get in or out was through the door that had the wooden latch-type lock on the outside of the door.

The type of latch that can't "locked" once inside the room.

You can easily google pics of floor plans of the house for additional understanding.

Hope that helps

 

[Meara]

So is the story from LE that the kidnapper went into the wine cellar with JB as it was unlocked, then after getting in there, the lock fell down and trapped the perp in there and they had to use the window in the wine cellar to get out? Just asking

SweetT, understanding the house is key to understanding just about everything else. Here are two links to help you orient yourself to the floor plan. In the first one, the wine cellar is in the lower right corner, and the open window in the train room is on the left, marked as 1.

http://braveheart.users4.50megs.com/ramsey/bsmtcs.htm



Here are the floor plans for the whole house. The basement is the last one.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6502/primer2/primer10_blue.html


You can also google "Jonbenet Ramsey house floor plan" if you want to examine more versions.

 

[DeeDee249]

So is the story from LE that the kidnapper went into the wine cellar with JB as it was unlocked, then after getting in there, the lock fell down and trapped the perp in there and they had to use the window in the wine cellar to get out? Just asking

NO. No one in LE had that opinion. First of all, that room (the wine cellar) had NO windows. Officer French, the first LE to arrive that morning, saw the lock on the outside of the door and assumed NO ONE could be hiding in there because the lock only worked from the outside.
There was a window in nearby room -called the train room. It was behind the furnace and had a small break in the glass. JR admitted he was the one who broke the window the previous summer. The parents did not try to claim the window was broken by an intruder or used as an entry/exit point until detective for the defense Lou Smit said so. Then the whole R team jumped on that bandwagon- and never again mentioned JR breaking the window himself.

 

[Tadpole12]

window in boiler room:

http://b.heart.50megs.com/ramsey/Light_and_the_WR.htm

The furnace is the green "box" at the lower right with the pipe and flue coming out of the top. The white cylinder on it's left is the water heater. To the left of the WH is the window facing across the street toward the Stanton's house on the east wall of the Ramsey house. The white "box" to the far left is probably a chest freezer. The light in this photo appears to be from the window. Possibly there is a light over the camera person's head which would place it slightly left of anyone facing the windowless room door. The wing wall shown in the hallway photo is on the left of the picture. Looking again from the hallway toward the cellar door:

 

[ukrberserker23]

That was BR's Swiss army knife. It was found in the basement.

 

[Mama2JML]

That was BR's Swiss army knife. It was found in the basement.

I am not so sure this has been established. To which post is your reply directed?

 

[ukrberserker23]

It was to one of the posts on the first page. About the out of place items. The Swiss army knife was found in the basement, but it was supposed to be in an upstairs cabinet where LHP put it after she took it away from BR.