PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #11

[SeekingJana]

I know we've stopped using the copy and paste for a reason, but I wanted to thank you for the time you've taken to discuss an old case with no new info with me yet again.

This case is always on my mind, not far from the surface at any time... I keep thinking we've missed something that should be so obvious. A meticulous man of great intellect and certainly savvy to the ways of the criminal mind just vanished and we have spent 8 years trying to find out what happened to him. With very little to go on, evidence wise.

I am not too sure how much credence should be given to the Street of Shops owner and his employee regarding the sightings. It has been said that he wanted free promotion for his businesses and I guess you remember the story posted here from a PA local about a year ago concerning the girl who worked there and her mother....
Besides, wasn't Mr. Gricar often there? It is hard for us to recall with precision which day we saw a person in retrospect, usually, if nothing extremely unusual happened.

OTOH, I'm not sure that promoting a business venture in connection with a man whose car was located in the shops' parking lot is exactly positive advertising. Maybe any increased foot traffic to the shops was considered to be profitable?

It's one of those sleepless nights when reviewing case facts here keeps my mind off my physical pain a bit.

Maybe it's time I put a question which has haunted me for a long time into words:
What are the chances that someone in LE or your former AG's office was involved? I hate to " go there" but I've never read good things about Corbett. ... and some people who were friends with Ray on the Disappeared segment seemed to be saying " Gricar wanted to outsmart the cops" and pulled a disappearing act for that reason. 8 years on, seems like mighty strong words to me. How bad was the animosity?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

You are welcome. Most of these questions are things that I've been asking myself over the years, and are important. They were important to the police as well and we still don't have a bus schedule from 2005, so that possibility remains.

Bennett and the two workers are from 4/16/05, the Saturday. While he was the first witness to be reported in the press, he was not the first witness to report to LE. The first one they had was a business owner who saw RFG with the Mystery Woman in the Street of Shops after 5:00 PM on 4/15/05.

Buehner absolutely believes Bennett, in part because of his background (Ivy League) and his standing in the community. I think well educated pillars of the community can still make honest mistakes. A point where I agree with Buehner, however, is that, as a business man, Bennett has no reason to associate a murder with his place of business. Bennett has a strong disincentive to lie about it. Saying, **Come to the Street of Shops and disappear off the face of the earth,** is not good marketing. The only increased foot traffic was the police wondering around. I think you have made those points.

The animosity stemmed from a 1998 case where Corbett, then in private practice as a defense attorney, represented a client, and succeeded in getting the charges lowered. Corbett, was the chair of the "Pennsylvania Commission on Crime and Delinquency," which isn't a paid post, does not have any enforcement role, and meets 4 times a year (on average). It disperses federal grants, including to public defenders, but the chair just presides over the meetings. He is appointed by the governor, and basically is given as a political reward. Many of the chair's ex prosecutors, AG's or losing AG candidates, that are now defense attorneys, including the last two. Being chair basically looks good on a political resume. It is a high sounding title with no real power.

RFG didn't like it Corbett was a defense attorney, and bested him in court, while he had the title. I would add that many, if not most, chairs of the PCCD do serve as criminal defense attorneys while serving as chair.

I think that was the animosity stemmed. It was minor and I'm not sure that Corbett reciprocated the feelings. Corbett could have simply excluded RFG from the press conference if he did.

So Corbett is off the list. RFG had announced his retirement prior to Corbett winning the hotly contested 2004 primary and prior to election, which was extremely close. Corbett had been in office less than 100 days, so there was little chance for conflict (and none known).

[Just a note: I'm not a particular Corbett fan.]

Another LE person is possible at a clandestine meeting. The question would why RFG would go a clandestine meeting, without telling anyone else, or keeping notes on it?

 

[SeekingJana]

Re: Corbett- what I am summarizing is that because Mr. Gricar was at the end of his legal career, he was not a threat in any way to Corbett's ambitions. Is this an accurate summary?

Why did 2 or 3 of Mr. Gricar's friends say it would be like him to disappear to show LE he was smarter? The statements don't come right out and call LE in PA fools, which is a good thing since they have jurisdiction over the investigation of his disappearance, but they barely stop short of outright ridicule.
Is LE in PA known to be incompetent, or did Gricar voice displeasure with the work of Centre County and Bellefont's LE? Not being from the area, I have no point of reference.
I have known many attorneys who have thought the local police were Keystone cops. I think it has to do with the disparity in education and salary as much as anything.
The attorneys I have known personally were a bit elitist, but then so are most men I know with multiple post- graduate degrees. I live with an education snob. ( SMH).

As far as a clandestine meeting went, once a person tells another person about said meeting, it ceases to be secretive/ clandestine by definition.
However, I do not think Mr. Gricar trusted local LE very much at all. He might have the State Police and certainly the FBI, but I don't think he would drive to Lewisburg to converse with a local police officer.
Which brings up another point which has NEVER been clear to me regarding clandestine meetings or possible clandestine meetings...

What is known about Mr. Gricar's activities on April 14th? Did he go to the lake as reported? Was that a false sighting? It seems to me that a man driving out of town on 2 consecutive days most likely DID have plans for both days and may well have planned to meet someone on one or both days. I don't know enough FACTS about the 14th to form a hypothesis.

 

[Trackergd]

LE has at least 5 witnesses that put him in Lewisburg on 4/15 after 4:00 PM. Only one bus on that schedule leaves after that, and it goes NW to Williamsport and Lock Haven, the latter about 25 miles from Bellefonte. Any bus on 4/15 puts him closer to Centre County. He couldn't leave the area until the next day, and he'd have to spend the night someplace, basically in either town.

I'll also readily concede that there could have been another bus scheduled in 2005.

I think he could pay cash upon boarding, but that still has the problem of why other passengers/drivers wouldn't recognize him and why didn't someone see him when he was spending the night?

Another problem is, and it's the overall problem with some of the accident/health things to, is why didn't the bloodhound follow his scent to the terminal (6-7 blocks away)? It is possible that the scent could have been untraceable, but would just add to the list of things RFG couldn't control, but that went his way.

RBBM

Has anyone taken a look at hotel records to see if he spent the night in one of the hotels in either town?

Sent trails are not the 100% lock folks think they are. It has a lot to do with conditions, the skill of the dog and handler, and the scent article used to imprint the dog. Auto exhaust alone will contaminate a scent trail, and in a town with a million other scents from cats, to people to garbage, etc...it can really mess with even a good SAR dogs skills.

 

[Trackergd]

Re: Corbett- what I am summarizing is that because Mr. Gricar was at the end of his legal career, he was not a threat in any way to Corbett's ambitions. Is this an accurate summary?

Why did 2 or 3 of Mr. Gricar's friends say it would be like him to disappear to show LE he was smarter? The statements don't come right out and call LE in PA fools, which is a good thing since they have jurisdiction over the investigation of his disappearance, but they barely stop short of outright ridicule.
Is LE in PA known to be incompetent, or did Gricar voice displeasure with the work of Centre County and Bellefont's LE? Not being from the area, I have no point of reference.
I have known many attorneys who have thought the local police were Keystone cops. I think it has to do with the disparity in education and salary as much as anything.
The attorneys I have known personally were a bit elitist, but then so are most men I know with multiple post- graduate degrees. I live with an education snob. ( SMH).

As far as a clandestine meeting went, once a person tells another person about said meeting, it ceases to be secretive/ clandestine by definition.
However, I do not think Mr. Gricar trusted local LE very much at all. He might have the State Police and certainly the FBI, but I don't think he would drive to Lewisburg to converse with a local police officer.
Which brings up another point which has NEVER been clear to me regarding clandestine meetings or possible clandestine meetings...

What is known about Mr. Gricar's activities on April 14th? Did he go to the lake as reported? Was that a false sighting? It seems to me that a man driving out of town on 2 consecutive days most likely DID have plans for both days and may well have planned to meet someone on one or both days. I don't know enough FACTS about the 14th to form a hypothesis.

RBBM

Having worked with almost all of PA's regional police and State Police over the years, I can say with some authority that it runs the gamut. Some are very professional and rival the State Police, while others are the "inbred Podunk" version of the Keystone Cops...and that variance can be in adjoining jurisdictions.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I will agree on the SAR dogs. The fact that there was no scent beyond the parking lot would not prove that RFG didn't leave the lot on foot.

If RFG left on foot, which doesn't point to any scenario, two things had to happen.

A. There were no witnesses to him leaving on foot. It is moving through a populated area, though late at night he might not be seen.

B. There was no scent trail beyond the parking lot. As Trackergd indicated, there could be reasons for that, e.g. exhaust fumes masking it or even something relating to dog or handler.

Neither one of those things, however, would be under RFG's control, nor under the control of a killer. How likely would that be for both to happen, randomly?

The police (and the family) did canvass all motels in Lewisburg, though I am not sure how many beyond Lewisburg (there were some).

There was also substantial press in the area when RFG disappeared. By Monday, 4/18/05, it was the lead story in a 20 mile radius of Lewisburg, minimum.

Here is a map of PA Media Markets: http://www.politicspa.com/breaking-...icture-by-tv-market/43926/pa-media-markets-2/ It was the major story in Altoona-Johnstown and Wilkes Barre-Scranton on 4/18/05. If RFG was walking around in this area over the past 80 hours, there is a good chance someone would see him.

 

[Trackergd]

I will agree on the SAR dogs. The fact that there was no scent beyond the parking lot would not prove that RFG didn't leave the lot on foot.

If RFG left on foot, which doesn't point to any scenario, two things had to happen.

A. There were no witnesses to him leaving on foot. It is moving through a populated area, though late at night he might not be seen.

B. There was no scent trail beyond the parking lot. As Trackergd indicated, there could be reasons for that, e.g. exhaust fumes masking it or even something relating to dog or handler.

Neither one of those things, however, would be under RFG's control, nor under the control of a killer. How likely would that be for both to happen, randomly?

The police (and the family) did canvass all motels in Lewisburg, though I am not sure how many beyond Lewisburg (there were some).

There was also substantial press in the area when RFG disappeared. By Monday, 4/18/05, it was the lead story in a 20 mile radius of Lewisburg, minimum.

Here is a map of PA Media Markets: http://www.politicspa.com/breaking-...icture-by-tv-market/43926/pa-media-markets-2/ It was the major story in Altoona-Johnstown and Wilkes Barre-Scranton on 4/18/05. If RFG was walking around in this area over the past 80 hours, there is a good chance someone would see him.

I agree with all of the above. Thanks for the clarification!

 

[Trackergd]

Has the MC connection grown any feet over the last few days?

 

[SuperSmith]

Has the MC connection grown any feet over the last few days?

Could you please clarify?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Has the MC connection grown any feet over the last few days?

HA with RFG down a mineshaft with for others and a cache of guns? That one is virtually ruled out.

 

[Saunterer]

RBBM

Having worked with almost all of PA's regional police and State Police over the years, I can say with some authority that it runs the gamut. Some are very professional and rival the State Police, while others are the "inbred Podunk" version of the Keystone Cops...and that variance can be in adjoining jurisdictions.

Would it, in your opinion, be normal for LE to rebuff local certified SAR teams' offers to search for a missing person? This is precisely what happened in this case. Just asking, and TIA for your reply.

 

[Trackergd]

Could you please clarify?

There was a rather tenuous claim that RG was killed by a motorcycle club member and dropped down a mine shaft along with other evidence.

I was wondering what the potential for this was as I have a real good idea where the spot would have been, and since that time, one of the shafts has been filled in. Think very large PA coal mining company and their thousands of acres of old coal mines....and how remote some of them are.

 

[Trackergd]

Would it, in your opinion, be normal for LE to rebuff local certified SAR teams' offers to search for a missing person? This is precisely what happened in this case. Just asking, and TIA for your reply.

I have a cold case that I have developed a POI in and he local PD seems to have no interest at all because the mom was a known drug user.

And directly to your point, yes, they have an still do on occasion, and not just in PA.

 

[Trackergd]

HA with RFG down a mineshaft with for others and a cache of guns? That one is virtually ruled out.

Thanks. It was an unusual dynamic and would have been interesting to investigate had there been any credibility to it.

 

[SuperSmith]

HA with RFG down a mineshaft with for others and a cache of guns? That one is virtually ruled out.

Even still I would like to know where that property was that the FBI searched.

Also would like to find out if the 8:00-8:30am sighting at the Quarry was accurate. :scared:

 

[SuperSmith]

There was a rather tenuous claim that RG was killed by a motorcycle club member and dropped down a mine shaft along with other evidence.

I was wondering what the potential for this was as I have a real good idea where the spot would have been, and since that time, one of the shafts has been filled in. Think very large PA coal mining company and their thousands of acres of old coal mines....and how remote some of them are.

Yes that was a hot topic for a day. Sorry I didn't make the connection with our MC reference.

 

[Saunterer]

I have a cold case that I have developed a POI in and he local PD seems to have no interest at all because the mom was a known drug user.

And directly to your point, yes, they have an still do on occasion, and not just in PA.

Wow! That I did not know. I found it chilling that LE did not pull out all of the stops to try and locate Ray Gricar in the first days. Only the Centre County Sheriff's SAR team and other selected out-of-area teams were allowed in. The local SAR teams were ignored.

Oh Lord, I pray ... may I never go missing in central PA.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is a map of all types of mines in PA: http://www.minemaps.psu.edu/

There are some in the extreme west of Centre County and the extreme east of Northumberland County. There are none in the immediate area of either Bellefonte or Lewisburg or the places in between. Some of those may be surface type mines, without shafts.

It is a great place to hide a body, if you are one of "Da' Boys" that just killed a rival numbers runner in Monessen, or a meth manufacturer taking down a competitor in Uniontown, but not if trying to dispose of a DA in Centre County.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

RFG would have had to have left Bellefonte prior to 7:45 AM to have gotten to the quarry, even at 8:30 AM. It would be more than a 50 mile trip.

PEF's workday started at 8:30 and even walking to work, she would have still be at the house until 8:00 AM. I wouldn't see any reason for her to lie about RFG leaving home for a drive earlier.

That said, I think there were two men driving in a Mini Cooper near the quarry between 8:00 AM and 8:30 AM on 4/15/05 but neither was RFG. There were three red Mini Coopers in Lewisburg on that day.

 

[SuperSmith]

Here is a map of all types of mines in PA: http://www.minemaps.psu.edu/

There are some in the extreme west of Centre County and the extreme east of Northumberland County. There are none in the immediate area of either Bellefonte or Lewisburg or the places in between. Some of those may be surface type mines, without shafts.

It is a great place to hide a body, if you are one of "Da' Boys" that just killed a rival numbers runner in Monessen, or a meth manufacturer taking down a competitor in Uniontown, but not if trying to dispose of a DA in Centre County.

This is a good map but unfortunately in my opinion it doesn't show all mines. For example here is the Limestone mine/quarry that we have been talking about regarding the "Quarry sighting".

http://mines.findthedata.org/l/56260/Lewisburg-Quarry

This shows more mines. Another Limestone mine can be found in Milton and is still active. A mine directly West of Lewisburg is inactive

http://mines.findthedata.org/l/56260/Lewisburg-Quarry