PA PA - District Attorney Ray Gricar Mysteriously Disappeared - Bellefonte 15 April 2005 #18

[J. J. in Phila]

20/20 Vision could have been a signal to someone that this was a voluntary departure, a way of saying **I'm okay** without saying it directly. The recipient would have to be someone who had read the book and knew RFG read it as well.

Chief Wiley is interesting because RFG seems to have done more than mention it once and he was talking about it with others well after the fact.

 

[Betty P]

How would anybody, other than RFG, know if there were copies of whatever was on the laptop. Even in 2005, you had backup computers (which RFG did), floppy disks, CD, flash drives, and separate drives, not to mention paper copies.

Why did Ray take the laptop with him? The only reason I can come up with is he wanted it to take notes during his meeting. It's possible that whomever killed him saw the laptop and disposed of it, just to make sure there was nothing incriminating left behind.

I can't think of a reason for bringing the laptop if he was just having a fling with some woman. I think he went to Lewisburg with the intention of meeting someone, possibly a woman. I don't think it was because he was having a fling.

If he was being lured to Lewisburg to be murdered by a drug gang or cartel he was investigating, I agree with the version of the story that claims he was lured with the promise of some information to help the investigation, hence the laptop. Going to the motel, as far as he knew, was to have the meeting and share information. It's possible the woman made him throw out the laptop before going to the motel. If so, it possibly means the motel was on the other side of the river from Lewisburg.

 

[DeeperSecrets]

I've also wondered about his lack of attachment to a home, car, etc. He had been through 2 divorces already, the last one being rather difficult. JMO, he was averse to marrying again, of being financially and legally attached to anyone. He was somewhat young to be retiring. He could have considered offers for other, possibly more lucrative work after retirement. But, like the other options, he didn't need to traumatize his friends and family by staging a suspicious disappearance to do that. He didn't seem to have a flair for drama in his life before disappearing.

There was also another interesting item in the police file that Rebecca Knight found. It was a composite drawing of a man. It's not known who he was or how he was seen to be involved in Ray's disappearance that day.

https://www.centredaily.com/news/local/community/article250664559.html

Final Argument Podcast

Final Argument explores shortcomings in the investigation of Ray Gricar’s 2005 disappearance using evidence from the police files that has never before been released to the public.

raygricar.com

 

[Betty P]

Most of the time someone goes missing, look at their lover.

LE did search her home. If she had killed him there, its likely they would have noticed some evidence. Ms. Fornicola is a petite woman. It seems like she would have a very difficult time moving a deceased man's body in and out of a car without assistance. If she had used the mini-Cooper to transport Ray's body, wouldn't LE have found the evidence? They searched the car pretty thoroughly.

JMO

 

[Betty P]

Who is that? (Referring to the photo linked of a man with grey hair and glasses, labeled "Tim".

 

[CuriousCricket]

If he was being lured to Lewisburg to be murdered by a drug gang or cartel he was investigating, I agree with the version of the story that claims he was lured with the promise of some information to help the investigation, hence the laptop. Going to the motel, as far as he knew, was to have the meeting and share information. It's possible the woman made him throw out the laptop before going to the motel. If so, it possibly means the motel was on the other side of the river from Lewisburg.

Where, when has a motel ever been mentioned?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Why did Ray take the laptop with him? The only reason I can come up with is he wanted it to take notes during his meeting. It's possible that whomever killed him saw the laptop and disposed of it, just to make sure there was nothing incriminating left behind.

Snipped for emphasis.

The reason was probably that he wanted to toss the laptop. We know he did not want the hard drive to be readable.

He was also not investigating a drug cartel. One was being prosecuted by the state AG's Office, but I think all the defendants were in jail at that point.

 

[Betty P]

Where, when has a motel ever been mentioned?

It's in a paywalled article from 2020 done by a PennLive reporter who learned of the Informant and actually met and interviewed him a couple of times.

In his interviews with friends, investigators, etc. involved in Ray's case, someone gave him the name of the Informant who shared information about Ray's disappearance. The Informant was interviewed and checked out by LE, etc. He claimed he was told about Ray's fate by a cellmate in prison who was involved in the murder. The Informant received no special treatment for sharing the story. The names he gave in relating the story were legit criminals.

The cellmate who told the Informant the story claimed he worked for some organized crime people in PA.

The hunt for Ray Gricar: 15 years of clues, theories and the search for answers

Could an informant hold the key to solving the mystery of the missing Centre County district attorney?

www.pennlive.com

<modsnip: Removed direct quote from paywalled article. Paraphrasing is fine but direct quotes are not.>

The informant's cellmate who told the story claimed to have been contracted by the drug ring leaders to kill the guy who was investigating them - Ray. This was a drug ring that was operating around State College, PA. The cellmate and his friend (referred to as "the two men") had experience in contracting with criminals to kidnap and murder people and commit other dangerous crimes. The cellmate's criminal record validated that type of criminal activity.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Who is that? (Referring to the photo linked of a man with grey hair and glasses, labeled "Tim".

Tim Curry, the former Penn State athletic director.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It's in a paywalled article from 2020 done by a PennLive reporter who learned of the Informant and actually met and interviewed him a couple of times.

In his interviews with friends, investigators, etc. involved in Ray's case, someone gave him the name of the Informant who shared information about Ray's disappearance. The Informant was interviewed and checked out by LE, etc. He claimed he was told about Ray's fate by a cellmate in prison who was involved in the murder. The Informant received no special treatment for sharing the story. The names he gave in relating the story were legit criminals.

The cellmate who told the Informant the story claimed he worked for some organized crime people in PA.

The hunt for Ray Gricar: 15 years of clues, theories and the search for answers

Could an informant hold the key to solving the mystery of the missing Centre County district attorney?

www.pennlive.com

The informant's cellmate who told the story claimed to have been contracted by the drug ring leaders to kill the guy who was investigating them - Ray. This was a drug ring that was operating around State College, PA. The cellmate and his friend (referred to as "the two men") had experience in contracting with criminals to kidnap and murder people and commit other dangerous crimes. The cellmate's criminal record validated that type of criminal activity.

Whole bunch of problems, beginning with no mine shaft with in the immediate area, a 20 mile or so radius.

No evidence of anyone trying to contact RFG to lure him.


Most importantly, no drug case. Further, the DA's Office in Centre County did not investigate anyone. They don't even have detectives.

This actually sounds like an earlier murder scenario of mine that was abandoned after the computer searches and RFG asking about getting rid of the date was revealed. The guy make have actually concocted it by reading some of my old posts on another board.

 

[Betty P]

Whole bunch of problems, beginning with no mine shaft with in the immediate area, a 20 mile or so radius.

No evidence of anyone trying to contact RFG to lure him.


Most importantly, no drug case. Further, the DA's Office in Centre County did not investigate anyone. They don't even have detectives.

This actually sounds like an earlier murder scenario of mine that was abandoned after the computer searches and RFG asking about getting rid of the date was revealed. The guy make have actually concocted it by reading some of my old posts on another board.

The reporter said the drug investigation was legit, it happened, but the reporter wasn't sure if that was the particular drug case the Informant was referring to.

Re contacting RFG to lure him, it wouldn't be surprising that they found no evidence of someone trying to contact him. I still think RFG had a burner cell phone that was never found. Back then, even the FBI wouldn't have been able to identify and track a burner cell phone. They've gotten better at that, especially in the last couple of years, but in 2005, no.

IIRC, the Informant first contacted LE fairly early in the investigation. The names he gave of the people involved (the names and records of the cellmate and his associates), were checked out by LE and were legit criminals with records that supported this activity. So this guy was naming names and they were accurate, according to LE.

 

[CuriousCricket]

The reporter said the drug investigation was legit, it happened, but the reporter wasn't sure if that was the particular drug case the Informant was referring to.

Re contacting RFG to lure him, it wouldn't be surprising that they found no evidence of someone trying to contact him. I still think RFG had a burner cell phone that was never found. Back then, even the FBI wouldn't have been able to identify and track a burner cell phone. They've gotten better at that, especially in the last couple of years, but in 2005, no.

IIRC, the Informant first contacted LE fairly early in the investigation. The names he gave of the people involved (the names and records of the cellmate and his associates), were checked out by LE and were legit criminals with records that supported this activity. So this guy was naming names and they were accurate, according to LE.

Sadly, this scenario makes more sense than the walking away. The mineshaft could have been mis-remembering or mis-labeling an old cistern or well.

The lack of serious searching for RFG seems to make this possibility less likely, in my mind. Surely, if LE even suspected it was drug related and a revenge killing, the response would have been more?

The no sign of luring via Internet or phone is also ok with me as I've hung out in a courthouse and watched the comings and goings. RFG could have been approached quietly and the message passed to him, verbally or note. Although, I feel pretty strongly that IF that happened, RFG would have told someone where he was and what was happening. It's not a meeting he would have taken without someone in his office or working on the case being told, IMO.

Well, I've ordered 20/20 Vision and am looking forward to reading it.

Just wondering about RFG's personality -- would he have enjoyed "messing" with people around him by pulling off a 4/15 disappearance 20 years after the other disappearance. And was there any evidence that Mel Wiley did not walk away?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The reporter said the drug investigation was legit, it happened, but the reporter wasn't sure if that was the particular drug case the Informant was referring to.

Re contacting RFG to lure him, it wouldn't be surprising that they found no evidence of someone trying to contact him. I still think RFG had a burner cell phone that was never found. Back then, even the FBI wouldn't have been able to identify and track a burner cell phone. They've gotten better at that, especially in the last couple of years, but in 2005, no.

IIRC, the Informant first contacted LE fairly early in the investigation. The names he gave of the people involved (the names and records of the cellmate and his associates), were checked out by LE and were legit criminals with records that supported this activity. So this guy was naming names and they were accurate, according to LE.

There was no "investigation" or prosecution being handled by the Centre County DA's Office.

Even if RFG had a burner, how did the person calling him know the number?

Just being a criminal does not equal involvement with RFG.

 

[minazoe]

this is the reason I think Ray and Patty might have been breaking up..how do we know there was I love you, take out the dog notes and all this stuff? How do we know what was said in those calls? what she said to her brother..didn't you say that Ray wouldn't take a call from her at the office where they both worked?

oh a public breakup like this where two people work together sounds so humiliating and might cause Ray to have to step down anyway even though he was retiring. Going into the office at night when there was no work to do..slamming the door..being sad and upset.
I know I sound nuts but I guess I could be proven wrong maybe with phone records..I still have probs with the actual sightings and timelines. PF said Ray wanted her to retire too etc...but all this is heresy. we don't know it's true, we don't know what all could have been really going on. I know she just looks like the nicest most innocent person, and Ray is obviously brilliant and a complete gentleman. So how could something like domestic murder/ violence even happen?

wouldn't be the first time.

my version

he can't sleep goes to office
decides to leave
tries to sleep when she's not around
they are fighting and having phone arguments
Ray is in Lewisberg and is trying to sort out the breakup
he meets the woman he is seen with.
he talks on a phone PF doesn't know he has

he is last seen TAKING HIS CAR not moving it to the lot across the street and is accidentally killed or killed in a rage situation upon returning home.
PF calls he brother , they hide Ray's body somewhere and he returns the Car to Lewisberg ( is there even time? )

is it even possible Ray went home unseen by cameras or neighbors? I just don't like the way she fashions herself to look like Ray's ex wife .it's weird and creepy ( sorry it is) and I just hope Ray is not a victim. mOO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

this is the reason I think Ray and Patty might have been breaking up..how do we know there was I love you, take out the dog notes and all this stuff? How do we know what was said in those calls? what she said to her brother..didn't you say that Ray wouldn't take a call from her at the office where they both worked?

oh a public breakup like this where two people work together sounds so humiliating and might cause Ray to have to step down anyway even though he was retiring. Going into the office at night when there was no work to do..slamming the door..being sad and upset.
I know I sound nuts but I guess I could be proven wrong maybe with phone records..I still have probs with the actual sightings and timelines. PF said Ray wanted her to retire too etc...but all this is heresy. we don't know it's true, we don't know what all could have been really going on. I know she just looks like the nicest most innocent person, and Ray is obviously brilliant and a complete gentleman. So how could something like domestic murder/ violence even happen?

wouldn't be the first time.

my version

he can't sleep goes to office
decides to leave
tries to sleep when she's not around
they are fighting and having phone arguments
Ray is in Lewisberg and is trying to sort out the breakup
he meets the woman he is seen with.
he talks on a phone PF doesn't know he has

he is last seen TAKING HIS CAR not moving it to the lot across the street and is accidentally killed or killed in a rage situation upon returning home.
PF calls he brother , they hide Ray's body somewhere and he returns the Car to Lewisberg ( is there even time? )

is it even possible Ray went home unseen by cameras or neighbors? I just don't like the way she fashions herself to look like Ray's ex wife .it's weird and creepy ( sorry it is) and I just hope Ray is not a victim. mOO

We know the length of of the 11:12 AM call from RFG to PEF on 4/5/05. One minute. Not enough time for an argument. Further, how could anyone know that RFG didn't use his cellphone, or a credit card, on his way back to Bellefonte?

If PEF's brother, drives to Bellefonte and then drives the Mini back to Lewisburg, how does he get back to Bellefonte? Who hides the body, since PEF is calling from the house on the landline?

Other than PEF, you need:

1. Someone to drive the car to Lewisburg.

2. Someone to pick up the guy who drove the car to Lewisburg.

3. Someone to hide the body, at night, so well that it can't be found in 18 years. It has to be done without planning.

The scenario just does not work.

I will add another point. The three witnesses from 4/16/05 have to be wrong.

 

[CuriousCricket]

From Newspapers.com (paywall) I have found articles in the Centre Daily Times discussing the increasing number of drug arrests, especially Heroin. Some of the articles dated from January and into March 2005. A May 11, 2005, article discussed the controversial "mandatory minimum of four years" sentence for those selling drugs. The DA had discretion on whether to invoke the 4 years. A statement from Ray Gricar from January 2005 was printed in which he said he sought the mandatory sentence in all but rare circumstances. One such time would have been if RFG thought the case was weak.

Drug usage and overdoses were increasing according to articles, and Penn State was one location mentioned.

As another coincidence, the case RFG had on his schedule for Monday, April 18, was a 9:30 a.m. drug case. Following his disappearance on April 15-16, I suspect that case and the people involved were investigated intensely.

On a different subject, after reading the papers about RFG's disappearance, it sounds as though it was investigated thoroughly. Or at least everyone was on the case that should have been, including the FBI and state police. Even a psychic. From reports, there was just absolutely nothing to go on, no leads.

​

 

[CuriousCricket]

The three witnesses from 4/16/05 have to be wrong.

If RFG was killed on Friday (by anyone), the witnesses certainly do have to be wrong. Any idea where they are today? What has happened in their lives in the past 19 years?

Because if all three were telling the same story, it would almost certainly mean their story was a mid-direction. If the disappearance happened to be drug related, then the 3 were probably involved in drugs. Any arrests? Overdoses? Seedy stories? Where are they now?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

If RFG was killed on Friday (by anyone), the witnesses certainly do have to be wrong. Any idea where they are today? What has happened in their lives in the past 19 years?

Because if all three were telling the same story, it would almost certainly mean their story was a mid-direction. If the disappearance happened to be drug related, then the 3 were probably involved in drugs. Any arrests? Overdoses? Seedy stories? Where are they now?

18 years, but as of about 18 months ago, Craig Bennett still owned the SoS. As far as I know, he still does.

He is a local resident that graduated from Penn's Wharton School.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

As another coincidence, the case RFG had on his schedule for Monday, April 18, was a 9:30 a.m. drug case. Following his disappearance on April 15-16, I suspect that case and the people involved were investigated intensely.

​

Snipped for emphasis.

No. RFG was going to testify in a pending case that the ADA handling it did not have a conflict of interest with a specific witness. If the judge thought so, he would take over the examination of the witness.

 

[minazoe]

We know the length of of the 11:12 AM call from RFG to PEF on 4/5/05. One minute. Not enough time for an argument. Further, how could anyone know that RFG didn't use his cellphone, or a credit card, on his way back to Bellefonte?

If PEF's brother, drives to Bellefonte and then drives the Mini back to Lewisburg, how does he get back to Bellefonte? Who hides the body, since PEF is calling from the house on the landline?

Other than PEF, you need:

1. Someone to drive the car to Lewisburg.

2. Someone to pick up the guy who drove the car to Lewisburg.

3. Someone to hide the body, at night, so well that it can't be found in 18 years. It has to be done without planning.

The scenario just does not work.

I will add another point. The three witnesses from 4/16/05 have to be wrong.

yes but to me most of these can be done..

someone drives the car back
ray is in the yard or basement or in another car or barrel at this point..at this point they are not gonna search the house.
someone does a favor and picks up the driver or he takes a train ( is there a train?)
3 witnesses are wrong

dammit! I know I'm crazy wrong..but I can't help it!!! my nose goes to his personal life. mOO