PA - Five girls dead, 5 injured in Amish school shooting, 2 Oct 2006

[jubie]

I can not believe I have found it.

http://http://www.newline.com/amishinthecity/where.html

This link doesn't work for me, what have you found?

 

[reb]

it seems to me that the grudge he's been carrying for the horrible vent that happened 20 yrs ago, was that he was molested by someone else (at 12 years old). why he would take this out on innocent young girls and not grown men since those are the molesters 99.9% of the time.. is beyond me. because many men who end up molesting children were molested themselves, this seems to be (in part) what drove him to victimize others. and he could tell his wife that he molested his own relatives, but the fact that it was done to HIM was too unbearable to tell. but, it seems obvious to me... what he's getting at here.

and i agree with the others, that it would be interesting to see if he had a tumor or some other brain disease that caused his thinking to go haywire... so i hope they do an autopsy (if they can). people lose their children all the time.... but to be that insanely hateful, angry and psycho over it for years, and it only gets worse to where you can't enjoy life anymore & you just want to kill people... there's something highly abnormal about that.

 

[Texana]

Here's my theory:

His newborn daughter dies (premie, apparently.) He feels great grief and the "what did I do to deserve this" thinking.

He thinks back to what he did as a preteen--who knows what he did, but he did something he considered sexual molestation (and it probably was.)

As he's thinking about this, his subconscious begins of course to bring it up at night, trying to resolve the issue (as our subconscious mind does through dreams.)

Ergo, if God took his daughter as punishment, he might as well take out other people's daughters.

What an incredibly selfish and angry act. Too bad his coworkers didn't realize that his bad moods were more than just that--Funny how he didn't decide to go on postal on adults who would've fought back, huh?

 

[bing1]

The show was called "Amish in the City". I watched it..lol

That's right, Amish in the City. Thank you, I was going nuts trying to come u with it. I have thought about those young people for years. Not just the amish kids but the others also. I wonder if the experience changed their lives in any way?

I have to say that I am a firm believer in God and was raised in a Christian home. What struck me was the emotional blackmail that seems to be used in the community. As long as you do things the way we say everything is fine but if not, say goodbye to your parents and siblings and even boyfriends and girlfriends, the only life they have ever known. What a huge decision! They were shown during the show that they can love and worship without having to give up everything. I hope we can find out what these young adults are doing now, I hope they are happy with whatever decision they made.

Child molestation is at an epidemic level and rising. This is the second school hijacking based on sexual reasons in less than a week. If we don't do something, we will see more and more situations where the abused try to deal with what was done to them. Unfortunatly child abuse is a subject that not many people want to talk about and so much of it gets swept under the carpet because it is so ugly.

I am very afraid for my grand babies.

 

[reb]

but what's interesting is that (i'm assuming he told his wife on the phone- correct?) that he was doing this for revenge at what happened 20 years ago-- NOT revenge at "god" for taking his child away. he did mention that in the note, & obviously it's affected him far more than a normal person. but the incident way back when seems to have had more of a hold on him. it would be interesting to see if he went to church when he was younger... and to see if any of the priests or ministers (from his church or churches) have ever gotten in trouble for molesting kids..... hhhhhmmmmmm.....??????

 

[Sassygerl]

My thought is that in some way he blamed little girls for making him have that desire to molest. There's no telling trying to figure out such a sick #@$%%%

 

[Floh]

I wonder if his 7 year-old daughter was touched?

 

[luthersmama]

Here's a very detailed article. It includes the dead children's names. One of the girls who survived is the sister of one who was killed.

http://ap.lancasteronline.com/4/amish_school_shooting


This one gives more background.

http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/26342

 

[reb]

yeah, but how can you prevent it in the first place?? this guy was said to be a great husband/father, no history of psychiatric problems or criminal behavior (well, except for the molesting which he never had to answer for apparently). for career criminals & perverts, OK- that's an easy one. but what about cases like this? or kids who go blow up their school?? i'm just wondering how kids- and people in general- are supposed to protect themselves when there so many nutcases out there, whether they have acted out yet or not.
and how come we never hear about a lone gunman or a child molester who gets taken out with a well-aimed shot BEFORE he hurts anyone else?? that would really make my day. if it gets to the point where children can't even be in school, on the street, or in their own homes without the danger of being kidnapped or killed, then how else are they supposed to protect thesmelves??

as for america being a tougher nation-- i am starting to have serious doubts that will ever happen. we are too obsessed with the idea of "freedom"-- which apparently includes a whole lot of freedom for criminals. we don't want to instill punishment that's too harsh on criminals because-- well, that would be infringing on their rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. we always err on the side of innocence- i.e., we'd rather let 1000 murderers go than risk killing one innocent man (in theory anyway). america would have to take a cold hard look at itself,, and take a big step away from something that is at the very core of our being. we view tough laws and punishments like something that happens "over there" in some totalitarian country... and we're afraid of that. we like to see ourselves as just and fair, but we end up being too soft and then the criminals end up with more freedom than the law-abiding citizens. i am beginning to wonder who's side our government is on (well, actually i've been wondering that for a long time!)
i know that mob justice is for uncivilized nations and that's not 'playing by the rules'- and there's a REASON we have those rules. but i'm getting more & more frustrated with the way things are by the day.

what will it take to enact a law that puts murderers (unless reasonable self-defense), child molesters, violent rapists to death- and not 10 years from now? and WHY is that such a bad idea?? will our society really be at a loss if those people were gone? and WHY does our society coddle and glorify criminals so much, and make heroes & martyrs out of them? what is wrong with us........???????

 

[bing1]

yeah, but how can you prevent it in the first place?? this guy was said to be a great husband/father, no history of psychiatric problems or criminal behavior (well, except for the molesting which he never had to answer for apparently). for career criminals & perverts, OK- that's an easy one. but what about cases like this? or kids who go blow up their school?? i'm just wondering how kids- and people in general- are supposed to protect themselves when there so many nutcases out there, whether they have acted out yet or not.
and how come we never hear about a lone gunman or a child molester who gets taken out with a well-aimed shot BEFORE he hurts anyone else?? that would really make my day. if it gets to the point where children can't even be in school, on the street, or in their own homes without the danger of being kidnapped or killed, then how else are they supposed to protect thesmelves??

as for america being a tougher nation-- i am starting to have serious doubts that will ever happen. we are too obsessed with the idea of "freedom"-- which apparently includes a whole lot of freedom for criminals. we don't want to instill punishment that's too harsh on criminals because-- well, that would be infringing on their rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. we always err on the side of innocence- i.e., we'd rather let 1000 murderers go than risk killing one innocent man (in theory anyway). america would have to take a cold hard look at itself,, and take a big step away from something that is at the very core of our being. we view tough laws and punishments like something that happens "over there" in some totalitarian country... and we're afraid of that. we like to see ourselves as just and fair, but we end up being too soft and then the criminals end up with more freedom than the law-abiding citizens. i am beginning to wonder who's side our government is on (well, actually i've been wondering that for a long time!)
i know that mob justice is for uncivilized nations and that's not 'playing by the rules'- and there's a REASON we have those rules. but i'm getting more & more frustrated with the way things are by the day.

what will it take to enact a law that puts murderers (unless reasonable self-defense), child molesters, violent rapists to death- and not 10 years from now? and WHY is that such a bad idea?? will our society really be at a loss if those people were gone? and WHY does our society coddle and glorify criminals so much, and make heroes & martyrs out of them? what is wrong with us........???????

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I'm in Canada and feel exactly the same way, GREAT POST!

ps. I was watching CSI or Law and Order and they actually used the phrase "pulled a scott peterson"!!!!! These peoples names should not be known as well as they are. We know too many of them and not enough of the real heroes out there.

 

[reb]

<I'm in Canada and feel exactly the same way, GREAT POST!>

COOL!! got any extra room up in good ol' canadia?? cause i'd love to move up there (that is if you'll have me)

 

[bakerprune64]

Oh Reb, my dear that would be insanity for children to pack heat! :crazy: Not that the insane problem in fron of our society now doesn't need to make swift moves to squash it though.. There just has to be a better way to do it.

It is suppose to be the job of parents and teachers to instill all the ethics, moral value and correct obligations of the citizenry in America.That evidently is not working as there is no control - the human mind is too complicated to simply program into always doing the right thing.

Therefore a solution has to be reflected in tougher laws, mandatory sentances and have more of the punishment fit the crime. I don't know how to accomplish the last one, short of automatic casatration for any man found guilty of a sex crime.

The country has recently made some inroads into controling sexual predators who are found guilty, but we need to keep a clean house. Maybe this Mark Foley ordeal is a blessing in disguise. When you have to warn the pages in the Congress that a congressman is a homosexual and you better watch out, and when you don't dare report that a major US Senator lets his stewards hold pot parties in his office after work for the pages, there is a lot of cleaning to do!


Scandi

PS: I heard there are 7 families directly impacted by the shooting of the 10 liitle girls. I thought there were 11 girls shot. Does anyone know for sure?

Snip...The victims were identified as Naomi Rose Ebersole, 7; Anna Mae Stoltzfus, 12; Marian Fisher, 13; Mary Liz Miller, 8; and her sister Lena Miller, 7. Stoltzfus' sister was among the wounded.

Four other girls were in critical condition and one was in serious condition. They ranged in age from 6 to 13.

*********************The article also said that one girl slipped out of the school house with the boys and was unharmed. That might account for the 11 girls number you have.

 

[deespoohbear]

It wouldn't surprise me either if some of the girls involved weren't cousins or related somehow. Very common in Amish communities.

 

[englishleigh]

Snip...The victims were identified as Naomi Rose Ebersole, 7; Anna Mae Stoltzfus, 12; Marian Fisher, 13; Mary Liz Miller, 8; and her sister Lena Miller, 7. Stoltzfus' sister was among the wounded.

Four other girls were in critical condition and one was in serious condition. They ranged in age from 6 to 13.

*********************The article also said that one girl slipped out of the school house with the boys and was unharmed. That might account for the 11 girls number you have.

I was wondering if they would release the names of the ones killed. SO very sad. :furious:

 

[sleuthin4fun]

bing1 I remember that show as well I remember that I thought that it was awful that they would exploit these children in this way. My husband had a co-worker whose nephew was on the show. Needless to say his family was not happy. Idon't rmemeber what happened. We as a society are ignorant to the ways of others. Yes the Amish lifestyle can seem a bit extreme to some but, it is also for the most part a peaceful one. There are so many things we can learn from them.

Two or three years ago there was a television show that focused on the Rumspringa. I can't remember the name of it at the moment but it was a reality show that took 6 or 7 amish teens and put them in a big nice house with 6 or 7 non amish teens from all walks of life. They showed the amish teens everything from Christian rock shows to gay bars. At the end of the series the amish teens had to decide whether they wanted to go back or not. Two decided not to even though it meant that they would never see any of their family members ever again. That is basically the decision they have to make. A life in the world with no contact or to live with their loved ones in the community. I found the show fascinating and really felt for those teens who had to make this huge decision.

As for the monster who did this I think that he did pick this school because it was convinient and he would have more time to do what he was going to do before police were involved. He was most likely molested at the age of 12 or so and then began molesting later. He probably struggled with the images and dreams he had been having and for a very long time fought those feelings and tried to suppress them. He didn't expect the police to be there as fast as they were and that pushed up his plans. I think all along he had planned to molest those girls and then kill them and himself. These dreams and thoughts had been with him for a very long time and I think he decided to give in to them one last time and then end it so it could never happen again. Just my opinion of course. I pray that these families heal quickly and find the comfort from God that they have always depended on to get them through.

 

[Sassygerl]

Interesting article...

UNDER their wide-brimmed straw hats and behind their distinctive beards, there was not a twitch of emotion or a single expression of grief yesterday as their horse-drawn buggies made their way down the narrow stone lanes and through the cornfields of Nickel Mines.

Down the hill, in a beautiful gully filled with the smell of wild garlic, stood the one-room schoolhouse where ten of their little girls, feet and hands tied, had been lined up against a blackboard and shot through the head less then 24 hours before.

But in this hamlet of 27 homes and one church, there were no pictures of the victims to see yesterday — the Amish forbid photography. There were no relatives weeping to camera, describing their grief. There were no publicity agents lining up interviews with Oprah Winfrey, or family spokesmen releasing names. There was nothing — except a quiet, but enormously powerful, public stoicism.

America has had school massacres before, but never an aftermath as uniquely strange as this one.

more at link...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2387829,00.html

 

[s_finch]

From reading the news, sounds like this guy was fighting some serious OCD and anger problems, and lost. Then again, maybe he didn't fight them, maybe he just continued to cave in to his problems. He's been preoccupied with the death of the infant since 1997? That's almost 10 years ago. Obviously he couldn't let go. He was obsessed with molesting young girls and his obsessions and demons really took hold of him. Not making any excuses for him, but seems like this is the direction a psych eval would go. Course, as John Douglas would probably say, these perps use lots of different "reasons" and "excuses" for doing what they do, but in the end it's just that, an excuse. Lubricating jelly was among the possessions he took into the school house, he had some evil plans for sure. Guess he didn't think the LE would arrive so quickly and he'd have more time. He certainly decompensated quickly when LE arrived. There should have been/would have been signs of his instability before this. His wife can say how great he was, but I would bet that other info will slowly come to light.


Kinda like I said about Melinda Duckett, he could have sought professional couseling. I'm beginning to think we need free counselors on every street corner in America :banghead:

 

[Jess]

Here is the link for Amish in the City

http://www.newline.com/amishinthecity/where.html

 

[ember]

Interesting article...

UNDER their wide-brimmed straw hats and behind their distinctive beards, there was not a twitch of emotion or a single expression of grief yesterday as their horse-drawn buggies made their way down the narrow stone lanes and through the cornfields of Nickel Mines.

Down the hill, in a beautiful gully filled with the smell of wild garlic, stood the one-room schoolhouse where ten of their little girls, feet and hands tied, had been lined up against a blackboard and shot through the head less then 24 hours before.

But in this hamlet of 27 homes and one church, there were no pictures of the victims to see yesterday — the Amish forbid photography. There were no relatives weeping to camera, describing their grief. There were no publicity agents lining up interviews with Oprah Winfrey, or family spokesmen releasing names. There was nothing — except a quiet, but enormously powerful, public stoicism.

America has had school massacres before, but never an aftermath as uniquely strange as this one.

more at link...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2387829,00.html

Wow, I'm just crying. What a powerful article. I feel so bad for these simple, peaceful people.

I too thought about how odd the pictures from the scene looked, with our new modern world looking so overbearing next to these quiet Amish people. In fact, I know that the Amish once believed that if you took their picture, that it would capture their soul and I thought about how crude all of those cameras must look to them. Suddenly, I felt very high maintenance. And was even a little ashamed of our modern ways being shoved in their face by borish cameramen and news people eager for the story...

They will get through better than any of us could. Bless their stoicism. Bless them.

 

[cheko1]

This is such a tragedy!

I siincerely think the events happening in our schools need taken care of ASAP. Its time something is done to protect our kids. The schools need to take safety one step further. I think all schools should be in lockdown daily.
Once the kids go into the school they don't leave.

Nobody allowed to enter the schools unless there is an emergency, they may have to go through the cops to enter. Something needs done.......this is insane.

That guy was a animal......we probably will never know if he did get a chance to use the K-Y jell. I don't buy the fact he was ever normal or a nice guy. He was a sick, sorry azz, S O B.