PA - Kenzie Houk, 26, pregnant, murdered, Wampum, 20 Feb 2009

[southcitymom]

My own son is 11, he has never uttered those words. He's never even said he hated me or his dad. He will go as far as "you are so mean" but always qualifies it by saying "sometimes" ROFL

If those words ever came out of his mouth, I honestly don't know how I would react...I would be stunned beyond belief!!! I would want him immediately evaluated. Making an appointment would be out of the question. I would take it seriously same as if he ever threatened to harm himself.

All these people that admit to their own children saying such things, do they consider themselves a permissive parent? I just can't wrap my head around the total lack of respect in some homes.

I wanted to add...it's a MUTUAL RESPECT in my home. It goes both ways, I would never say such things either, not in anger nor even in jest.

I do hear what you're saying, but I think talk like this must be taken in context. I have heard little boys (and girls) in play say, "I am going to kill so and so!"

Last year, my 1st grade son was joking around in the lunchroom and said to the ceiling, "I am going to kill someone with this (plastic) knife." Another little boy thought he said it to him and hit my son. They were both referred to the principal's office, where my son was lectured ad nauseum about zero-tolerance, as well he should have been. We followed up with consequences at home. My son doesn't have a violent bone in his body (no violent screens in his life and my husband and I don't even spank) - he's always in character club and on honor roll - but he's a little boy trying on language and testing limits.

Is he murderous and in need of counseling? No. He just needs to learn what's appropriate. If he said something like that at school in conjunction with other aggressive, antisocial words and behaviors, I would seek counseling. But that one incident didn't worry me a bit.

Both my boys have said they hated me before. Inside it cracks me up and I actually am glad they feel safe enough to get that angry with me. It's just the worst word for anger that they know and it's taboo - very powerful and provocative to them and many children. I give them consequences for such language because they need to learn better ways to express their anger, but I'm not impressed by it and I don't lose any sleep over it. Not all kids says, "I hate you" to Mom and Dad, but plenty do - enough that it is a normal phase.

Last week, my youngest son (6) was asked by his Tae Kwon Do instructor where he would go if he could go any place in the world and he replied, "to the center of the earth so that he could die in the hot boiling lava and go to heaven." The instructor didn't really know what to do with that and moved on. Is my youngest son in need of counseling for suicidal ideation? Nope - he's very intrigued by death right now and he wants to check out Heaven, but if you discuss that with him, he'll tell you in no uncertain terms that he'd take the next bus back home to me once he was finished up there. He is a child with a child's imagination. He is also well-behaved, making good grades, etc...etc...

Anyway, I share these stories not to drone on about my sons' freaky behaviors, but just to say so much of this depends on the child. Children say and do strange things in early and middle childhood and, IMHO, not every murder or suicide "threat" is an immediate red flag to send a kid to a shrink.

 

[passionflower]

JVM covering this tonight briefly....showed church, people lining up for blocks.
Asked Kenzie's dad, he was rational, but I think total shock mode.
Memorial service tonight at 8pm after visitation.
Burial in morning (private) Never saw the fiance' (father of boy)

 

[gitana1]

There are definitely people in the US who use guns to hunt for food today. I live in MN, and hunting season is BIG, so big that kids sometimes take off school for the opener. Of course, they go with parents.

I do know that, but my point was that 100 years ago, most rural people had to hunt for food. Today it's for sport and desire. Some people enjoy elk meat, for example. But almost none need to hunt for it in order to survive today. We can find exceptions to any rule but those exceptions are red herrings. They do not detract from the main point. Mine was that 100 years ago it made much more sense for there to be guns lying around, or in the arms of children, without parental supervision. In those days, six year olds went out and hunted on their own. They worked on the farms all day, worked in factories, were pivotal to the survival of the family. Hence, they were much more responsible, mature, and understanding of cause and effect. Today's kids are more childlike than children at that time. Back then, there was no such thing as adolescence. You were classified legally as an infant and then you were an adult. Kids got married at 15, 16, a lot. Girls in the frontier were considered old maids if not married by 18. There is a huge difference. Not changing our behaviors in line with the changes in society is a huge mistake. We are not going to get rid of large-scale gun ownership in this country, IMO. But, people need to be more responsible. Guns should only be made accessible to children under strict, adult supervision. Likewise, kids should not be responsible for raising their younger siblings, parents should hold their toddlers' hands when crossing the street, small kids should be supervised when in a pool, lake, or on the beach, in a crowd, or on a balcony. Common sense stuff.

 

[concernedperson]

Here's the problem. Possibly the father held these same old 100 year theories about responsibility and gun ownership. Possibly he never saw the changes in his child or had never heard of sociopathy other than notice his child was different. Or, maybe he associated his difference as part of his personality.

The apparent seething by the child and premeditation indicates much more of a problem than recognized by average family members. The child was so young so full manifestation of problems wouldn't surface for awhile normally. It triggered in this child and 2 lives were lost.

I can fully imagine her parents are numb with grief. Thank God for the anesthesia. I also imagine the boy's father is living in hell right now.

Of course we feel sad for the young boy's life that is without doubt. But we can never lose sight of the innocent victims in these crimes of entitlement or sociopathy, whatever floats your boat. We see way too many of these crimes with similar descriptions....no matter what age the perp is.

 

[gitana1]

I agree that the guy should have some remorse. But when you shoot a gun at someone you see is holding a gun (pellet guns look like real guns, which I'm sure is why the punk carried it) you shoot to kill. If you shoot someone in the leg, who is holding a gun, they will fire off a shot at you.

When someone is breaking into your house, you have to assume the worst. To assume anything less will cost you your life or the life of your family.

Criminals are well armed and aren't going to be breaking into your house to decorate. I certainly am not going to waste precious minutes to see what their intent is.

Well, SuziQ, although I am not a gun person and know for a fact that in other countries where gun control is in place, the bad guys are not running around with tons of guns leaving an unprotected populace, I do agree with you here. If I had a gun, or any weapon (and I do have weapons), and some stranger broke into my house, I would try to kill them. Because, in our country, when people break in, they often try to kill you, sometimes, rape, torture and then kill you. My Gypsy father raised me to fight back and protect myself and to never be a victim. Wow, if you knew the training I went through from my dad! I can't take the chance of being a victim. Sure, I do not believe that a robber deserves to be killed, but a robber who breaks in to a house at night takes the risk of being considered a killer. It's a hazard of the "career" they have chosen. Mess with me and there will be serious trouble!

 

[concernedperson]

Well, SuziQ, although I am not a gun person and know for a fact that in other countries where gun control is in place, the bad guys are not running around with tons of guns leaving an unprotected populace, I do agree with you here. If I had a gun, or any weapon (and I do have weapons), and some stranger broke into my house, I would try to kill them. Because, in our country, when people break in, they often try to kill you, sometimes, rape, torture and then kill you. My Gypsy father raised me to fight back and protect myself and to never be a victim. Wow, if you knew the training I went through from my dad! I can't take the chance of being a victim. Sure, I do not believe that a robber deserves to be killed, but a robber who breaks in to a house at night takes the risk of being considered a killer. It's a hazard of the "career" they have chosen. Mess with me and there will be serious trouble!

Good post. That is taking control of your life and recognizing the "hazards" of career criminals.

 

[gitana1]

ITA with this. I live in a rural area where guns are pretty much in every house. I'm a gun rights supporter. But I've never kept guns in my house. There have always been too many kids running around. Kids are smart and I feel they will figure out a way to get to a locked up gun if they want to.

Anyways, my son is a rough and tumble kid who hunts and who's friends all own hunting rifles and shotguns. So naturally he's always wanted one since he was about 6. At 11 I gave him a fairly harmless airsoft gun with plastic BB's as a test. He failed the test. One day he shot up most of the walls in my house. I'm still patching up dents years later. We now have a rule that he can own a gun when he's living somewhere else and over 18. So yeah, a kid that shows any type of problem shouldn't have access to guns ever.

That story is similar to one I have. My nephew wanted an airsoft gun like mad. Against my better judgment (because he and his brothers are handfuls and I'm not a gun person), I got him one. I told him that the first time he aimed at a person or shot an animal, he'd be done. No more guns. Within a week he shot his brother! Now I have the pellets and gun locked up in an undisclosed location, he still begs for it! Nope! He failed my responsibility test! Of course, I'd never tell him how I and my brothers and neighborhood friends used to play war with BB guns when we were kids! We shot at each other all the time and no one ever told on anyone! I guess we were rotten but we sure had fun.

 

[Bobbisangel]

We've never referred to our family as "step" either (except online, so that I may describe situations) however it wasn't a smooth transition. I would venture to say that your situation is not the norm. I've been a member of a "stepfamily" board, AM a "step" daughter, etc. I will say that our initial problems probably had a lot to do with my SD's own issues. However, I also believe that other parents play a huge part in blending as well. My ex and I get along, as well as his wife, and my DH. My son knows he has four parents who parent together, effectively. There is no going behind any of our backs, to try and manipulate. I'm sorry to say that the same can't be said for my SD's mother. It's all in the past, however, as my SD is 18. Even though she lived with us (with her father since she was one year old) we had our difficult moments.

From what I have seen in blended families the mom and dad have to act as a team. They have to back each other even if they don't always agree with each other. If they disagree wait until they are alone and hash it out but not in front of the kids. One set of kids can't get corrected over certain things while the other group don't. That really causes problems among the kids. The parents have to agree over rules and discipline for all of the kids. I think it is harder then heck to combine two families. Seems like there is always one kid that creates problems for everyone. That is when mom and dad have to take a stand side by side.

I lived with a guy a long time ago. He had two kids and I had four. He refused to correct his kids because he only had them on weekends. I corrected mine even if his and mine got into trouble together. The kids got along great but that did create some problems. He got along great with my kids and I got along great with his kids. It was just the problem of discipline that made it rough. Needless to say I didn't marry him! Believe it or not his kids weren't spoiled either.

 

[Trino]

I agree & reposting from pg 3 my situation reply to a diff. poster ........

But counseling doesnt have to cost anything, unless someone just wants to go that route. I also believe "inclusion" is a MUST for kids when a new baby is coming .
When me & my husband started dating, I didnt meet his girls for a long time. I even talked to his mother about how long to wait, etc.
Once I did meet them, every other weekend IF me & hubby wanted to do something , his daughters were asked FIRST ... and if they didnt want to do something with me tagging along, so be it. Both of us put those little girls first. They were 7 & 4 at that time.

Both girls were in our wedding. It was only family & 2 friends there. They were included in the ceremony. They stood with their daddy and I married ALL 3 OF THEM.

A few years later, we talked about starting a family ... all 4 of us talked about it. I got pregnant and the girls went to appt's & sono's with us, free. They went to Sibling classes at the hospital, again, free. their schools knew so if something seemed "off" at school, we would know - they had "girl talks with the guidance counselers, again, free... Their church also had things about/for step-familys & new siblings, yep...again, it was free, etc....me & hubby took blended classes at the hospital too (free also). And lots of library books we checked out with them.

MY* girls are now 23 & 20 and they adore their little brother (13 now) & little sister (8 now). You are absolutely right. The counseling should start before so the children KNOW that they are thought of first.

The resourses are out there. Parents just need to think about their kids instead of themselves , especially when it comes to lifechanging issues like this. """ Housework can still wait ! Theres better things to do, like throwing sticks and reading Tip, Tip & Mitten """

As to counseling resources, I'm guess the average rural family like this one has little idea where to get counseling, and it doesn't appear anyone suggested it. The boy made statements to the extended family about killing the to-be mom and girls. However, I didn't read that he said it to his father or to his to-be mom. From what I've read he had no problems in school, so there would be no suggestion from there.

 

[Bobbisangel]

This dad and his girlfriend are being put down for not handling the jealousy problem right. The truth is...we don't know how they handled it or if they did.
They may have done everything right and this boy just refused to even try. It sounds like he had his dad to himself for 11 years since the mother is never mentioned. Maybe he just wasn't about to let another family move in and take some of his attention from dad. I would imagine he was furious when he found out the girlfriend was pregnant. That was getting to close to home. Maybe he could tolerate the two girls because they belonged to the girlfriend but this baby would also belong to dad. Throughout the ages older only children have done things to a new baby because they didn't want it to live there too. Usually it doesn't end in murder though.

My friend's son and his wife had a baby girl. They had a little boy about 3 yrs too. When they brought the baby girl home from the hospital the little boy looked at the baby and said "TAKE IT BACK!" Then he wanted his parents to give the baby to my friend...his Nana. He got over it but he didn't like that baby being there at first.

I would imagine that the dad never dreamed that this kid felt so strongly about the other family. I wonder if it didn't have more to do with the baby then the mom and girls. I would like to know more about this boy's background and what kind of a boy he has been at home, at school, and with his friends. How he interacted with the girlfriend and the little girls. He did take the older girl out to the bus with him but that might have been so she wouldn't find her mom.

 

[Fairy1]

I do find it interesting how quickly some are to label this child sociopathic or evil while refusing to assign any responsibility to the adults in his life. I say this only because here on WS, we read stories EVERY DAY of horrific crimes against children perpetrated by adults. Yet cases of child-killers are so rare. Just strikes me as oddly skewed.

In this particular case, we have yet to learn details of the family dynamics, prior behavioral issues, etc. We have heard mainly from the victims' family and they, understandably, are not likely to be objective. They have lost a beautiful daughter, sister and mother and a baby boy I'm sure they looked forward to welcoming into this world. My heart goes out to them.

I don't know about ya'll but I NEED to understand why an 11-year-old child would murder someone in cold blood - likely premeditated - and then go off to school as if all was peachy. I cannot accept the idea that he's just a bad seed and we should lock him up and throw away the key. There is a reason he did it, just as there is a reason we're seeing more autistic children, more children with ADHD, more children doing drugs, joining street gangs, etc. If we don't seek out answers for all of these questions, we all will lose in the long run.

We can argue about gun control until the cows come home. But that's not really the issue here. It would seem there are youth rifles laying around all over the country that are never used to murder family members - or any other humans for that matter!

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I do know that, but my point was that 100 years ago, most rural people had to hunt for food. Today it's for sport and desire. Some people enjoy elk meat, for example. But almost none need to hunt for it in order to survive today. We can find exceptions to any rule but those exceptions are red herrings. They do not detract from the main point. Mine was that 100 years ago it made much more sense for there to be guns lying around, or in the arms of children, without parental supervision. In those days, six year olds went out and hunted on their own. They worked on the farms all day, worked in factories, were pivotal to the survival of the family. Hence, they were much more responsible, mature, and understanding of cause and effect. Today's kids are more childlike than children at that time. Back then, there was no such thing as adolescence. You were classified legally as an infant and then you were an adult. Kids got married at 15, 16, a lot. Girls in the frontier were considered old maids if not married by 18. There is a huge difference. Not changing our behaviors in line with the changes in society is a huge mistake. We are not going to get rid of large-scale gun ownership in this country, IMO. But, people need to be more responsible. Guns should only be made accessible to children under strict, adult supervision. Likewise, kids should not be responsible for raising their younger siblings, parents should hold their toddlers' hands when crossing the street, small kids should be supervised when in a pool, lake, or on the beach, in a crowd, or on a balcony. Common sense stuff.

Millions of people in the USA still hunt for their food. Some prefer the meat of deer, than processed beef, which has a high content of fat and additives in it and deer meat doesn't. The American Heart Association recommends eating Venison. It is a healthy food.

I do know several families that do depend on hunting season to restock their supply of meat until next season. It is not as expensive to pay for processing the deer as it is buying meat by the pound in the supermarket.

We never heard of very young children murdering their parents years ago and back not too long ago weapons weren't locked away but the children did respect their parents and did as they were instructed to do.

imoo

 

[Fairy1]

Millions of people in the USA still hunt for their food. Some prefer the meat of deer, than processed beef, which has a high content of fat and additives in it and deer meat doesn't. The American Heart Association recommends eating Venison. It is a healthy food.

I do know several families that do depend on hunting season to restock their supply of meat until next season. It is not as expensive to pay for processing the deer as it is buying meat by the pound in the supermarket.

We never heard of very young children murdering their parents years ago and back not too long ago weapons weren't locked away but the children did respect their parents and did as they were instructed to do.

imoo

Well, OBE, you bring up a good point. Back in the day, children did respect their parents and did as they were told....for the most part. What has changed? As far as hearing about young children murdering their family members - or anyone else - we are living in the information age. Sadly, we know alot more about all kinds of crimes than ever before. Not necessarily anything new.

 

[Trino]

I think the media is bringing it more to our attention. I had a second cousin who shot and killed his mother at age 13. This was back in the '60's. He was placed in either jail/juvenile, lived/raised by another family after he served his time.

 

[Openmind]

I think the media is bringing it more to our attention. I had a second cousin who shot and killed his mother at age 13. This was back in the '60's. He was placed in either jail/juvenile, lived/raised by another family after he served his time.

If you don't mind me asking, how has this second cousin done in his adult life. Has his life been what is commonly considered normal?

 

[southcitymom]

Well, OBE, you bring up a good point. Back in the day, children did respect their parents and did as they were told....for the most part. What has changed? As far as hearing about young children murdering their family members - or anyone else - we are living in the information age. Sadly, we know alot more about all kinds of crimes than ever before. Not necessarily anything new.

I agree with this 100%. I don't think crime is any greater "now" than it was "then" - but now we live in a global 24/7 news and so we hear about more.

 

[Openmind]

We never heard of very young children murdering their parents years ago and back not too long ago weapons weren't locked away but the children did respect their parents and did as they were instructed to do.

imoo

Sadly, I think as a society we are far less civil to each other. It is nearly impossible to compare how children act today to children in the past. Childhood has greatly changed in our culture. Children have much different influences and many are very unhealthy. I think it is very hard to be a child in today's society, and it is equally difficult to be a parent today, as well.

 

[JaneInOz]

Millions of pe.

We never heard of very young children murdering their parents years ago and back not too long ago weapons weren't locked away but the children did respect their parents and did as they were instructed to do.

imoo

EXACTLY as I say in sooooo many posts "there is NO RESPECT" these days for anything or anybody

 

[concernedperson]

Personally, I am glad for the new news vs. the closet info.I have always suspected my brother of being an sk. He exibited aberrant behavior long before it was fashionable or documented. I have called innumerable people. I think he is a diagnosed schizophrenic and I know he is on anti psychotic drugs. That doesn't quell my fears. I honestly don't know what he has done over the years and I know he will quit taking his meds if it suits him.

 

[Trino]

If you don't mind me asking, how has this second cousin done in his adult life. Has his life been what is commonly considered normal?

Ironically, my second cousin's "afterlife" was told to me by my aged aunt a few weeks ago because I was doing some ancestry searches. I don't know how much water it will hold, since she hasn't seen the boy/man in many, many years. She said it was a case of abuse, and, believe it or not, the judge in the case ended up raising the boy. She thought he turned out okay, but she's 88. Personally, I have no idea - wouldn't know him if he came to my front door.

I don't want to bore you with my family secrets, but my second cousin was a middle child of an only marriage. The other two kids never flew off the handle and were kept with the parents. Strange, huh?