PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #11

[J. J. in Phila]

A "quarry" is different than a "mine," at least as shown on the map.

Since the reference is specifically to a mineshaft, we can rule out quarries, which don't have shafts. However, some coal mines do not have shafts, either. I tried looking at Google maps and old mineshaft are impossible to see from aerial photographs; many are overgrown.

The map does not show all excavations or natural formations. For example, there are numerous sinkholes in Centre County (it is called Karst topography); some enter into a cave network. They are natural formations and are not mines, so won't be on the map.

Here is a map of the sinkholes in PA: http://www.gis.dcnr.state.pa.us/maps/index.html?geology=true

Ironically, both Routes 192 and 45 run right though a large concentration of sinkholes.

 

[MissJ]

MC clubs havebeen known to drive a body many miles to dump in a quarry or a mine shaft for that matter.Sometimes 350 miles or more and they do have favorite locations that they reuse. I cannot tell you how I know this cause my life would be in danger. But I know this for a fact. As insider information.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The question is, would they do that with a very high profile target, someone whose disappearance will be noted and reported quickly, and probably trigger an intense response from LE?

Even factoring out the laptop, the HA how would they know where he was? Even if following him, why didn't RFG noticed he was being followed for about 6-7 hours.

 

[SuperSmith]

A "quarry" is different than a "mine," at least as shown on the map.

Since the reference is specifically to a mineshaft, we can rule out quarries, which don't have shafts. However, some coal mines do not have shafts, either. I tried looking at Google maps and old mineshaft are impossible to see from aerial photographs; many are overgrown.

The map does not show all excavations or natural formations. For example, there are numerous sinkholes in Centre County (it is called Karst topography); some enter into a cave network. They are natural formations and are not mines, so won't be on the map.

Here is a map of the sinkholes in PA: http://www.gis.dcnr.state.pa.us/maps/index.html?geology=true



Ironically, both Routes 192 and 45 run right though a large concentration of sinkholes.

Quarries and Mines can go hand in hand. Example is the Quarry with the sighting is a Quarry and Limestone Mine.

My point is a mine may not be specific to coal. Limestone, Iron, etc. also have to be "mined".

The original story posted about the HA connection indicated a "shaft" which could've meant oil, water well, etc. as well. The PN embellished the story by adding "mine" shaft. Thus far the original new breaker has never printed "Mineshaft". JMO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

"Mine" was added late, but it has been picked up by all papers, including those that talked to LE, and the Altoona Mirror in its second story. http://www.altoonamirror.com/page/c...doubts-Hells-Angels-Gricar-story.html?nav=742 The Mirror broke the story.

Obviously wells, water, gas, have shafts, but they are not mines.

Limestone may be mined, but usually there is no "shaft" associated with the process. It is open pit, a quarry.

It was a big story for about 48 hours, but a dead end. Gricar didn't try the case. The accused killer (AK) didn't received a higher sentence, though one was sought. At least some of informant's story was false.

 

[Trackergd]

Here is a map of all types of mines in PA: http://www.minemaps.psu.edu/

There are some in the extreme west of Centre County and the extreme east of Northumberland County. There are none in the immediate area of either Bellefonte or Lewisburg or the places in between. Some of those may be surface type mines, without shafts.

It is a great place to hide a body, if you are one of "Da' Boys" that just killed a rival numbers runner in Monessen, or a meth manufacturer taking down a competitor in Uniontown, but not if trying to dispose of a DA in Centre County.

Shamoken, Trevorton and Tower City are all off of and accessible from 81. I have been all over those areas in detail over the years. I know where most of the mine shafts are and what ones have been closed up. The go down at a rather steep angle and some have air shafts. I have been to the bottom of more than one. Some have stables at the bottom for mules and one had a chapel and tiny medical facility.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Shamoken was actually the area that I was looking at on satellite maps. So thank you, Trackergd.

Do you know of any mine shafts closer?

 

[Trackergd]

Shamoken was actually the area that I was looking at on satellite maps. So thank you, Trackergd.

Do you know of any mine shafts closer?

I have connections in the off road riding groups. I will see what I can pick up. Almost all of the 1800's to 1960's coal mines were steep angle with cables that pulled the carts up and down and powered by steam engines (later electric motors) at the top. The mules pulled the carts from different horizontal shafts to the angle shaft to be hauled out.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

From what I could tell, the nearest location was about a 20 mile drive.

That isn't too far, but I wouldn't to drive 20 miles with the corpse of a DA in the trunk, especially one that would leave a lot of blood.

Most of the shafts were horizontal, with an angle, in west central PA. I only saw one exception, and they were not open. "Timmy is in a mine shaft," would have too common an occurrence.

 

[Trackergd]

Well, if you are local enough to know about the shafts and the fact that no one is back in there at night, and you don't mind sitting on a corpse until dark and the chances of running into LE is slim, and even if you do, in that area, they are not exactly "FBI material"... It's not a bad plan. Last time I was up there I found a stolen truck that had been driven along the mining roads and had finally gone over an embankment and hit a tree. Looked like it had been there for a short time.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The main problem with body disposal is the condition of the corpse, from the informant's description. The throat slash will be bloody. I could understand a strangulation or poisoning, as it won't be too messy.

The story just seems to be too implausible.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The was a stolen four wheel drive in Lewisburg on the weekend of 4/15/05. It was found near a gas well.

 

[SeekingJana]

Raising hand: Finally a hole in the ground that I am familiar with. Abandoned " beside" a gas well doesn't mean a heck of a lot does it?

Was PA doing any natural gas fracking in 2005? The water pools necessary to handle the runoff of the huge amounts of water which cool the drilling machinery would be a perfect temporary hiding place for a body but definitely not a permanent one. Body would also have to be weighted down, of course. I'd select a natural body of water over a drainage pool because it would be a permanent dumping site.

I don't see either type of well- oil or gas- as being a viable hiding place from what I've seen. They are either capped or there is permanent pipeline coming out ( what we call a T) in a closed system. I don't think any of the farmers, etc. who have leased out their mineral rights to fracking companies here in TX in the past 10 years have lost so much as an errant cow during the process. A few workers have fallen to their deaths during the initial scaffolding building process from high up in the air but not into an open well.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Jana, you know more about gas wells than I do.

I've seen some working ones, but I don't know the process after the collection equipment is removed. I also don't know if the diameter of the shaft would be sufficient to hide a body.

Fracking, I think didn't become too big in PA until 2007-09. From what I can tell, it started in 2005, but by 4/15, there would not have been a huge number of sites.

 

[SeekingJana]

I think it's time to put the entire "Hell's Angels murdered him and threw him in a well" to rest.

LE says it's not a " confession" with weight behind it, and I believe them.

Could we please back up and talk about what Ray Gricar was doing on the 14th? At Lake Raystown or not? And why, if so? What was the early spring attraction to bodies of water on two consecutive days for a man who apparently did not enjoy any water sports, including boating?

Isn't it still rather cool up there in mid- April?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It would have been in the low 50's at that time of day (11:00 AM, IIRC): http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KAOO/2005/4/15/DailyHistory.html

If he wanted to get rid of the laptop/drive, it could be a good place. He was near a boat launch.

A "doctor," who apparently recognized RFG, was there. It is possible that he would have tossed the drive, but saw the "doctor" and decided against it. No reports that he had the laptop with him.

It could have been a clandestine meeting that RFG didn't want the "doctor" to witness. RFG sees the "doctor" and leaves; the meeting takes place the next day, outside of the Central Pennsylvania Media Market.

It could point to suicide, had RFG been disturbed by the "doctor's" appearance.

It also could be coincidence. There are a lot of lakes in central PA. One photo with PEF, I think from Disappeared was in front what looked like a lake.

JKA remembered hearing him closing his office door several times in the afternoon and noted that he had a "habit of forcefully closing his door when he was preoccupied or busy. " https://sites.google.com/site/gricardisappearance/gricardisappearance

Nothing unusual happened at the Prison Board meeting that ended between 9:00 and 9:30 AM.

 

[SeekingJana]

Would he likely have told Patty about the trip to the lake on the 14th? I've never heard any statement attributed to him about that day and in light of what may/ could/ did happen to him the next day ( he disappeared) it seems that the REASON he gave Patty or whatever he said would be important.

I hope LE interviewed her about the 14th, but really, who knows?

I think Karen Arnold told what she saw and heard and I thank her for it. Something apparently went amiss on the 14th. It's almost, in retrospect, like God was extremely kind to Ray Gricar on the 14th...

 

[J. J. in Phila]

PEF usually started work at 8:30 AM. The Prison Board meeting was at 8:00 AM; it met at a different building than the DA's Office. It is very possible that RFG had not seen PEF until after he got back from the drive to Lake Raystown.

JKA doesn't recall actually seeing/talking to RFG on 4/14/05, just the door sounds.

4/14/05 plays into most of the scenarios, except accident or health crisis, or some of the really unlikely murder scenarios (he was followed). He could have been considering suicide at the site. He could have been going to a clandestine meeting. He could have been meeting with a helper for walking away, or planning to toss the laptop/drive, but was seen. It could have been unrelated to his disappearance.

Take your pick.

 

[Trackergd]

Is it possible that the doctor gave him some bad health news and put a chain of events into motion that we have not considered as of yet?

 

[Cherry]

Yes it's brilliant as ppl do go off on wild tangents when given a terminal diagnosis.....this does happen.