PA - Grand Jury Report, Sexual abuse of over 1,000 children by over 300 Catholic priests

[Elley Mae]

Vatican reveals it has secret rules for priests who father children

Vatican reveals it has secret rules for priests who father children

The Vatican has acknowledged for the first time the existence of secret guidelines for priests who break their vows of celibacy and father children.

The number of children born to priests is unknown although one support group, Coping International, has 50,000 users in 175 countries. Some children are the result of consensual relationships, but others are the result of rape or abuse.

 

[Cryptic]

But, many other entities did the same thing. At least that behavior is no longer acceptable.

Good point. The Catholic church stands out due to sheer size leading to more cover ups and the unreviewable ability of Bishops to transfer criminals with in a diocese. No other church matches the size in the US and the transfer ability.

 

[tmar]

George Pell has been found guilty of child sex offences. Here's what you need to know

50 mins ago
Cardinal George Pell was last year convicted of sexually abusing two choirboys in 1996, but the Victorian County Court has not allowed media outlets to report the verdict before now.

Pell is Australia's most senior Catholic cleric and he now faces the prospect of prison time.

His five-week trial ended last December, when a jury found Pell guilty of sexual penetration of a child under 16, as well as four counts of committing an indecent act with, or in the presence, of a child.
What did he do?

The verdict relates to two different incidents that took place when he was the archbishop of Melbourne.

Pell abused the two choirboys at Melbourne's St Patrick's Cathedral after celebrating one of his first Sunday masses as archbishop.

He abused one of the boys a second time, two months later.

Evidence of the abuse came from just one of the choirboys. The other victim died in 2014 and never made a complaint to his family or police.

Pell's surviving victim can't be identified and his evidence was given in a closed court.
But parts of his testimony were read out by the prosecutor and Pell's defence barrister during their closing arguments to the jury.

What happens now?

Pell was granted bail after the verdict was handed down so he could have surgery on his knees.

When he granted bail, Chief Judge Peter Kidd said he was planning to remand Pell in custody after a plea hearing, scheduled for tomorrow.

There will be a sentencing hearing on a future date.

The Catholic church hasn't commented on the verdict yet.

Pell is now 77 and, shortly after the verdict was handed down in December, Pope Francis removed Pell from his advisory board.

 

[Cryptic]

I think the article below really illustrates the following theme that is common to all groups of humans, including churches:

- We really, really don't like airing dirty laundry. So, we cover it up

I also think the article deflates claims that celibacy vows contribute to sex abuse inclinations. All of these convicts had access to sexual relationships, .

https://www.chron.com/news/investig...-reveals-700-victims-of-Southern-13591612.php

Since 1998, 320 employees or volunteers at SBC churches have been convicted of criminal sex acts. My guess is that a significantly larger number have been credibly accused of sex crimes, yet never prosecuted.

The article also mentions a pattern of stunts: not telling the police, not telling other churches of accusations, pressure on the victim to remain silent, and instances where convicted sex criminals continued to be employed.

Though this report and the other articles in the thread deal with churches, my suspicion is that all groups have the "dirty laundry" characteristic. For example, the Communist party took over many roles occupied by churches in some countries. I wonder how forthcoming they were about predators in say, communist directed youth organizations. orphanages and sports organizations?

 

[k-mac]

hope you die in prison pell.

sodimising a 13 year old boy a 'vanilla' sexual assault.

you a vile and a disgrace to humanity.

 

[mickey2942]

hope you die in prison pell.

sodimising a 13 year old boy a 'vanilla' sexual assault.

you a vile and a disgrace to humanity.

Absolutely depraved. The minimization of the sexual assault is typical. There is no remorse here, and definitely no potential for rehabilitation. He continues to justify his behavior, and the church enabled him for decades to rape at will.

 

[Elley Mae]

Pope Francis issued a groundbreaking new church law Thursday requiring all Catholic priests and nuns around the world to report clergy sexual abuse and cover-ups by their superiors to church authorities, in a new effort to hold the Catholic hierarchy accountable for failing to protect their flocks.

Pope mandates reporting of sex abuse to church, not police – Boston Herald

......

Same as it ever was, keep it in house.
Good move pope, protecting Your flock.

 

[mickey2942]

Pope Francis issued a groundbreaking new church law Thursday requiring all Catholic priests and nuns around the world to report clergy sexual abuse and cover-ups by their superiors to church authorities, in a new effort to hold the Catholic hierarchy accountable for failing to protect their flocks.

Pope mandates reporting of sex abuse to church, not police – Boston Herald

......

Same as it ever was, keep it in house.
Good move pope, protecting Your flock.

"Ground Breaking" indeed. Not unlike the VA with their "Office of Whistleblowing and Accountability". All this office does it keep investigations internal, Whistleblowers think they are being "protected", when every bit of information is turned over to their supervisor, for "investigation", the very person who is doing the retailiation!

Once again, the fox is "guarding" the hen house. Everyone happy now?! And how depraved is it, in 2019, that the Catholic church "announces" that it is "OK" to report child sexual abuse! The irony here is epic.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

There is also the requirement that the clergy obey the laws in their jurisdictions. They have made a requirement of canon law.

In PA, a priest Monseigneur William Lynn, acting on instruction the Cardinal, did not report pedophile priests to the police and moved them around. He was found guilty (though is being retried due to other issues) in a criminal court of failing to report. He is still a priest; he did not violate any church law in doing this. If fact, he obeyed the church law in doing this. He took a vow of obedience, and followed it.

If Lynn did this today, he would be facing removal from the priesthood. If the Cardinal was still around (he died in the middle of this), he would be facing removal from holy orders.

About the only thing that the Catholic Church can do to a priest or bishop, is to remove them. The Church is now saying to clergy, even if your superior orders you not to report abuse, your vow of obedience to the Church means that you have to disregard that order.

Someone like Lynn basically would have thought, **I have a moral duty to be obedient to my superior.** The Church is now saying, **You have a moral duty to report and that duty outweighs your duty to obey your superior.** They are also to the superior, **Your moral duty is not to prevent reporting.**

That outlook changes how the clergy deals with sexual abuse issues. The only thing that can be done is to change the mindset of the clergy; this is at least an attempt to do just that.

 

[kaen]

This is just ridiculous.

Pope mandates reporting of sex abuse to church, not police – Boston Herald

It is very possible to do two things when you suspect or become aware of an abuse. First, it is a requirement to report to the church. Second, right after you report to the church, you pick up the phone and call the police or local child protection agency, according to the local reporting requirements. Even in other countries, if child abuse is not a crime (I doubt that for most countries) reporting behavior to the police or authorities protects the children. This way the church is aware and can do its due diligence and the child is protected by local authorities. Maybe someone needs to hire me at the Vatican. Just unbelievable.

 

[kaen]

While there are no punitive measures foreseen for noncompliance, bishops and religious superiors could be accused of cover-up or negligence if they fail to implement the provisions or retaliate against priests and nuns who make reports against them.

The law defines the crimes that must be reported as: performing sexual acts with a minor or vulnerable person; forcing an adult “by violence or threat or through abuse of authority, to perform or submit to sexual acts”; and the production, possession or distribution of child . Cover-up is defined as “actions or omissions intended to interfere with or avoid” civil or canonical investigations. Pope mandates reporting of sex abuse to church, not police – Boston Herald

And, no punitive measures for non-compliance forseen. So, why mandate it?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

While there are no punitive measures foreseen for noncompliance, bishops and religious superiors could be accused of cover-up or negligence if they fail to implement the provisions or retaliate against priests and nuns who make reports against them.

The law defines the crimes that must be reported as: performing sexual acts with a minor or vulnerable person; forcing an adult “by violence or threat or through abuse of authority, to perform or submit to sexual acts”; and the production, possession or distribution of child . Cover-up is defined as “actions or omissions intended to interfere with or avoid” civil or canonical investigations. Pope mandates reporting of sex abuse to church, not police – Boston Herald

And, no punitive measures for non-compliance forseen. So, why mandate it?

There is a punitive measure for violating canon law; that is ultimately removal from the position the offender holds.

Not all countries, nor even all states in the US, have the same standard. In much of South America, the ago of consent is 14; in Argentina, it is 13. In parts of Europe, Germany, Italy, the age of consent is 14. In the very Catholic Philippines, it is 12. Calling the police to report something not criminal, like a priest being involved with a 14 year old, would be like calling the police and saying someone stopped at a stop sign.

Personally, I think 12 years is a bit too young, but I don't live in the Philippines.

 

[kaen]

There is a punitive measure for violating canon law; that is ultimately removal from the position the offender holds.

Not all countries, nor even all states in the US, have the same standard. In much of South America, the ago of consent is 14; in Argentina, it is 13. In parts of Europe, Germany, Italy, the age of consent is 14. In the very Catholic Philippines, it is 12. Calling the police to report something not criminal, like a priest being involved with a 14 year old, would be like calling the police and saying someone stopped at a stop sign.

Personally, I think 12 years is a bit too young, but I don't live in the Philippines.

I get the age of consent issue and why the church says report to us because we care about the actions of the person employed by us, but they are also not offering consequences, systems of transparency, or clear path to protecting the public once they defrock a monster.

I understand that many countries have very young ages of consent. I am fine with a priest or nun calling the police and it being treated as if someone stopped at a stop sign. In truth many of the pedophiles in the church offended not once but serially with little or no record maintained. The way the church moved these monsters around with no internal system makes me question how good a system they could create and hold their people to account. The Catholic Church would do well to have a secondary system of reports to hold against their own, a system by which another state or country could ask if the behavior had happened in their jurisdiction previously.

If they want to eradicate this scourge among their leaders, they have to do something more than say call us. Name the consequences. Name the ways that they are going to review and ensure that their members are not abusing. Name the extensive training in identification of issues and prevention. In area of issues of age of consent with employees who are supposed to be celibate, what happens if you have sex? Can you still be in the order?

Sorry. For a church that has incredible resources and tons of money. This is slim policy that does not address the need for protection from the monsters that they have given shelter to in the past and presumably in the present. They must offer more. The victims of their silence want more. Those of us who were baptized and supported them want more.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped.

If they want to eradicate this scourge among their leaders, they have to do something more than say call us. Name the consequences. Name the ways that they are going to review and ensure that their members are not abusing. Name the extensive training in identification of issues and prevention. In area of issues of age of consent with employees who are supposed to be celibate, what happens if you have sex? Can you still be in the order?

Sorry. For a church that has incredible resources and tons of money. This is slim policy that does not address the need for protection from the monsters that they have given shelter to in the past and presumably in the present. They must offer more. The victims of their silence want more. Those of us who were baptized and supported them want more.

What consequences, beyond removing them and reporting them to law enforcement, when illegal, could the Church (or any church) do? The Church cannot arrest them, or put them in "church jail." The only thing that, as a practical matter, the Catholic Church, or any church, can do is to report it to the authorities and remove the offender. They can remove anyone trying to cover it up (and they have been doing that).

I'm at a loss to see what, beyond that, the Church, or any other institution, can do.

 

[mickey2942]

Part of the problem with the Catholic church, and many other churches have done the exact same thing, for decades. Most churches are patriarchal, run by men.

And churches believe in the concept of confession, redemption from sin. So, they had a situation, the perpetrator "confessed" (usually after being exposed), the authorities didn't want to "ruin" his life, family, for a sin, that he confessed and received dispensation for this. So, they considered everything fine, move on. The victim was lost, and often obliquely "blamed", or the act was, minimized, "plain vanilla sex". Everything was managed internally.

The problem with the Catholic church, is that they let the perpetrator go on to another parish, over and over again...the same sin cycle.

In another church, that will remain nameless, often the female victims were made to feel guilty, as if they had done something to encourage rape! So, dress more modestly, on and on...as if! It disgusts me, which is why I loathe and despise all organized religious groups.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Forgiveness is tenet of Christianity. Yet it is a case of "love the sinner, but hate the sin." That does not mean that there is no temporal penalty.

I will agree that the mindset of not wanting to "ruin" is prevalent, but not just in the Catholic Church. This is an attempt, at least, to destroy that mindset.

It is a question of how to solve the problem.

 

[Elley Mae]

Four in five Vatican priests are gay, book claims

Four in five Vatican priests are gay, book claims

It will never stop. Jmo

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Four in five Vatican priests are gay, book claims

Four in five Vatican priests are gay, book claims

It will never stop. Jmo

1. I would never equate being gay with being a child molester.

2. Even if true, the article notes that while some of these priests, while possibly having a gay orientation, are celibate. It is not improper for a priest to have sexual desires of any type; it is improper if they act on those desires.

 

[kaen]

Forgiveness is tenet of Christianity. Yet it is a case of "love the sinner, but hate the sin." That does not mean that there is no temporal penalty.

I will agree that the mindset of not wanting to "ruin" is prevalent, but not just in the Catholic Church. This is an attempt, at least, to destroy that mindset.

It is a question of how to solve the problem.

The people who we are supposed to love while hating their sin are people who, in theory and their own words, are supposed to be caring for the most vulnerable. For too long, imo, the idea that what actions are taken are between the church employee, God, and the leadership with a good side dish of the temporal punishment has been destructive to not only the victims but the faith as well. There were people in high places who did little to stop or interrupt the cycle of violence that was occurring (in fact, some who rose to the top were documented and known to have abused). Now, the leadership is requiring that there will be reporting structures but no assurances of anything beyond what was offered before to the victims-- a simple we are now informed and still not accountable. It is one thing to ask people to forgive the sinner and to create systems ensure that they cannot harm others through legal means and church means while warning the public of their propensity. It is another to decide that the church will create a reporting structure that continues to hide abusers, have no public accountability, and, basically, say trust us we will take care of it because we have learned our lesson. We have no idea of the moral compass of the leaders in church communities-- many of the abusers of the past have been pillars of communities and known to abuse by their superiors/supervisors. IMO, it is a slap in the face to all who have been abused in the past and present to say to "just trust us because we have learned from the past" with no transparency to the people whose trust has been abused-- parishioners who donated, abuse victims, employees who blindly supported, and families who had to chose between believing in the church or their victimized children.

In addition, the church has collected millions upon millions of dollars from its faithful in order to support the good works and mission of the institution. There have been tens of millions of dollars paid in settlements to victims (who were vulnerable believers that were not believed, forced to choose between safety and their faith, and more) based on the lack of action and systematic failure of the church to protect. This new system is not ensuring that the hard earned dollars of the donors will not once again be needed to pay for the sins of the criminals that the church may not handle effectively.

Maybe the church can advocate for a change in the age of consent issues in places like the Philippines rather than using age of consent as a reason that a less transparent system with no oversight of local legal authorities is the answer.

More transparency is the answer. More legal involvement is the answer. And, in places where age of consent is an issue, transparency as to what the offense was committed and the remedy that was implemented-- no more leave the orders and have no trail. These men/women who leave the church and go on to teaching in schools or doing jobs where they have access to victimize is just not acceptable, imo. The monsters are then released to victimize again.

 

[kaen]

Four in five Vatican priests are gay, book claims

Four in five Vatican priests are gay, book claims

It will never stop. Jmo

Just because one is gay doesn't make one an abuser. See below from UC DAVIS.

"Here again, there is no inherent connection between an adult's sexual orientation and her or his propensity for endangering others. Scientific research provides no evidence that homosexual people are less likely than heterosexuals to exercise good judgment and appropriate discretion in their employment settings. There are no data, for example, showing that gay men and lesbians are more likely than heterosexual men and women to sexually harass their subordinates in the workplace. Data from studies using a variety of psychological measures do not indicate that gay people are more likely than heterosexuals to possess any psychological characteristics that would make them less capable of controlling their sexual urges, refraining from the abuse of power, obeying rules and laws, interacting effectively with others, or exercising good judgment in handling authority. As explained elsewhere on this site, sexual orientation is not a mental illness nor is it inherently associated with impaired psychological functioning.......The empirical research does not show that gay or bisexual men are any more likely than heterosexual men to molest children. This is not to argue that homosexual and bisexual men never molest children. But there is no scientific basis for asserting that they are more likely than heterosexual men to do so. And, as explained above, many child molesters cannot be characterized as having an adult sexual orientation at all; they are fixated on children."

Facts About Homosexuality and Child Molestation