PA - Ellen Greenberg, 27, Philly teacher’s brutal stabbing, ruled suicide but possible homicide, Jan 2011

[Occam's Zebra]

The idea that this was a suicide has never made sense. It was based on believing SG's assertion that EG was in the apartment alone and alive when he left for the gym, and that the door was locked from the inside when he returned. It is not based on any evidence, biomechanics, or physics, that's for certain.

They appeared to be home together for hours before he went to the gym (she swiped in at 1:23 pm and he swiped in half an hour later), and no one heard from EG after around 1:45 pm (IMHO, could be remembering this wrong but it's somewhere around that time). SG left for the gym three hours after that. This is plenty of time to get into a heated argument, possibly about their relationship (EG was not wearing her engagement ring anymore and had supposedly spoken with her parents about moving back in with them), which ends in one party becoming overwhelmed with rage and stabbing the other party 20 times.

Then there's time for said party to go about figuring out a way to claim it's not a homicide, cleaning up as needed, possibly moving the body, and setting the scene for the suicide claim.

The 911 call and all of SG's drivel about her mental health are so very fake. But he is a white, straight, privileged man from a connected family, so people believed him.

IMHO MOO EG was in an abusive relationship with SG and trying to get out, which can be deadly. And in this case, it was.

 

[MrEmc]

The idea that this was a suicide has never made sense. It was based on believing SG's assertion that EG was in the apartment alone and alive when he left for the gym, and that the door was locked from the inside when he returned. It is not based on any evidence, biomechanics, or physics, that's for certain.

(bold above mine)

Not entirely true. Medical Examiner Lindsay Simon considered many other factors:

1. No defensive wounds on Ellen:

"After reviewing the likely causes for a lack of defensive wounds, it is the opinion of the undersigned that there is no reasonable explanation for the lack of defensive wounds on Ellen's body."

page 31: https://dig.abclocal.go.com/wpvi/pdf/101325-wpvi-ellen-greenberg-death-dr-simon-review-PDF.pdf

2. Ellen's mental state:

"She (Ellen) expressed this anxiety about her grades to friends, coworkers, and her fiance in the hours leading up to her death."

page 32: https://dig.abclocal.go.com/wpvi/pdf/101325-wpvi-ellen-greenberg-death-dr-simon-review-PDF.pdf

3. Hesitation wounds, consistent with suicide:

"Many of these stab and incised wounds would best be categorized as hesitation wounds."

page 32: https://dig.abclocal.go.com/wpvi/pdf/101325-wpvi-ellen-greenberg-death-dr-simon-review-PDF.pdf

4. SG's DNA was not found on the knife handle:

"The fiance's DNA was not detected on the knife used to inflict the injuries."

page 32: https://dig.abclocal.go.com/wpvi/pdf/101325-wpvi-ellen-greenberg-death-dr-simon-review-PDF.pdf

5. No evidence of abusive relationship:

"No evidence was provided to indicate Ellen was in an abusive relationship with her fiance."

page 32: https://dig.abclocal.go.com/wpvi/pdf/101325-wpvi-ellen-greenberg-death-dr-simon-review-PDF.pdf

There are other factors that were considered, in lengthy detail, in that 32-page report.

And I admit, after reading through it all, I'm still on the fence myself.

 

[ADeaton]

I was reading about a case in 2003 of a suicide where the individual stab themselves 90 times with a small pocket knife, the cause of death was bleeding out, the individual also stab themselves in the front torso and chest and also in the back of the neck and head. I also found a thesis paper a student was writing on this subject and the student pointed out that when you are stabbing yourself frontally when you change to stabbing yourself in the back of the neck the orientation of the blade changes roughly 180 degrees which the student claimed it did as expected in that case. I don't know if all representations of the stab wounds in this case are accurate but what I've seen they all have the cutting edge of the knife downward, if accurate that means she would have had to physically turned the knife in her hand when she went from front to back. Why would she do that ?
I read about this case in two medical journals and the thesis paper and none of them gave the individuals name or any other information only that it was a male.

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

Sadly, this case and IMO its handling are troubling. All of it. And now the use of terms such as ‘sub-therapeutic’…… and the apparent latest coroner (or medical examiner) opinion that it supposedly was suicide….. as their determination by a ‘reasonable’ degree of certainty (or words to that effect) IIRC.

Simply SMH. These reports and results are IMO not being done by investigators or typical examiners. These statements have IMO legal jargon all over them.

And IIUC there is now a ruling that it was a suicide? Which overruled the prior opinion that it was not the result of an individual taking their own life? And that prior opinion reversed an earlier determination? This in itself is disturbing IMO.

IMO seems the real questions are who is overall in charge or responsible for this investigation - and why? And why the odd handling of this case? IMO someone is protecting something or someone. IANAL. MOO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Question. If she mixed and/or took too much Klonopin and Ambien (voluntarily, accidentally, or drugged), would it have been possible that she was too weak to fight back? Ambien, a sleep aid; Klonopin, a muscle relaxer (among other things). Both are meds whose effects are felt shortly after each dosage and then wear off; they're not the type that build up in your system. (I haven't seen any toxicology reports that have would have stated her levels.)

Yes. It's not only possible, it's likely she wouldn't be able to fight back with those drugs in her system.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Give the ruling, given the possibility she was truly alone, is it possible that her Rxs, intended to salve her anxiety, exacerbated it? Super human strength and the combo, fueled by Ambien, should be filed with the crazy effects some users/patients report?

Over time, warning labels found their homes on these medications, warning of preposterous behaviors and increased suicide risk.

Could it be that the mystery murderer in the sealed house is the medicine cabinet?

Could that cocktail of Rxs have pushed her anxiety over the banks and introduced suicidal/homicidial ideation where there had not been? Pretty sure that warning already exists, but for young adults who are prescribed them. She was older than a young adult but who's to say the meds (going on or off or somewhere in between) didn't do exactly that in this situation? A case if the treatment being more deadly than the disease.

I think the meds (again going on or off and while taking them) are responsible for her increasingly disordered thinking (that everything hinged on 1st grade grades) and therefore could provide the explanation for how a pleasant school teacher went from not uncommon anxiety to a frenzied attack. Biomechanically impossible, somehow upended by biochemical hulkdom.

Just Me and My Opinion, looking at this situation from the perspective of no foul play.

JMO

IMO, this is impossible.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I haven't seen anything with exact levels either, but IIRC the recent report said there were "sub-therapeutic levels" of Ambien and Klonopin found. My main question is that, since she had Xanax, Ambien and Klonopin in her home, why would she go through the horrible pain of stabbing herself instead of overdosing on her meds if she was truly suicidal?

Because she didn't do this.

MOO.

 

[MrEmc]

Question. If she mixed and/or took too much Klonopin and Ambien (voluntarily, accidentally, or drugged), would it have been possible that she was too weak to fight back? Ambien, a sleep aid; Klonopin, a muscle relaxer (among other things). Both are meds whose effects are felt shortly after each dosage and then wear off; they're not the type that build up in your system. (I haven't seen any toxicology reports that have would have stated her levels.)

Yes. It's not only possible, it's likely she wouldn't be able to fight back with those drugs in her system.

"Postmortem toxicology testing of Ellen's blood only detected subtherapeutic levels of zolpidem (Ambien) and clonazepam (Klonopin). Ellen's internal organs did not show signs typical of sedative intoxication, such as pulmonary edema or cerebral vascular congestion. Dr. Wayne Ross, who consulted on the case, similarly noted that Ellen had no history of controlled substance abuse, nor were there controlled substances detected by toxicology."

page 29: https://dig.abclocal.go.com/wpvi/pdf/101325-wpvi-ellen-greenberg-death-dr-simon-review-PDF.pdf

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

"Postmortem toxicology testing of Ellen's blood only detected subtherapeutic levels of zolpidem (Ambien) and clonazepam (Klonopin). Ellen's internal organs did not show signs typical of sedative intoxication, such as pulmonary edema or cerebral vascular congestion. Dr. Wayne Ross, who consulted on the case, similarly noted that Ellen had no history of controlled substance abuse, nor were there controlled substances detected by toxicology."

page 29: https://dig.abclocal.go.com/wpvi/pdf/101325-wpvi-ellen-greenberg-death-dr-simon-review-PDF.pdf

You don't have to high levels to be impaired, depending on your history of use. It's like alcohol. You don't have to be "drunk" to be impaired. The question is when she took them. Were they from the night before? Then chances are she wouldn't really be impaired because most of the medication would be out of her system. Was it just before the murder? Then I'd say she would have been impaired most likely.