PA - Conner, 8, & Brinley Snyder, 4, found hung, later died, Kempton, 23 Sept 2019 *Arrest*

[claudianunes]

You know I'm not well versed in brain death. Considering they were "revived" on scene, is it possible they were brain dead before they were placed on life support? Kept on life support for 3 days to aid in the investigation, talk about/do organ donation?

Yes, most likely.

 

[Kittybunny]

BBM No, it's definitely not a surefire way and it's extremely rare for it to be quick. The weight of the person is factored into the appropriate drop in feet & inches. I did a Google search about this days ago and found a table showing the correct drop required per the weight of the person. This is a quote from the article I read.
"Clark reports estimates that brain death will occur in around 6 minutes and whole body death normally within 10-15 minutes. He also mentions that this time is very variable, with official reports of from 3-25 minutes for total death to have occurred".

Great find, thank you.

 

[Wild Rose]

This is exactly what was said in the warrant:

“By determining the dogs (sic) actual weight and sized (sic) utilizing a scale will assist in the criminal investigation,” Pennsylvania State Police Trooper Ian Keck wrote in the warrant, according to 69 Newes.

Mother of children found mysteriously hanging by dog leash in basement had two hidden cellphones, latest search warrant says

Also, here's a source just in case anyone wanted to see it that the other phones belonging to mom were only found after talking to her surviving son:

In an interview with Snyder’s only other child, a 17-year-old son, troopers were surprised to learn Snyder had multiple phones, the latest warrant notes. Asked if the finding meant that Snyder had failed to turn over the additional cellphones earlier, Berks County District Attorney John Adams said only: “Normally, people only have one cellphone and now we have three.”
Police serve new search warrant, turn up more phones at Berks home where children were found hanged

It almost sounds like they requested her phone, she complied and they didn't ask for all her phones as typically they ask for one phone. IDK?

 

[Kittybunny]

What I understood Gitana to be saying was that they had to have been found sooner (whether due to faulty mechanism taking longer, or less elapsed time) vs. later, where they would be cold and thereby beyond revival.
ETA: I've gone back to read th line of thought, and I am not certain I can make any claims for anything anyone is saying. Sorry for butting in!

Not butting in, no worries! I definitely agree that obviously it was certainly before the point in time where they would be cold. I think I responded to the only possibility that she called 911 immediately and her post just triggered the thought that she could have waited longer, like 10 minutes, or 30 minutes even but because of the circumstances it resulted in cardiac revival (though I see that others have posted that it's possible they were already brain dead).

 

[kittythehare]

Has anyone seen any update on the dog? Have LE located it?

I’m glad to see this is being investigated thoroughly - I do not believe this is a suicide situation IMO

Dog gone.
Somewhere
probably very strange for dog ... no idea

 

[Backstroke10]

Great find, thank you.

This was also part of the article. I'm thinking this is what happened. MOO
Short drop/simple suspension;
"This is probably the simplest form of hanging, and although unconsciousness is quick, it may not be instant, and thus may or may not be a totally painless method. It should also be noted that if the process is interrupted before completion (e.g. someone discovers the hanging and loosens the knot), brain damage is a likely result.
The rope needs to be arranged so that it will tighten around the neck. It could be suspended from a hook, or over a rafter and secured to something else tightly. In films people are seen arranging the rope with them standing on a chair, then kicking the chair away. However, this is not necessary.

 

[Backstroke10]

Great find, thank you.

Thanks Kittybunny. It's actually quite disturbing how these websites give details on how to do it. I'm very curious what the browsing history will be on the computers, phones, etc. MOO

 

[SuziQ]

MPD would be quite a stretch. I think it would be more likely someone would have multiple phones to create fake identities to do online bullying.....perhaps to create a narrative.

Oh cr*p!

 

[cujenn81]

This case is heartbreaking any way you look at it. And the more I think about it, the more heartbreaking it feels. Because even if the investigation reveals that a third party was involved (& I’ll be honest, I believe that there was), I think it will be incredibly hard, if not impossible, to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. Unless the third party confesses, of course... which makes me physically ill.

 

[NoSI]

Thanks for this information.
When the patient is a suspected murder victim, which takes precedence, full autopsy of all organs or the act of donation?
Which state laws , if any are applicable to this decision?
Organs may well show evidence of a history of abuse...
Is there a medico legal or ethical consideration here?

Yup, i would say case is full of medicolegal and ethical considerations. I am no expert, but would assume that autopsy would take precedence. Wondering if they can "take" some organs while performing toxicology testing etc. on other organs and/or tissues. Very thought-provoking questions.

 

[TTF14]

Yup, i would say case is full of medicolegal and ethical considerations. I am no expert, but would assume that autopsy would take precedence. Wondering if they can "take" some organs while performing toxicology testing etc. on other organs and/or tissues. Very thought-provoking questions.

Agree, very thought-provoking. Would make a good Law & Order episode.

 

[NoSI]

Thanks for this information.
When the patient is a suspected murder victim, which takes precedence, full autopsy of all organs or the act of donation?
Which state laws , if any are applicable to this decision?
Organs may well show evidence of a history of abuse...
Is there a medico legal or ethical consideration here?

I just looked through my textbooks. I have book on Forensic Nursing Science and it discusses this topic extensively. I will try to read through it and post applicable info as soon as I am able. Work next 3 days, but hopefully can get to it tomorrow.

 

[Seattle1]

It almost sounds like they requested her phone, she complied and they didn't ask for all her phones as typically they ask for one phone. IDK?

I believe the investigator added in the media report with search warrant info that most people only have one cell phone.

I think that's a reasonable assumption. (Although I have two -- one provided by work, second is personal).

 

[kittythehare]

This case is heartbreaking any way you look at it. And the more I think about it, the more heartbreaking it feels. Because even if the investigation reveals that a third party was involved (& I’ll be honest, I believe that there was), I think it will be incredibly hard, if not impossible, to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. Unless the third party confesses, of course... which makes me physically ill.

Cujenn, what is it that makes you think another person involved.. I did as well, but less sure now... much less?

 

[Seattle1]

I agree that electronic forensics will probably unlock the mystery.

I think most have come to understand via Dateline, 20/20, Law & Order, etc. that deleting info on your computer does not mean it's gone forever, but are not aware that the same applies to cell phones.

When I hear about phone plus spare, and also a smashed phone, I think it's because they are in use.

i.e., one identity per phone, one corresponding social media app.,.....

MOO

 

[gitana1]

I'm not so sure about this. I have a vague recollection of once reading about how hanging isn't always a surefire method of execution which is one reason it was outlawed as cruel, so I did a little Googling (God help me if something happens to me, my search history!) very carefully and found out that 68% of attempted suicides by hanging fail. So even assuming that many of those are because of human intervention, others fail because the noose isn't tight enough or there isn't enough height or whatever. I feel terrible speculating about this. But I believe it's possible that they were able to be revived because the mechanics of the hanging weren't exact rather than because of a super fast panicked intervention by a loving mother.

I didn’t understand you at first. I do know. Holy heck. So we don’t even know how long they suffered and were slowly strangling?

That’s a terrible thought. One I thankfully can’t comprehend well.

 

[gitana1]

What I understood Gitana to be saying was that they had to have been found sooner (whether due to faulty mechanism taking longer, or less elapsed time) vs. later, where they would be cold and thereby beyond revival.
ETA: I've gone back to read th line of thought, and I am not certain I can make any claims for anything anyone is saying. Sorry for butting in!

Yes that’s sort of what I was saying! Please feel free!

 

[katydid23]

It almost sounds like they requested her phone, she complied and they didn't ask for all her phones as typically they ask for one phone. IDK?

If police were investigating my children's deaths, and I had nothing personally to hide, I'd hand over ALL my phones, even if they had only asked for my 'phone.' I wouldn't hide other phones because I'd want them to have full investigation possibilities. JMOI

 

[katydid23]

The possible hand-written note, if true, really worries me. Because if this woman is cunning, then there is a reason she did things the way she did. Hypothetically speaking....

Kids say and write the darnedest things. They also write what ever anyone asks them to, as they are easily tricked. JMO

 

[Vaccine]

Where is link?

https://www.fox29.com/news/911-dispatch-recordings-suggest-boy-found-dead-in-berks-county-home-w