PA - Conner, 8, & Brinley Snyder, 4, found hung, later died, Kempton, 23 Sept 2019 *Arrest*

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  • #681
maybe they need to know dogs strength....the lead may be damaged or broken. need to ascertain how/when that damaged occurred? maybe this is a second attempt and cord had been used in previous attempt?

also....what were mum/teen brother doing whilst waiting for ambulance? did they attempt resuscitation?
 
  • #682
maybe they need to know dogs strength....the lead may be damaged or broken. need to ascertain how/when that damaged occurred? maybe this is a second attempt and cord had been used in previous attempt?

also....what were mum/teen brother doing whilst waiting for ambulance? did they attempt resuscitation?
The brother was not present at the time according to all available info and is not considered a suspect. We have no idea what the mother did immediately or while she waited for emergency services to arrive. There is no verified information that she did nothing at all though the rumor mill is rife with stories.
 
  • #683
It is also possible that forensics have shown evidence pertaining to a dog that has made them curious. As far as I recall, dog warrant was issued late.. maybe it had nothing at all to do with his weight or pulling capacity or chain...

This is exactly what was said in the warrant:

“By determining the dogs (sic) actual weight and sized (sic) utilizing a scale will assist in the criminal investigation,” Pennsylvania State Police Trooper Ian Keck wrote in the warrant, according to 69 Newes.

Mother of children found mysteriously hanging by dog leash in basement had two hidden cellphones, latest search warrant says

Also, here's a source just in case anyone wanted to see it that the other phones belonging to mom were only found after talking to her surviving son:

In an interview with Snyder’s only other child, a 17-year-old son, troopers were surprised to learn Snyder had multiple phones, the latest warrant notes. Asked if the finding meant that Snyder had failed to turn over the additional cellphones earlier, Berks County District Attorney John Adams said only: “Normally, people only have one cellphone and now we have three.”
Police serve new search warrant, turn up more phones at Berks home where children were found hanged
 
  • #684
This is exactly what was said in the warrant:

“By determining the dogs (sic) actual weight and sized (sic) utilizing a scale will assist in the criminal investigation,” Pennsylvania State Police Trooper Ian Keck wrote in the warrant, according to 69 Newes.

Mother of children found mysteriously hanging by dog leash in basement had two hidden cellphones, latest search warrant says

Also, here's a source just in case anyone wanted to see it that the other phones belonging to mom were only found after talking to her surviving son:

In an interview with Snyder’s only other child, a 17-year-old son, troopers were surprised to learn Snyder had multiple phones, the latest warrant notes. Asked if the finding meant that Snyder had failed to turn over the additional cellphones earlier, Berks County District Attorney John Adams said only: “Normally, people only have one cellphone and now we have three.”
Police serve new search warrant, turn up more phones at Berks home where children were found hanged
hmmm
size, not just weight
multiple phones may also indicate multiple online identities... (MPD???)
HIDDEN CELLPHONES
they're going after her hard.. why release that info when they could have omitted it?
Were they actually hidden or did they just request one and she gave them one?
Why are the actual warrants not available online? We have had them for other cases.. am I searching in the wrong place? original warrant was for all or any devices?
And why did they release the info that son told them? It must be hard enough for him?
Are they isolating the mother or playing some kind of game with her. That drives a barrier between them and puts him in the public spotlight...
Strange tactics and not sitting easy with me..
 
  • #685
My guess from reading descriptions is it would be like this, attached to itself by connectors to make sliding nooses

Yes, I know. My question was specifically about how the poster used the lead with her dog.....totally off-topic for my own curiosity (for my own home use with my dog). I took the conversation to PM to stop derailing the thread ;).
 
  • #686
multiple phones may also indicate multiple online identities... (MPD???)

MPD would be quite a stretch. I think it would be more likely someone would have multiple phones to create fake identities to do online bullying.....perhaps to create a narrative.
 
  • #687
MPD would be quite a stretch. I think it would be more likely someone would have multiple phones to create fake identities to do online bullying.....perhaps to create a narrative.

Well pick me up from the floor. *thud*
 
  • #688
Fast enough except for apple.
My concerns about this is that had it been a pre-meditated murder there is no way to know who it was that actually used the item, may look like a child used it but nothing to prove it wasn't an adult using the child's x-box or laptop or ipad or whatever, is there?
Exactly! If there is some suicide note on the iPad, it would be typed out and anyone (mother) could have written it. MOO
 
  • #689
Exactly! If there is some suicide note on the iPad, it would be typed out and anyone (mother) could have written it. MOO

If you look at the list of evidentiary items taken 'note' is separate to the ipad so if it was purported to be a suicide note then I think it was on paper not on the ipad. I guess someone could print out a suicide note if they had a printer but I kinda think that would be unlikely and arouse suspicions. Its not something I think a child would do.

Of course the note could just be please put your dishes in the sink after your snack or tidy your rooms when you get home. And a suicide note could be on the ipad.

Generally though I agree it is hard to know who has used an ipad unless they have previously logged into social media accounts that belong to them - like instagram or facebook.
 
  • #690
The issue with the phones is that she knew she had all of those phones so, when LE said something along the lines of "we need your phone", she knew she had more than one and that she should've gave them all up.
 
  • #691
MPD would be quite a stretch. I think it would be more likely someone would have multiple phones to create fake identities to do online bullying.....perhaps to create a narrative.
Maybe not.
 
  • #692
It had to be. Otherwise I don’t see that they could have been revived enough for life support.

I'm not so sure about this. I have a vague recollection of once reading about how hanging isn't always a surefire method of execution which is one reason it was outlawed as cruel, so I did a little Googling (God help me if something happens to me, my search history!) very carefully and found out that 68% of attempted suicides by hanging fail. So even assuming that many of those are because of human intervention, others fail because the noose isn't tight enough or there isn't enough height or whatever. I feel terrible speculating about this. But I believe it's possible that they were able to be revived because the mechanics of the hanging weren't exact rather than because of a super fast panicked intervention by a loving mother.
 
  • #693
You know I'm not well versed in brain death. Considering they were "revived" on scene, is it possible they were brain dead before they were placed on life support? Kept on life support for 3 days to aid in the investigation, talk about/do organ donation?
 
  • #694
You know I'm not well versed in brain death. Considering they were "revived" on scene, is it possible they were brain dead before they were placed on life support? Kept on life support for 3 days to aid in the investigation, talk about/do organ donation?

I think that's highly possible (but I'm not a medical professional).
 
  • #695
You know I'm not well versed in brain death. Considering they were "revived" on scene, is it possible they were brain dead before they were placed on life support? Kept on life support for 3 days to aid in the investigation, talk about/do organ donation?
yes. It seems likely.. A diagnosis of brain death would not have been made immediately.
 
  • #696
I'm not so sure about this. I have a vague recollection of once reading about how hanging isn't always a surefire method of execution which is one reason it was outlawed as cruel, so I did a little Googling (God help me if something happens to me, my search history!) very carefully and found out that 68% of attempted suicides by hanging fail. So even assuming that many of those are because of human intervention, others fail because the noose isn't tight enough or there isn't enough height or whatever. I feel terrible speculating about this. But I believe it's possible that they were able to be revived because the mechanics of the hanging weren't exact rather than because of a super fast panicked intervention by a loving mother.
BBM No, it's definitely not a surefire way and it's extremely rare for it to be quick. The weight of the person is factored into the appropriate drop in feet & inches. I did a Google search about this days ago and found a table showing the correct drop required per the weight of the person. This is a quote from the article I read.
"Clark reports estimates that brain death will occur in around 6 minutes and whole body death normally within 10-15 minutes. He also mentions that this time is very variable, with official reports of from 3-25 minutes for total death to have occurred".
 
  • #697
Some more info on brain death and organ donation. I tried focusing it on donation after brain death and with next-of-kin authorization as opposed to first-person authorization as C & B were minors:

Brain Death – If the tests done in the ICU show brain activity and blood flowing through the brain, the patient is in a coma. But if tests show no brain activity or blood supply, the brain has been destroyed and will never work again. If the tests show the brain is no longer alive, the doctor approaches the family and explains that the Brain death occurs when the brain is severely damaged by trauma or illness. A physician declares brain death when testing determines that there is an absence of electrical activity in the brain, no blood flow to the brain, and no brain function. Without brain function, the rest of the body can't survive. Consequently, a ventilator or breathing machine is used to keep other organs functioning – if consent to donate is given – while recipients are located for the donated organs.

Referral/Evaluation – When brain death is declared, a donation clinical specialist assesses if the patient is medically suitable for organ and/or tissue donation. The ventilator provides oxygen to the major organs, even after the patient dies.

Authorization – After telling the family the patient has died and determining that the patient is a suitable donor, the organ donation coordinator works with the family to ensure that the opportunity to donate is offered to those eligible. Once a family decides to donate, an authorization form is signed by the next-of-kin. Now, the patient is called a "donor." All hospital costs from this point are paid by the organ donation center.

Organ Placement – When next-of-kin authorization is given, the donor's blood type, height, weight and hospital are entered into a national database (UNOS) to find patients awaiting transplants who best match the donor's heart, lungs, liver, kidneys and pancreas. Recipients for corneas (eyes), skin and bones can be found a short time later.

Organ Recovery – A surgical team then removes the donor's organ for the patient. Like other operations, this surgery takes place in an operating room. The organ(s) is then taken to the transplant center where a recipient(s) is waiting.

Funeral Arrangements – After donation, the donor is taken to a funeral home. Generally, funeral services are not delayed by donation, and donation itself does not prevent an open-casket funeral.

Follow-up – About two weeks after the funeral, the donor's family receives a letter from the donation center. The letter tells where organs and tissues went and shares some basic information about the people who received them. Names of donors and recipients are kept confidential, but donor families can get updates about recipients any time by calling the donation center. Donor families usually enjoy getting letters from recipients so they know how the patients are doing.

Source: Organ Donation Process
 
  • #698
Some more info on brain death and organ donation. I tried focusing it on donation after brain death and with next-of-kin authorization as opposed to first-person authorization as C & B were minors:

Brain Death – If the tests done in the ICU show brain activity and blood flowing through the brain, the patient is in a coma. But if tests show no brain activity or blood supply, the brain has been destroyed and will never work again. If the tests show the brain is no longer alive, the doctor approaches the family and explains that the Brain death occurs when the brain is severely damaged by trauma or illness. A physician declares brain death when testing determines that there is an absence of electrical activity in the brain, no blood flow to the brain, and no brain function. Without brain function, the rest of the body can't survive. Consequently, a ventilator or breathing machine is used to keep other organs functioning – if consent to donate is given – while recipients are located for the donated organs.

Referral/Evaluation – When brain death is declared, a donation clinical specialist assesses if the patient is medically suitable for organ and/or tissue donation. The ventilator provides oxygen to the major organs, even after the patient dies.

Authorization – After telling the family the patient has died and determining that the patient is a suitable donor, the organ donation coordinator works with the family to ensure that the opportunity to donate is offered to those eligible. Once a family decides to donate, an authorization form is signed by the next-of-kin. Now, the patient is called a "donor." All hospital costs from this point are paid by the organ donation center.

Organ Placement – When next-of-kin authorization is given, the donor's blood type, height, weight and hospital are entered into a national database (UNOS) to find patients awaiting transplants who best match the donor's heart, lungs, liver, kidneys and pancreas. Recipients for corneas (eyes), skin and bones can be found a short time later.

Organ Recovery – A surgical team then removes the donor's organ for the patient. Like other operations, this surgery takes place in an operating room. The organ(s) is then taken to the transplant center where a recipient(s) is waiting.

Funeral Arrangements – After donation, the donor is taken to a funeral home. Generally, funeral services are not delayed by donation, and donation itself does not prevent an open-casket funeral.

Follow-up – About two weeks after the funeral, the donor's family receives a letter from the donation center. The letter tells where organs and tissues went and shares some basic information about the people who received them. Names of donors and recipients are kept confidential, but donor families can get updates about recipients any time by calling the donation center. Donor families usually enjoy getting letters from recipients so they know how the patients are doing.

Source: Organ Donation Process
Thanks for this information.
When the patient is a suspected murder victim, which takes precedence, full autopsy of all organs or the act of donation?
Which state laws , if any are applicable to this decision?
Organs may well show evidence of a history of abuse...
Is there a medico legal or ethical consideration here?
 
  • #699
I'm not so sure about this. I have a vague recollection of once reading about how hanging isn't always a surefire method of execution which is one reason it was outlawed as cruel, so I did a little Googling (God help me if something happens to me, my search history!) very carefully and found out that 68% of attempted suicides by hanging fail. So even assuming that many of those are because of human intervention, others fail because the noose isn't tight enough or there isn't enough height or whatever. I feel terrible speculating about this. But I believe it's possible that they were able to be revived because the mechanics of the hanging weren't exact rather than because of a super fast panicked intervention by a loving mother.
What I understood Gitana to be saying was that they had to have been found sooner (whether due to faulty mechanism taking longer, or less elapsed time) vs. later, where they would be cold and thereby beyond revival.
ETA: I've gone back to read th line of thought, and I am not certain I can make any claims for anything anyone is saying. Sorry for butting in!
 
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  • #700
Has anyone seen any update on the dog? Have LE located it?

I’m glad to see this is being investigated thoroughly - I do not believe this is a suicide situation IMO
 
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