PA - Helen Miller, 19, stabbed to death by sister, 14, Manheim Twp., Feb 2021

[Lilibet]

In PA any minor will be charged as an adult for murder. A child who is 14 or older can be sentenced to 25 years to life in prison for 1st degree murder. Imo

Draconian IMO.

 

[MsBetsy]

Draconian IMO.

Yes, I'm pretty sure PA has the highest rate of children serving life sentences. There was an eleven year old boy convicted of murdering his stepmother about ten years ago. He was eventually exonerated for lack of evidence after about 11 years in prison. His name is Jordan Brown and I think he was released recently. Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

I was responding to the poster who considered this 'She's too young for the death penalty to be an option.' And again, I say, she is a child.

Yes, she is a child but in many states a child that age can be charged as a juvenile and the focus is on rehabilitation. I'm not sure if she will have that option.

 

[Gibbo214]

Yes, she is a child but in many states a child that age can be charged as a juvenile and the focus is on rehabilitation. I'm not sure if she will have that option.

Isn't she being charged as an adult?

 

[ChatteringBirds]

Our poor kids.

Could you elaborate?

 

[ChatteringBirds]

I do think it needs to be said that this isn't a new issue. Some teenagers of all generations have needed good mental health treatment that has never been widely available. It's always been expensive, difficult to get appointments, and even more so with someone great at what they do who truly helps the patient. All IMO / MOO.

 

[Lilibet]

Isn't she being charged as an adult?

Yes, Pennsylvania law is as follows, quoting an earlier post.

It was filed in criminal court without any testimony or deliberation, because that’s the way the law is written in Pennsylvania. Juveniles ages 10 and up accused of murder start out in adult court and the only way to get the case into juvenile court is if the defense attorney can convince a judge it is in the public interest.

Pennsylvania is among about a dozen other states where the burden of proof is automatically placed on a juvenile who has been charged with murder.

In many other states, when juveniles are charged with crimes, the burden is on the prosecutor to prove the suspect should be “certified” to stand trial as an adult.

Pennsylvania’s law means Claire Miller, 14, of Manheim Township, who is accused of stabbing her older sister in the neck early Monday, is currently being treated as an adult, including having her name and mugshot released to the public and spending her incarceration in the county prison without bail.

 

[Lilibet]

It seems so strange and unfair that the principle “innocent until proven guilty” is the opposite of the principle use in determining if Claire is a child or an adult. She is an adult until proven to be a child in PA and about a dozen other states. Most states consider a child to be an adult only in extreme circumstances and the burden is on the state to make that case. In PA the burden is on the child to prove they are not an adult. Who thought up that law?

What we know about the 14-year-old accused of killing her disabled sister and why she’s in an adult prison

Attorneys say it’s likely given Claire Miller’s age that her attorney would eventually petition the court to try to get her “decertified” and move her case to juvenile court, where the focus is on treatment and rehabilitation.

In that scenario, evaluations will be done to determine whether the prosecutor will fight or agree to move the case.

The court considers several factors when deciding whether to transfer a case including:

• how the alleged offense impacts the community,
• any threats the child poses to the public or any individuals,
• the nature of the alleged offense,
• the degree of the child’s culpability,
• adequacy of alternative dispositions, and
• whether the child appears amenable to treatment or rehabilitation by considering the child’s age, mental capacity, maturity, prior criminal record/delinquency history, degree of criminal sophistication, etc.

If Claire Miller’s case is moved, due to the confidential nature of the juvenile system, it is unlikely any further information would be released about the case.

 

[Lusitana]

Such a deeply compassionate post, @Lusitana.

Several years ago in my town, a 12 year old boy from a fairly affluent family stabbed his mother to death. It was later determined that he was angry because she took away his computer because of a bad grade in school. He also stabbed his sister, but she survived.

Sleuth that I am, I discovered that he had been watching horribly violent video games (including graphic stabbing) on a Y0uTube account in his mother’s name. I contacted the police chief in case it was a factor. Eventually, it was decided it was.

As you can see from the linked article that includes a letter from his dad, he was a boy with many wholesome interests and no psychiatric disorder. He was sentenced to confinement at the Oregon Youth Authority until he is 25, after which the State is confident that he can be released without being a danger to his family or society. I hope for the same outcome for Claire. There is such a thing as redemption. Even in the case of a horrific crime like this.

Ashland boy who murdered his mother sentenced - KOBI-TV NBC5 / KOTI-TV NBC2

GUILTY - OR - Pamela Wolosz, 52, killed, daughter injured, 12yo son charged, 10 Jan 2017

My final comment about this case:

GUILTY - OR - Pamela Wolosz, 52, killed, daughter injured, 12yo son charged, 10 Jan 2017

Thank you for sharing this, and I will have to agree with your point.

Kids are impressionable and I can totally see a child/tween/teen connecting so deeply with violent media such as shows or video games that it starts to feel normal to them. Also, romanticizing extreme violence can be a big problem too.

I’m not sure if this is Claire’s case or if she truly has some serious issues that contributed to this tragedy though. She clearly needs to be evaluated by a professional and, regardless if she has or not some mental health issues, she will need to work on something because what she did was not normal or okay.

I feel awful for the parents, one child is dead and the other one in jail accused of murder. Helen is never coming back, what about Claire? Such a tragedy.

 

[Filly]

Could you elaborate?

Basically I was going to say what your other post revealed. Just not as eloquent CB.

Every generation rebels. Many who would have gotten help revealing mental health issues. My generation at the very least you could get out of the house. Confide in a friend. Face to face. Hug, and have your tears dried or they'd help put some "sense" into you over your anger.

Our children today don't have that option. They can't even go to a dance or hang at the playground just to blow off steam. Also as you said regarding mental health issues. It's either they refuse and swear it's "just a thing". Parents have no clue how to get them help. Sadly, there's still that stigma as well.

Less we not forget you can also get the wrong therapist. The teen doesn't connect. However, just goes along to shut the parents up. Or the opposite. Ya get the "this is quite normal and he/she made a mistake". Mistakes you can correct. If your child takes off or murders a sibling it is no mistake.

We never know what goes on behind closed doors. Other factors. It would be soooo difficult having a 19 year old like Helen. Then fill your calendar with more running around for your 14 year old. Not saying they didn't seek help, but the burden of it all is overwhelming.

Added this family lived what a city girl like me would say "in the middle of nowhere". No excusing murdering your own sister, but in these conditions who the heck knows?

Just to add to the too lengthy post. If us siblings fought which would be what went on the lone stereo......The Who or Donna Summers nobody got the stereo and a slipper thrown at them and a promise my dad would hear there was fighting. No grounding. That meant my Ma had to put up with us. Not these kids today. I really feel for them.

 

[Lusitana]

Basically I was going to say what your other post revealed. Just not as eloquent CB.

Every generation rebels. Many who would have gotten help revealing mental health issues. My generation at the very least you could get out of the house. Confide in a friend. Face to face. Hug, and have your tears dried or they'd help put some "sense" into you over your anger.

Our children today don't have that option. They can't even go to a dance or hang at the playground just to blow off steam. Also as you said regarding mental health issues. It's either they refuse and swear it's "just a thing". Parents have no clue how to get them help. Sadly, there's still that stigma as well.

Less we not forget you can also get the wrong therapist. The teen doesn't connect. However, just goes along to shut the parents up. Or the opposite. Ya get the "this is quite normal and he/she made a mistake". Mistakes you can correct. If your child takes off or murders a sibling it is no mistake.

We never know what goes on behind closed doors. Other factors. It would be soooo difficult having a 19 year old like Helen. Then fill your calendar with more running around for your 14 year old. Not saying they didn't seek help, but the burden of it all is overwhelming.

Added this family lived what a city girl like me would say "in the middle of nowhere". No excusing murdering your own sister, but in these conditions who the heck knows?

Just to add to the too lengthy post. If us siblings fought which would be what went on the lone stereo......The Who or Donna Summers nobody got the stereo and a slipper thrown at them and a promise my dad would hear there was fighting. No grounding. That meant my Ma had to put up with us. Not these kids today. I really feel for them.

Claire did go out and did have friends. She was not isolated.

In fact, if anything, this pandemic only showed me that, shocker! Kids DO go out and crave for social interactions. I see kids and teens outside all the time. We’re in lockdown where I live but I’m an essential worker so I do have to leave the house everyday. We are allowed to go out for a walk close to our homes everyday under lockdown, to make sure everyone gets some physical activity and I assume for mental health purposes too. Yesterday, while getting off work I saw several kids riding their bikes outside.

Yes, there are isolated kids out there that actually have no interest in leaving their rooms/house, but generally speaking, the vast majority of kids, depressed or not, do go out. Social media can be bad but it also gave those isolated kids a platform to find like minded kids and connect with them.

There were always and there will always be shy, nervous, anti-social, depressed kids. Some shy kids go out and make friends, some depressed kids do go out and have friends, etc. I honestly don’t think that reality is that grim as one might think.

Claire was a normal kid, and that’s why this is so scary to me. Because she had friends, she made playful jokes about her father, she spent time with her family, she got out of the house and spent time with friends, and she still killed her sister.

 

[Filly]

Claire did go out and did have friends. She was not isolated.

In fact, if anything, this pandemic only showed me that, shocker! Kids DO go out and crave for social interactions. I see kids and teens outside all the time. We’re in lockdown where I live but I’m an essential worker so I do have to leave the house everyday. We are allowed to go out for a walk close to our homes everyday under lockdown, to make sure everyone gets some physical activity and I assume for mental health purposes too. Yesterday, while getting off work I saw several kids riding their bikes outside.

Yes, there are isolated kids out there that actually have no interest in leaving their rooms/house, but generally speaking, the vast majority of kids, depressed or not, do go out. Social media can be bad but it also gave those isolated kids a platform to find like minded kids and connect with them.

There were always and there will always be shy, nervous, anti-social, depressed kids. Some shy kids go out and make friends, some depressed kids do go out and have friends, etc. I honestly don’t think that reality is that grim as one might think.

Claire was a normal kid, and that’s why this is so scary to me. Because she had friends, she made playful jokes about her father, she spent time with her family, she got out of the house and spent time with friends, and she still killed her sister.

All true. You are right.

"Normal" is a cycle on the washing machine.

I'm old. The definition of "friend" IMO has changed in the last twenty years.

Here, public school is closed. Catholic school is not. There's barely any kids here out playing. Way too many of the kids here are shooting eachother or finding dismembered bodies or getting jumped. A "normal" kid here riding their bike just may get it stolen.

You can be alone in a crowd. You can be the odd man out. I raised a child that was involved in numerous activities. A child that did not read social cues. IQ wise way ahead of peers since kindergarten on so that means boredom, wandering and the "weirdo". She learned skills along the way "to get by".

So, I see both sides. Thus this 14 year old girl had to have many facets that led to such a horrific crime.

It's tough being 14 to begin with. I wish we had answers so it will never happen again.

Or do we blame anime? I have friends with grandkids this age. Between the internet, gaming, and worrying they'll get shot going to the store I don't begrudge them.

Sending solace to this entire family.

 

[MimosaMornings]

Claire was attending school every day?
No remote learning?
She was getting together in person with her friends on a daily basis? Every weekend?

Did they have an aide/OT/PT coming to the house?

Did both parents work outside the home?
Or was everyone at home for the the past year due to Covid?

The last 12 months have been far from normal for teenagers and adults in my family/friend circle. I am experiencing fluctuating mood swings as a result of the added stress of Covid and drastic changes in my lifestyle.
JMO

 

[realanastasia]

Yes, I'm pretty sure PA has the highest rate of children serving life sentences. There was an eleven year old boy convicted of murdering his stepmother about ten years ago. He was eventually exonerated for lack of evidence after about 11 years in prison. His name is Jordan Brown and I think he was released recently. Imo

Yes, PA has the most people sentenced as juveniles to life without parole--more than 500 at the time this website from the PA Department of Corrections was updated. Juvenile Lifers Information

It strikes me as somewhat ironic that my home state has such a draconian attitude towards juvenile offenders, given that PA is the home of this country's first penitentiary--Eastern State Penitentiary in Philadelphia--which was designed with the goal of rehabilitation in mind.

 

[Lusitana]

All true. You are right.

"Normal" is a cycle on the washing machine.

I'm old. The definition of "friend" IMO has changed in the last twenty years.

Here, public school is closed. Catholic school is not. There's barely any kids here out playing. Way too many of the kids here are shooting eachother or finding dismembered bodies or getting jumped. A "normal" kid here riding their bike just may get it stolen.

You can be alone in a crowd. You can be the odd man out. I raised a child that was involved in numerous activities. A child that did not read social cues. IQ wise way ahead of peers since kindergarten on so that means boredom, wandering and the "weirdo". She learned skills along the way "to get by".

So, I see both sides. Thus this 14 year old girl had to have many facets that led to such a horrific crime.

It's tough being 14 to begin with. I wish we had answers so it will never happen again.

Or do we blame anime? I have friends with grandkids this age. Between the internet, gaming, and worrying they'll get shot going to the store I don't begrudge them.

Sending solace to this entire family.

Oh... that’s just plain sad. Being a kid and not able to do kid things because it isn’t safe has to be so sad for both kids and guardians. I love seeing kids outside playing or just walking around.

And I agree, being 14 is never easy. The teenage years are just really rough for a lot of kids, it was hard for me too.

 

[GarAndTeed]

In PA any minor will be charged as an adult for murder. A child who is 14 or older can be sentenced to 25 years to life in prison for 1st degree murder. Imo

Wasn't Jordan Brown (hope I remembered his name correctly) charged as an adult with the murder of his father's girlfriend and her unborn child at age 11 in PA also? Sorry for the horrible sentence there! Anyway, I've watched several videos on his case recently, and I was rather shocked to see an 11 year old charged as an adult. He was also convicted and sentenced to LWP, but the state supreme court reversed the verdict, IIRC.

 

[GarAndTeed]

<snip>
The Jordan Brown case involves Jordan Brown (born August 12, 1997), who was initially charged at 11 as an adult in the fatal shooting of his father's fiancée, Kenzie Marie Houk, 26, in New Beaver, Pennsylvania, which occurred on the morning of February 20, 2009. Jordan was interviewed by Pennsylvania State Police twice that day and arrested before sunrise the next morning. The Lawrence County District Attorney's Office initially filed the charges in adult court because that is required in Pennsylvania homicide cases, regardless of a defendant's age. The Pennsylvania Attorney General's Office then took over prosecution of the case. After Brown had spent more than three years in a juvenile detention facility in Erie, Pennsylvania, while Pennsylvania courts deliberated his status, Brown was tried as a juvenile and found guilty of being delinquent by a judge on April 13, 2012.

On May 8, 2013, the Superior Court vacated the finding of delinquency, citing "palpable abuse of discretion" and sent the case back to juvenile court. On July 18, 2018, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court overturned his conviction in a 5–0 decision. The justices attacked the evidence as insufficient and said that the juvenile trial evidence pointing to a shotgun in Brown's bedroom as the murder weapon supported an equally-reasonable conclusion that it was not the murder weapon.[1] <snip>
Jordan Brown case - Wikipedia

 

[MimosaMornings]

Oh... that’s just plain sad. Being a kid and not able to do kid things because it isn’t safe has to be so sad for both kids and guardians. I love seeing kids outside playing or just walking around.

And I agree, being 14 is never easy. The teenage years are just really rough for a lot of kids, it was hard for me too.

In the past year - kids are outside in their own yard only. They are not supposed to mingle with any others outside their household. Solo bike rides or a bike ride with your family outdoors in a park where you can safely distance or wear masks.

Especially if you have a vulnerable household member.

If you are in public you are mandated to wear a mask.

Does Claire’s SM show her gathering with friends without masks and not social distancing? That would be a huge “no” for our house.

JMO

 

[imstilla.grandma]

All true. You are right.

"Normal" is a cycle on the washing machine.

I'm old. The definition of "friend" IMO has changed in the last twenty years.

Here, public school is closed. Catholic school is not. There's barely any kids here out playing. Way too many of the kids here are shooting eachother or finding dismembered bodies or getting jumped. A "normal" kid here riding their bike just may get it stolen.

You can be alone in a crowd. You can be the odd man out. I raised a child that was involved in numerous activities. A child that did not read social cues. IQ wise way ahead of peers since kindergarten on so that means boredom, wandering and the "weirdo". She learned skills along the way "to get by".

So, I see both sides. Thus this 14 year old girl had to have many facets that led to such a horrific crime.

It's tough being 14 to begin with. I wish we had answers so it will never happen again.

Or do we blame anime? I have friends with grandkids this age. Between the internet, gaming, and worrying they'll get shot going to the store I don't begrudge them.

Sending solace to this entire family.

My granddaughter turns 14 years old tomorrow. I can hardly believe it. She’s my last grandchild. Her emotional intelligence is high. She socially fits into any age group. Young and old. My oldest granddaughter, 21, has helped her mature at a faster rate than most kids round her. Might I add, she’s perfect and beautiful...lol grandma is biased. She’s extremely confident and likes herself. Shes wears her smile and it glows. Shes the most popular kid around. She’s very involved with her church (socially distant) and just got back last night from church camp. She has a best friend the next street over that she’s been inseparable with since the first grade. My daughter is extremely involved in their lives. The father’s not good for much; but the girls love him. He’s not really been around and has not financially provided since my daughter left him. She likes homeschool, has advanced one grade already and working on a second.

Then again, my oldest gd did not have the same results when she was 14. She was too mature for her age I think sometimes. The divorce hit her very hard. She was a bit socially awkward in middle school. She hated school, cried all the time and ran away from school. She didn’t have many close friends. She felt bullied and different. My daughter admitted her to a behavioral health center for two weeks. She was carefully monitored as she was suicidal and threatened to cut herself. She didn’t like herself. Through a continuum of care ~ most vital to her successful recovery. Lots and lots of love and understanding from all of us got her through it. She was a late bloomer. She started blossoming after she graduated. She’s a full blooming rose now. Her life and future is so promising. It was so difficult helping her through those dark days. Listening to her sobs. When she hurt, we hurt. She had all of us to communicate her feelings. And we listened.

All teens are different. Their brain is still developing. I feel for this girl. What happened to her? Why is Claire this way? Were there signs? Kids need someone to talk to...

 

[JMapes]

Every year on March 1st, the disability community comes together to remember the victims of filicide – people with disabilities killed by their family members.

With great sadness, Helen Miller will now also be memorialized on March 1st's Disability Day of Mourning.

Helen's name deserves to be added to this memorial, a memorial which should've never had names. Disability Day of Mourning – Remembering the Disabled Murdered by Caregivers