PA - Michael, 50, & Cathryn Borden, 50, shot to death, 13 Nov 2005

[BarnGoddess]

I've been following it on Fox. It's big news all over.

 

[Jean]

Is this posted somewhere else and I'm not seeing it? Or is it just a big deal in PA and not anywhere else? http://www.crimelibrary.com/news/original/1105/1501_kara_beth_borden_david_ludwig.html

There is a thread in the "Located Information and Support Forum" on this case. Thread name is "PM Amber Alert - Kara Beth Borden, Female, 14 Yrs. Old"

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32094

 

[Hbgchick]

Is there a discussion anywhere here on WS? What's everyone think?

 

[Jean]

See above Link in my previous post, we were posting at the same time.

 

[Hbgchick]

Thanks Jean!

 

[Hbgchick]

Lititz is a very, VERY small town between here (Harrisburg) and Philadelphia. My co-worker lives there and is a bit freaked out, even for a guy! Lol. There have been two shootings in Lititz in the last week, the first was a police officer shot by someone he was trying to apprehend, just a few days before this case hit the national news. This is unheard of in this tiny town - think Mayberry RFD.

Here are the "Facts" as we know them here locally (in no particular order):

• There is no question that David Ludwig shot and killed Kara Beth Borden's parents. Eyewitnesses were her younger brother and sister (ugh).
• Kara and David had been having a relationship, presumably sexual. They were conversing via cell phone and IM that there was "something they were going to take care of", this was reported by friends and from records taken from computers in their homes. (My personal opinion is that she may be pregnant).
• Kara presented herself as being 17 years old on her blog, it was changed to 14yo on 11/15 and then removed entirely.
• Kara has not been interviewed by police, she is a minor and needs to have guardians assigned to her before that can happen. She is currently with her Uncle back in Lititiz.
• LE is saying that Kara is a victim "until proven otherwise".
• The gun belonged to David's father, father does not know how or when David obtained it.

Hope this helps anyone who is interested.

 

[SewingDeb]

Very interesting. Do you think the something they were going to take care of could have been her parents? I hope she was not involved in planning their murders.

 

[Hbgchick]

Very interesting. Do you think the something they were going to take care of could have been her parents? I hope she was not involved in planning their murders.

I don't personally think so SewingDeb, but this is based on nothing more than "gut feeling" on my part.

 

[joanofarc]

first of all, what did nancy grace say that was so bad? (i didn't watch it)

second, this kid is NOT a "goth" by a long shot... please. into christian rock? generic wal-mart american dress? talks in that -wanna be language?? just having long bangs does not make you "gothic".

also, did anyone find it shocking that the guy's uncle (or father or whoever) is sitting around with these young obviously underage boys, drinking beer, with pics put on the internet, for the whole world to see (unless they were just "pretending" to drink?)?? what did his "christian" parents think about this?

Hi Reb:

It wasn't one thing in particular that Nancy said but has been a combination of a number of things lately. IMO she is trying too hard to overdramatize situations...put more into it than necessary..and her cutting remarks to guests she has on the show..:doh: ....seems like the meaner she can be the better the viewing public is suppose to like it....well, I for one don't appreciate her being rude....some of the people she has on are close family members or friends of the victims and there are "sensitivity" issues that she seems to ignore totally, lately....its all glitz and glam and whatever sells, sells, sells...it just negates the reason why she is doing this which I believed was to be a "voice for the victims". An example is she put up pictures of David from his website, as he was holding a machete or sword (he was just being a kid in the photo...IMO) but Nancy was all over it claiming "this is such a dark image"....blah, blah, blah...

In addition, there is the goth reference which I got from a news release orginating from the neighbours....I don't think he looks goth either....so maybe there is an attempt here to sterotype, finger point by certain individuals......

Also, I agree with you on the drinking with the adults....those of us who followed the Laci Peterson case will remember the photo of a young Scott (17 yrs old or so) sitting around with his dad and grampa with a table full of booze...heavy drinking for kids this age, I believe can stunt their mental growth and often alcoholics claim when they get sober that they are only the age (in their minds) that they were when they started drinking....so if a 40 year old alcoholic started drinking heavily at age 17 by the time they stop drinking at 40 their age in thoughts, actions, feelings are only those of a 17 year old.......

http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/18593

Ludwig has an outgoing personality and is into music, Stephanie said. Some neighbors said Ludwig often wore black and had a "goth" look.

 

[SewingDeb]

I don't personally think so SewingDeb, but this is based on nothing more than "gut feeling" on my part.

I don't feel that she was part of the planning either....I hope both of us are right.

 

[Hbgchick]

I don't feel that she was part of the planning either....I hope both of us are right.

Well...that's not exactly what I meant/said. I meant that I don't feel that their conversation about "taking care" of something meant "kill my parents". I think it meant "an abortion" or "take care of the pregnancy" (again the speculation of the pregnancy is all my own).

I don't feel the murders themselves were "planned" at all. But if they were, I think she woud have to have been a part of it.

 

[hndinglove]

my guess is she is/was pregnant and they were planning to flee to a state where abortion is available without consent from parents for a minor.

 

[Hbgchick]

my guess is she is/was pregnant and they were planning to flee to a state where abortion is available without consent from parents for a minor.

Hmmm. Intersting hndinglove! Do you feel that they planned the murder in order to flee, or had just planned to flee and the parents got in the way?

 

[hndinglove]

i doubt they planned the murder. but where were they going if they were fleeing west? why drive aimlessly? someone in another thread posted the abortion laws in each state, might be worth posting here too.

anyway, that scenario is just my opinion; they said ludwig was rather shellshocked at the moment, which doesn't seem to be the reaction of someone who is a cold-blooded killer. sounds like maybe he was overcome by emotions and did something stupid. doesn't condone it at all, but when you're 18, you don't always think straight. especially if you've been sheltered.

 

[Hbgchick]

i doubt they planned the murder. but where were they going if they were fleeing west? why drive aimlessly? someone in another thread posted the abortion laws in each state, might be worth posting here too.

anyway, that scenario is just my opinion; they said ludwig was rather shellshocked at the moment, which doesn't seem to be the reaction of someone who is a cold-blooded killer. sounds like maybe he was overcome by emotions and did something stupid. doesn't condone it at all, but when you're 18, you don't always think straight. especially if you've been sheltered.

I had wondered that too - where were they going? And if they were both shell shocked, as I believe they were, how did they know WHERE to go...you're right, it seems as if a trip may have been planned in advance, even if the murders weren't.

 

[Hbgchick]

Hm. Seems like the only states with no consent/no notice laws for minors are:


Connecticut
Hawaii
New York
Oregon
Vermont
Washington
Washington, D.C.

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/pp2/portal/files/portal/medicalinfo/abortion/fact-parental-consent.xml

Seems like DC or New York would be a lot closer, yes? Or even CT or VT. I'm probably way off base with this theory anyway, but Indiana requires consent, but no notice, FYI.

 

[Misty-Waves]

Who knows, but I think Kara's comment about "taking care of things", was simply the use of contraceptives.
I don't know where to go to understand David. Although 18 is considered an adult, I've seldom seen an 18 yr. old young man act in an adult manner--especially in matters of the heart. (We know where their minds are, don't we?)
Horrible, very, very sad, for all concerned!
Misty-Mom of 4 Sons

 

[Misty-Waves]

Hm. Seems like the only states with no consent/no notice laws for minors are:


Connecticut
Hawaii
New York
Oregon
Vermont
Washington
Washington, D.C.

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/pp2/portal/files/portal/medicalinfo/abortion/fact-parental-consent.xml

Seems like DC or New York would be a lot closer, yes? Or even CT or VT. I'm probably way off base with this theory anyway, but Indiana requires consent, but no notice, FYI.

~~~~~~~~~~~
Since the November 8th vote, you can add California to that list.
Shocked me!
Misty

 

[Julez]

I can't stop thinking about the fact that Michael Bordon told Ludwig to leave any weapons he had outside. What prompted him to make that comment?

I have a 17 year old daughter and have held family meetings regarding curfew and other matters with her 19 year old boyfriend and the thought of him being armed and dangerous has never entered my mind.

 

[Hbgchick]

Who knows, but I think Kara's comment about "taking care of things", was simply the use of contraceptives.
I don't know where to go to understand David. Although 18 is considered an adult, I've seldom seen an 18 yr. old young man act in an adult manner--especially in matters of the heart. (We know where their minds are, don't we?)
Horrible, very, very sad, for all concerned!
Misty-Mom of 4 Sons

Hm. Another possibility, and one I admit I didn't even think of. Good point Misty-Waves.

At 18 (and also sometimes much older than that) their minds and their hearts reside in the same place. :doh: