PA - Michael, 50, & Cathryn Borden, 50, shot to death, 13 Nov 2005

[hollyjokers]

everytime I read the villianious description of this girl vs the focus being on the killer I shake my head
this young man just needs 12 riteous females on his jury and he will walk and she will burn at the steak..
there is no way on gods earth she influenced him to kill-he had that plan before he even knew her-with another family
what stopped him?? The traffic was tooheavy and they thot they would be caught..NOT- they did not think it was a good idea after consideration.

Now her background- BIG AT 14..behaves in a seductive manner-sends seductive pictures of herself to a boy-wants to experiment with sex - wants to marry the guy she is having sex with..sounds typical to me.
I would hate to live in a world where the riteous have their way-we would all be in chastity belts and covered from head to toe-
What about the boys? I dont live out the double standard.
A girl having sex with one boy at a time and to the extent she wants to marry him is not the description of a tramp or a .
I wonder if those who call her a tramp had sex before marriage?? I find it hard to believe anyone did not-so I guess we are all tramps..anyone having sex with someone they wanted to marry is condemed for life by the riteous..do u condemn yourselves too.

To the riteous and those who dictate the norms:
And dont give me the age u had sex was different and that justifies it-if she is a tramp we are all tramps.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Very well-put. My daughter will be 13 next month & I've recently had the opportunity to observe several 14 year olds on her cross country team. EYE-OPENING! IMO They are fully aware of their sexuality, but I would venture to guess not mature enough to handle what comes along with it. Not saying I approve of this girl's actions, or that it was right, but is she a or tramp because of it - no.

 

[netsleuth]

Katelyn said she could hear Ludwig run through the house after the shootings, calling for Kara Borden, who apparently was in the kitchen. He said he left when he couldn't find her, police said.

Ludwig told police he started to drive away, then turned back -- "even if it meant that he would be caught."

That's when Kara Borden came running after him and got in the car.

The case was considered a kidnapping until authorities concluded the girl went willingly. Her lawyer said Tuesday that she did not know ahead of time that Ludwig might shoot her parents and that she had no role in planning the killings.

The new filing seems to confirm that account, as Ludwig told police the girl never asked him to kill her parents.

Ludwig said he told Borden he had shot her parents and believed he killed them. They drove away and threw their cell phones out the window, he told detectives.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,176523,00.html

 

[KatherineQ]

Netsleuth - that sounds right to me. I think that's probably exactly what happened, that Karabeth didn't know ahead of time his plan to shoot her parents.

BUT. WOW. If she threw her cell phone out the window, so his whereabouts couldn't be tracked . . .

That's "accessory after the fact" to murder. Helping him escape. Who knows if she'll be charged with a crime, but I believe that would qualify.

 

[netsleuth]

More Details:

LANCASTER, Pa. — After a night together at his house, David Ludwig drove his young girlfriend home at about 5:30 a.m. and then waited for the customary text-message that she had made it into her room safely.

But several messages via cell phone went unanswered, until he learned from Kara Borden a short time later that she had been caught and her parents wanted to see him, he told detectives.

Ludwig then stuck a Glock pistol in his waistband, grabbed some other weapons and headed for the Borden home, according to a new court filing that sheds more light on the events leading up to the killing of Borden's parents.

The details are in a police account of an interview they conducted with Ludwig, 18, the day after the killings. By the time Ludwig was captured in Indiana following a high-speed chase, Borden was in the passenger's seat and, he said, headed west with him to start a new life together.

Ludwig said he grew worried after he dropped off his 14-year-old girlfriend. He repeatedly tried to contact Borden but did not hear back from her until she answered her cell phone at about 6:15 a.m. The news wasn't good.

Borden "said she was caught and her parents were there," according to the court filing Tuesday, which seeks to preserve cellular telephone and Internet records of the two. "According to Ludwig, [Borden] said she needed him to come over to her house."

It was about 7 a.m. when Ludwig showed back up at the Borden family home, a two-story brick home along a cul-de-sac in an upscale suburban neighborhood. He had two guns and a hunting knife, according to police.

There was a 30- to 45-minute talk with Borden's father, Michael. A police affidavit called it an argument that ended with Mike Borden telling Ludwig he could no longer see his daughter.

Ludwig told police that he then decided to kill his girlfriend's parents.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,176523,00.html

 

[joanofarc]

Ludwig told police that he then decided to kill his girlfriend's parents.

How do you take an arsenal over to someone's house and then in the heat of the moment decide to kill someone....seems to me that this decision was already formed in his mind before he went over or he wouldn't have grabbed the guns in the first place....is this David's or his lawyers "little" attempt at making it not seem so premediated???

 

[docwho3]

How do you take an arsenal over to someone's house and then in the heat of the moment decide to kill someone....seems to me that this decision was already formed in his mind before he went over or he wouldn't have grabbed the guns in the first place....is this David's or his lawyers "little" attempt at making it not seem so premediated???

I agree. I think its possible that he had already decided "If they give me anymore flak about seeing her I will just have to cut Kara's apron strings the hard way." He oviously did not believe he could be caught as he was reported to have said to others.

In that light, his "deciding" to kill her parents once they actually did give him flak over seeing her was not really a spur of the moment thing.

 

[netsleuth]

Netsleuth - that sounds right to me. I think that's probably exactly what happened, that Karabeth didn't know ahead of time his plan to shoot her parents.

BUT. WOW. If she threw her cell phone out the window, so his whereabouts couldn't be tracked . . .

That's "accessory after the fact" to murder. Helping him escape. Who knows if she'll be charged with a crime, but I believe that would qualify.

Perhaps, but I really wonder about her state of mind.

If these are the facts, she had one hell of a traumatic morning for a 14 year-old girl: she was caught by her parents sneaking back into her house after spending the night with an 18 year-old boyfriend (who she was forbidden to see); there was a big argument between her parents and her boyfriend in which she may have been a participant; and her boyfriend, unexpectedly, pulls out a gun and kills her parents.

Then, on top of all of these events, she is madly in love with this guy (her first boyfriend). When one considers the emotional state of 14 year-old girls in general, one can only imagine Kara’s emotional state at the time she made her split second decision to jump in that car.

Maybe she wasn’t going to go with him initially, but when she saw him come back looking for her, it was too much for her and, without any thought, she just jumped in the car.

Once she got in the car I’m sure she followed his directions with respect to disposing the cell phone.

Remember, she said she wanted to go far away, get married, and start a new life – not very rational thoughts for a 14 year-old girl who just jumped into a car of a double murderer.

I’m sorry, I just don’t think under the circumstances that she was making rational decisions, nor was she even thinking about the consequences of her actions. I don’t think that she ever formed the necessary intent to commit a crime.

If the facts are as stated, I think this is David’s crime. He stated that he intentionally killed Kara’s parents. Kara was traumatized and only concerned with her immediate emotional needs. I could forgive a 14 year-old girl in Kara's situation for not thinking clearly or rationally at the time she jumped into David’s car. If Kara is charged and I was on the jury, I would not convict her. I do not believe that she formed the necessary intent to commit a crime.

Her biggest fault was to allow herself to come under the influence of a very disturbed 18 year-old man.

 

[netsleuth]

How do you take an arsenal over to someone's house and then in the heat of the moment decide to kill someone....seems to me that this decision was already formed in his mind before he went over or he wouldn't have grabbed the guns in the first place....is this David's or his lawyers "little" attempt at making it not seem so premediated???

I believe David made this statement before he had a lawyer. If he had a lawyer, he would have never made the statement. Further, David said, "It was an intentional murder, I intended to shoot them, and I did."​

How much clearer can it be?


I also think this David guy carried guns around with him a lot. He took them on his night-time escapades with his friend. He took guns when he went off with his last girlfriend to the cabin. He probably carried guns around quite often. He was comfortable with guns and liked having them around. He didn't always use guns when he had them, but he was prepared -- just in case.

 

[reb]

OK, so we all know that the girl probably didn’t KNOW ahead of time that her freak boyfriend was going to shoot her parents, we’ve pretty much established that. , HE was legally responsible for responding to it. The point is, hormones is NOT a legal excuse for killing someone, OR for running off with some psychopath who just shot your parents, in front of your siblings—not at age FOURTEEN. At age 14 you’re not a baby, and if you are of sound mind, you have a concept of what death is, and basic right and wrong. That’s called accessory to murder, unless someone had a gun to your head. And he apparently did not.

She very well may have been afraid and in shock when he did this, and been afraid for her life, so she went along with it—I can see that. But how far would she have driven with him and not done anything?? Say they had no witnesses and could not be tied to the crime in any way…. Would she have been perfectly happy to “go far away and start a new life”…?? And how long would she have gone along with it without breaking away from him & turning him in? it’s hard to say…. And there’s a big gray area there, psychologically. If she really “chased him down” to go with him, she could have been afraid for her life, but she also could have locked herself in the bathroom (like her sister) til he drove away, and called police. I think she was too bonded with him mentally, so that in her eyes he could do no wrong…. Even when her parents were lying on the ground bleeding to death. For her to not care, and knowing that he didn’t threaten to shoot her too…. It almost makes her look as depraved and dangerous (or, stupid??) as he is.

The only other thing I can imagine—is that she wanted to go with him to get him as far away from possible from what was left of her family, so that he wouldn’t come back and shoot her siblings too… or, to try to talk him into turning himself in… but I find this highly unlikely. How anyone could run off while your parents were just shot, without calling 911 or anything, with your young brother and sister totally traumatized watching them die, is beyond me, utterly imaginable. Most sane people with a conscience and a heart would be by their parents crying, hysterical, and calling an ambulance. It was cowardly of her to run off too, as if she didn’t want to face it… and you’d think most older kids would make a point to look out for their younger siblings, if they love them.

 

[reb]

another thing- i'll bet they're going to find stuff they both wrote about " i wish my parents were dead" "yeah, me too"-- you know the stuff a lot of teeangers fanatisze abut when they don't get their way, or if they are in an abusive situation (which i don't think she was)-- and then they will use that to implicate her-- and the question is, where do you draw the line between reality & fantasy here? i bet if she said it, it was just a overly-dramatice teenage whim, but for him- he would have been a lot more serious about it, and perhaps got it into his twisted head to "rescue her from her evil captors"...

 

[CW]

I'm going to close this thread and start part 2

 

[CW]

Contiue posting.

 

[twinkiesmom]

NEWTV,
Aside from the sex part and the nude photos, running away with your parents' killer qualifies her under the most liberal point of view.

And I was 24 and married...Thanks for asking!

 

[newtv]

back in my day (the 1980's- lol) the big thing was to lock up teenage girls in mental hospitals if they were seeing a guy their parents didn't want them to see. now,, i have to say... i kind of see why they do this (esp. in this particular case!)

god
i would hate to be your child
and there must have been some overflowing mental hospitals cuz most parents dont like who their kids see in every instance

this kid may have a story that will unfold-but its because of her story-not that she was seeing someone her parents did not approve of-alot of people see people their parents dont approve of and the person they are seeing doesnt kill anyone.
Most of us are married to people our parents did not approve of in the beginning.
I dont mind that you think she is involved and should be burned at the stake.
I mind the reasoning u apply to getting her there.
She isnt whereever she ends up in all of this because she is a trampor because she was seeing someone her parents didnt like.
This is a common occurence gone terrible wrong-not the other way around.
Its not because she was seeing a boy her parents did not like or having sex with him-it was in spite of that.
There is no cause effect between murdering your parents and having sex when u are 14-and there is no cause-effect at having a boyfriend your parents do not approve of and murder.

There is a cause-effect for runnig away or getting pregnant in the cirumstances you sontinuously put out as horrible sins of a tramp..but the murder part-thats on a whole different level and
its alot bigger than the limited way you describe the events to be.

Its not going to be because of the relationship its going to be because of the particular person she was with-he was capable of killing before she met him-she did not know nor should she have known he was a monster-people much older than her do not know-ask laci Peterson.
Anyhow- I am open to the facts unfolding supporting her fringe involvement not as an accomplice but as a love struck girl who thot her boyfriend was going to be the god in her life which many a young girl does.
If she plotted any of this out then she will have to pay the price-but its got nothing to do with whether her parents liked him ro approved of him or whether she sent him pictures undressing-or whether she slept with the entire US army.
Prostitutes dont have a history of killing their parents-their Johns dont have a history of killing their parents..they kill the prostitute.
I simply see your judgements as taking away from anything else u are trying to convey-what is it that u hope to accomplish by the condemantions.
Do they make the murders better or worse-do they explain the motivations-do they add to a damn thing thats important here??
I cant see that - and the truth is-most killers are the only ones who know why they did what they did-and its not usually a logical thing - and it would have happened if the 2 of them had not slept together and if the parents approved of this kid-
He was going to kill-whether he did it now or later-he is a murderer.
I doubt she would have-but we will see what happens.
If she is somehow proven to have plotted this then so be it.
Focus on the crime not the sleeping patterns of this girl or her various stages of dress.
This killer was a murderer waiting to happen-could have been anyone he was involved with.

 

[mysteriew]

Kara Beth Borden was the second girlfriend that David Ludwig took on a long-distance trip without her parents' consent this year.

Confirming a report in a Lancaster newspaper, the Rev. Michael D. Shelley, pastor of the Lititz Christian Church, said Tuesday that Ludwig took a girl to his family's hunting cabin in Juniata County in the spring.

The couple returned voluntarily, Shelley said, adding that he knows the Ludwig family well because they attend his church. http://www.pennlive.com/news/patriotnews/index.ssf?/base/news/113282760981620.xml&coll=1

 

[mysteriew]

Newtv, I agree with you. If evidence comes out that she was complict in the murder of her parents, then I think she should get life in prison.
But until they find some complicity, then IMO she was a 14 year old girl, who did what a lot of 14 year old kids do. If having sex at 14 leads to murder, there would be a lot more dead parents.
She is paying for running with David. And she will probably pay for that for a long time. How many friends do you think she lost, because their parents have forbid their kid to associate with her. She knows her story has been told and her picture shown in the paper, do you not think she is facing stares and pointed fingers everywhere she goes? By now it has hit her, this is real- not some movie or some momentary thought. Her parents are dead, her boyfriend in jail, people are whispering about her, there are probably tensions between her and her siblings, and it is real. Her life has been altered forever.. I am actually not against her getting some misdemeanor charges against her for running. If the court will mandate some counseling for her, she is going to need it.
But unless I see evidence of her being complicit, I will not blame her for the murders!
Everyone assumes she must have known what David was capable of. She is young and inexperienced. Blaming her is like blaming the parents. After all they were older and more experienced with people. And they welcomed him into their home, allowed him to associate with their kids. Are they to blame also? David is the one who brought the guns into the house. David is the one who planned the other invasions. David is the one who pulled the trigger at least twice. Unless I hear that she planned the murders with him, or that she had prior knowlege of what was going to happen, then to me David is the guility party.

 

[mysteriew]

A double-murder suspect who was arrested in Indiana tells police his 14-year-old girlfriend never told him to kill her parents. The disclosure comes in a court document filed yesterday by prosecutors in the case of David Ludwig, accused of shooting to death Mike and Cathy Borden in their Pennsylvania home on November 13th.
http://www.wane.com/Global/story.asp?S=4159676

 

[reb]

<god
i would hate to be your child>

huh...? why? i was saying that i never thought that practice was right... but it some cases, if you can't stop your very-underage daughter from sleeping with a creep, then sometimes i can see why parents, out of desperation do this- because it is the most sure-fire way to legally keep them safe. does it always work? no. does it sometimes cause the parent-child relationship to deteriorate further? yes. but what i am saying.... is that when a parent is worried that their daughter is in DANGER- making foolish decisions, hanging around with less-than-desirable older men, sometimes they do what they feel they have to out of desperation. now that i am older i understand... especially after reading about so many cases where young girls disappear & are never found, or are murdered.

 

[mysteriew]

Reb, when you place a child in any institution (esp a juvenile institution or a mental institution) they learn a lot. Like about where to find drugs, how to steal a car, fighting, how to use force, and the "eat or be eaten" way of life. Often times they will be associating with other "kids" who may there for things like drug abuse, rape, fighting, and or murder. They are frequently the kind of kids that you wouldn't allow in your house. A lot of parents won't even let their kids associate with them.
Now if it was my child, I might try a lot of things if I found out my child was having sex with her boyfriend. But I don't believe that exposing her to more violence or unrulyness would be one of my preferred choices.

 

[reb]

mysteriew,, tell me about it... i've been there & seen it all when my own eyes! although not all places are that rough, some are pretty "cushy"... in the 80's it became the vogue thing for parents to do, when they didn't know what to do with them, put ' em in a psych ward. i saw several girls who were put in there due to dating a boy of a different race, or older men, or getting pregnant (one girl was forced to give up 2 children for adoption by age 15, and locked up so she wouldn't keep seeing the baby's father).... and i remember another girl who was white, who was attracted to older black men, who eventually became pregnant by an older black man, who was a patient in another ward for drug abuse... she was 15, he was in his 30's- and they forced her to have an abortion... (so obviously in that case, it did NOT work!)...i've seen kids who were in there for killing a parent... although in the case i'm thinking of, the boy shot his father after (allegedly) years of seeing him abuse his mother... anyway, i agree that in most cases the psych ward is NOT the solution... but i just meant i can see why for some parents it is the last resort, if they truly feel their kid is in danger of losing- or at least- ruining their life.
and as i said, some of these places are more rough than others, depending on how much money you have. what you are describing is more the state-run facilities (although some private ones can be rough too).