PA - Michael, 50, & Cathryn Borden, 50, shot to death, 13 Nov 2005

[Bobbisangel]

It could also be that the friend found out that Kara and David were sexually active and the friend confronted Kara with the thought of pregnancy and her only being 14 yrs old. By taking care of it Kara could have meant that they had gotten some type of birth control so that she wouldn't get pregnant or were using condoms.

I can't imagine her and David having sex the first time he came over to her house if it was in the day or evening and her parents were right there. She may have been talking about their feelings for each other and that her folks could have caught on that first night he was at her house. That would have been a risk if she knew that her parents wouldn't approve of their 14 yr old being "in love" with an 18 yr old.

If they were planning on running away to get married you would think that they would have left the night that she was gone all night. She wasn't aware that her parents knew she wasn't home and they could have taken off without murdering her parents. I think they are just young enough to believe that they could drive to who knows where....get married...and put everything behind them. Kids don't quite look at reality the way we do.

 

[Hbgchick]

I think it's plausable that they had sex the first time he came to her house. Perhaps it was planned...they wanted to do it before but wanted it to be "special", maybe she felt more comfortable in her own bed...who knows. Just speculating, but anything is possible.

It's the wording that gets me. "We took that risk the first time he came over.". Just seems to me that "that risk" was the risk that she might get pregnant if they had unprotected sex. I could be totally wrong, of course. It just seems to me if "that risk" were her parents finding out, they could have simply met elsewhere. And certainly her parents did not want her seeing David at all, what do you think they would have said if he had told Mr. Borden he'd gotten her pregnant? I would think Mr. Borden would have gone ballistic, which may have caused David to pull the trigger. I wonder why he would shoot after 45 minutes of discussion...if he went there to kill the parents why didn't he just walk in and do it? I believe something happened - a catalyst - during that conversaton that turned it from argument into murder. The reports all say "he shot them because they forbid him to see their daughter". Maybe, but didn't he already KNOW that? That's why they were sneaking around, because they were ALREADY forbidden to see each other...again, why not just walk in and do it if that's all there was to it?

And also - why run away "to get married" if she wasn't pregnant? I can see running away to be together, but why would a couple - even an immature couple - if they were not bound by some major issue or secret run away "to get married"? I guess it could be that they thought if they were having sex they should be married (I'm assuming that's what the church told them) but it still strikes me funny. I think there's more to this story that we don't know.

 

[concernedperson]

On CC's show it was reported that it seems David was emailing the sister, Katelyn, too. Along with other girls. This boy was really getting around.

 

[LillyRush]

I think we're going to find out some less than "loving, close traditional family values" information about both families involved in this case.
I really have to wonder what religion the Bordens were invovled in, if they felt the need to home school in one of the most conservative religious communities in America. The public schools in Lancaster are full of Amish, Mennonites, Brethern, Lutherans--not to mention the usual Baptists and the like. And there are plenty of conservative private schools as well. I think we're going to discover control was higher on the agenda than piety.

I think they were Mennonite. So, you could be right, that it was more of a control issue.

 

[concernedperson]

They still didn't deserve to die. Especially by a self serving sociopath. And a daugther that still hasn't explained just what the hell she is doing with him?This is over the top now.I will always respect a defense where there is question, but there really isn't a question now. Kids doodling with life changing experiences doesn't do it for me. This is a sociopathic mind working.

 

[LillyRush]

I agree with you completely, IdahoMom. I feel so strongly about this.

This is a father's job, and he was doing it. And now he's dead.

His job is to protect his children. His 14 year old daughter was foolishly going out with an 18 year old boy, and the father rightly stepped in and insisted it stop. God bless him, that's his job.

Where were this boy's parents? Their job was to keep numerous firearms out of their wayward son's car. Had he not had guns, this story would have turned out the way it was supposed to have - the father of the girl would have had his say, and this boy would be sent packing.

I'm a little surprised so little is being said about David's family. They need to be aware they were grossly remiss - he had a LOT OF GUNS in his car. Kara's parents were doing their job - where were David's parents? If they have any younger children in the home, maybe more supervision of that household needs to be done.

I'd like to hear more about and from his family too, but I'm wondering if they are taking a step back acting because he was 18 that this has nothing to do with them or how they parented? - which I don't agree with, but it could be how they're thinking.

 

[deanws]

There has been a huge exodus from public schools in the last ten years. The number of home schoolers in this nation is in the MILLIONS. People home school for a variety of reasons but the number one reason is the failure of the public schools to educate children. And when a public school has a "problem", a teacher they suspect of improper behavior, they are not allowed by the union to fire that teacher. The "problem" goes from school to school. I know of a school district that had to give the superintendent $175,000 severance pay after he was caught with an underage prostitute.
I don't know why these families decided to home school. But my concern would be the parents that did not offer serious consequences to a boy who is out of control. I am a Christian but sorry or not...you do the crime you do the time. I forgive you...but it does not erase the consequences of your actions.

I want a link to the super story.

 

[deanws]

They still didn't deserve to die. Especially by a self serving sociopath. And a daugther that still hasn't explained just what the hell she is doing with him?This is over the top now.I will always respect a defense where there is question, but there really isn't a question now. Kids doodling with life changing experiences doesn't do it for me. This is a sociopathic mind working.

For sure!

 

[mysteriew]

For the first time, county prosecutors indicated this week they are investigating more than one person in the shooting deaths of Michael and Cathryn Borden.

So far, only their 14-year-old daughter's boyfriend has been charged, but prosecutors are looking at e-mails and blogs kept by Kara Borden and David Ludwig, 18, to determine who might have participated in the shootings.

In papers filed Monday and yesterday, Assistant District Attorney Christopher Hackeman wrote that he needs additional information about the Web pages kept by Ludwig and Borden to further investigate "the identities of those involved in this criminal activity and their method and manner of operation."

Hackman seeks Ludwig's and Kara Borden's e-mail accounts, IP logs, dates and times of login, subscriber information and private messages on the Xanga.com and MySpace.com Web sites.

Prosecutors will not talk about the investigation and have not said whether they suspect Kara Borden played a part in her parents' death or who else might be charged.
http://www.pennlive.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news/1133447340258680.xml?pennnews&coll=1

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

You're right. Kids in public school are just more well adjusted. If only he had been in public school he would have lost his desire to date underage girls, lie, and plan night raids. Hopefully they will round up all kids being home schooled and ship them back into the public schools because of this on bad seed.
So far the only red flag on this kid is that his parents seemed to have no control of him and did not hold him accountable for his actions.

This is an example of what I said about those with dogs in the fight being unable to be objective about the situation.

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

I think they were Mennonite. So, you could be right, that it was more of a control issue.

Jeez.
Now its a question of which flavor of Mennonite.
Mennonites descended from the Amish--they're willing to drive cars and use electricity & technology and wear clothes that have zippers and buttons. But the old schoolers only drive trucks (cars are sinful) and refuse to have anything chrome on the car (pride) or mirrors (vanity). This includes rearview mirrors, folks. They also didn't approve of flashy paint jobs. For awhile they refused to drive cars with bumpers, but the state stepped in and you could see them tooling about in trucks with wooden bumpers or chrome bumpers that were painted over with primer. I think the state also stepped in re the rear view mirrors, as it was common to see a truck with a driver side rear view but nothing on the passenger side or inside the car.

 

[mysteriew]

Local authorities could decide within the next two weeks whether anyone else will be charged in connection with the murder of Michael and Cathryn Borden.

Lancaster County District Attorney Donald C. Totaro said late last week that “we hope to make a decision by Dec. 16 on whether any additional charges will be filed as a result of this investigation.”

Dec. 16 is the preliminary hearing date for David Ludwig, 18, who is accused of shooting the parents of his 14-year-old girlfriend, Kara Borden, early on the morning of Nov. 12.

In papers filed last week, Assistant District Attorney Christopher Hackman wrote that authorities are combing through electronic records such as e-mails and blogs kept by Ludwig and Borden in an attempt to determine “the identities of those involved in this criminal activity and their method and manner of operation.”

There has been speculation that Kara Borden herself might be charged in the crime.

People magazine last week devoted five pages to the story, which it titled “Desire Turns Deadly”; included in the report were allegations not yet reported locally, including an assertion that when law enforcement officials raided the Ludwig home, seizing 54 guns, they also discovered a “bunker” in the basement of the home “complete with cots, food and sandbags” that suggested a “survivalist, apocalyptic mentality.”

A local law enforcement official speaking on the condition of anonymity confirmed the report.
http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/19040

 

[PrayersForMaura]

Will Kara be charged?
Legal experts say one key question needs to be answered before deciding whether to charge the 14-year-old in her parents murders — what happened before the killings?


LANCASTER COUNTY, PA - Could 14-year-old Kara Borden be arrested in connection with her own parents’ murder?

***
“Kara Borden was doing things...which might not have been favored by her parents,’’ attorney Barry Goldman said. “Does that mean she’s guilty of a crime? No.’’

“The fact that she voluntarily went with (Ludwig) isn’t a crime,’’ Goldman added. “It certainly creates more suspicion...whether she solicited him or encouraged him. ...It’s obvious that’s what (investigators are) looking at.’’

But Goldman, who made clear he does not know the particulars of the case, said Borden’s secret relationship with Ludwig, followed by getting in the car with him and throwing her cell phone out the window “apparently in an effort not to be located...creates an aura of suspicion about her.

“But that doesn’t make her guilty of a crime,’’ he added.

“The question is: What happened in advance of the killing, if she said anything encouraging, like ‘I hate my parents, they’re in my way,’ anything that stoked the fire,’’ Goldman said.

If that was the case, Goldman suggested, if she encouraged or aided Ludwig, she could be charged as an accomplice.

More: http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/19089

 

[reb]

<<People magazine last week devoted five pages to the story, which it titled “Desire Turns Deadly”; included in the report were allegations not yet reported locally, including an assertion that when law enforcement officials raided the Ludwig home, seizing 54 guns, they also discovered a “bunker” in the basement of the home “complete with cots, food and sandbags” that suggested a “survivalist, apocalyptic mentality.”>>

well, what the heck do people expect?? a lot of the churches and families now are obsessed wth the idea of the "rapture" and "end times" , etc.. he very well may have believed all this & taken it literally, whch many of them do!

 

[dancingdaisy]

But did they really need an arsenal to prepare for the end of time? I just dont understand all the guns and such

 

[mysteriew]

But did they really need an arsenal to prepare for the end of time? I just dont understand all the guns and such

Think of what happened when the hurricane hit NO. Think looting, riots etc. That is why they think they need guns. This isn't so much Christian thinking, this is survivalist thinking which is a whole separate issue.
Christians believe that when the rapture comes the true believers will be taken up to heaven. It is the other's who will have a need for the protection.

 

[reb]

<Think of what happened when the hurricane hit NO. Think looting, riots etc. That is why they think they need guns. This isn't so much Christian thinking, this is survivalist thinking which is a whole separate issue.
Christians believe that when the rapture comes the true believers will be taken up to heaven. It is the other's who will have a need for the protection.>

but, unfortunately, a lot of them don't make a whole lot of sense.... i never did undrstand that logic. and we all know that sometimes peole get so religious that it makes them mentally ill, and paranoia takes over.

however back to these folks (david's parents)... who knows what their story is. probably the dad just liked to collect guns as a hobby, and taught his son to hunt. we don't know if that "survivalist" mentality applied to the parents or not. but either way, david picked it up from somewhere,, and it's common knowledge that, in a lot of these religious sects, isolation and separation from society tends to breed paranoia & a feeling of hostility to the outside world. somethng that it seems many of these homeschooling christianss are practicing (a lot-- not all, of course), & no doubt teaching their children.

anyone know what religion they are, btw.....??

 

[SandyBee]

what the heck do people expect?? a lot of the churches and families now are obsessed wth the idea of the "rapture" and "end times" , etc.. he very well may have believed all this & taken it literally, whch many of them do!

But did they really need an arsenal to prepare for the end of time? I just dont understand all the guns and such

Could've been a collection. There's no law that says a person can't own a certain amount of weapons (2nd amendment) unless you're a convicted felon.

Just because people stock up on stuff, doesn't mean they are overly religious, paranoid, or crazy. They are prepared in case of emergency. If you think the government is going to come and save you during a crisis, you'd better think twice about that. Were the people stuck in NO prepared? Didn't the Mayor tell people before Katrina hit to have at least 4-5 days worth of food and water? If you have a family of four, that's a lot of cans and such to stock up. Once SHTF, there is no going shopping unless you plan on looting.

If I were a looter I most certainly wouldn't be hitting homes where the owners are armed, I'd go for the ones waiting for the govt to show up.

 

[reb]

you are certainly right, collecting guns does NOT make you crazy,, it's just a speculation.
but the real problem here was the fact that this teenager was preparing for the "end times", the end of life as he knew it, or whatever catastrophe, maybe one in his own mind. i just wonder how the religion he was involved with affected him that way. perhaps that (or something else) led him to grow suspicious of ALL authority, government, girlfriend's parents, etc- and view them all as a threat.

 

[dancingdaisy]

I agree people can collect guns if they want and have as many as they want (as long as they're not a felon) But, those guns should be kept locked up away from children. I know he's 18 and considered an adult, but I still feel parents should keep guns away from their children, no matter their age. I dont have children, but my husband does hunt occasionally and his guns are locked in a gun cabinet, even though it's only us 2 in the house.