PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #11

[SuperSmith]

There is absolutely NOTHING which is suspected of a person that would make them unworthy of a thorough murder investigation.

Totally agree with you however government agencies don't always see it that way.

 

[SuperSmith]

He was not a small town D.A. He was the D.A. for Centre County.
In this country, the needs of the many do not outweigh the needs of the few or the one.
Ray Gricar's legal right to a thorough and exhaustive search is absolute.

Again I totally agree with otherwise I wouldn't waste my time on these boards. Again a Federal agency perhaps would higher regard for something that is of National Security vs. a district attorney.

I take nothing away from Ray Gricar. By all accounts he was a law biding District Attorney that put trash behind bars, was a great father, and friend. One story that has always sealed it for me for the character of RG was that when his friend SS broke his back in an accident and was laid up in the hospital Ray would visit and read to him. I also found that great. I am here to post not because I am bored, or because I think I am smart, or for any other personal reason than that I would like to know the truth and bring closure to his family one way or another. I would want that for myself and loved ones as well.

 

[SeekingJana]

Again I totally agree with otherwise I wouldn't waste my time on these boards. Again a Federal agency perhaps would higher regard for something that is of National Security vs. a district attorney.

I take nothing away from Ray Gricar. By all accounts he was a law biding District Attorney that put trash behind bars, was a great father, and friend. One story that has always sealed it for me for the character of RG was that when his friend SS broke his back in an accident and was laid up in the hospital Ray would visit and read to him. I also found that great. I am here to post not because I am bored, or because I think I am smart, or for any other personal reason than that I would like to know the truth and bring closure to his family one way or another. I would want that for myself and loved ones as well.

I had no clue he read to Steve Sloane. How very touching. Thank you for making him more of a real person to me and not just a missing person.
When I was a bored senior in HS, one of the teachers decided I needed a dose of responsibility I suppose and suggested I take an unusual after- school job. Being a people pleaser, I agreed. The job was an unusual one for a teenager. I read classic literature ( of her choice) to an 82 year old blind lady who had a master's degree in education and who was one of the area's first women college professors decades before. Needless to say, after about one week, it was not a job, it was a joy to spend time with her and learn from her. She had a brilliant mind and she apparently enjoyed our time together very much too. She was the only adult Ive ever read to for any length of time. Lots of memories. . You've made me cry now, it's all good.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

There was a PI on the Disappeared segment. Was he working gratis?

I think that might have been the first BDP detective. Darrel Zaccagni. The guy with the mustache?

 

[Trackergd]

J. J. in Phila has noted what could he have done...

What keeps popping into my head is what could he have known that could get him killed or cause him to depart stage left.

Any description of how the mystery woman that he met with was dressed?

 

[SeekingJana]

LOL, J.J., no not him. He was one goofy looking cop to me.
Just wishful thinking on my part, I guess, and probably projection, because I would have mortgaged my house and sold a kidney to find out what happened to my true love.

Now I am wondering how high their interest level was from the start. You know, fund-raisers could have been held and should have been successful as well. He helped the citizenry of the area greatly.
In the South, we believe in hiring PIs when someone goes missing because something unknown is going to come out.

Hmm. Writing the above does make me wonder if, at some point post polygraphs, they did know something they could not speak of to the press. Maybe not all the story but enough to be able to collectively need to " move on". I really think if there was strong evidence of death without remains, they would have held a memorial service at some point, but again, maybe there is a cultural difference regionally, or maybe they were told not to do so? IDK much about rituals involving the dead or presumed dead, but it seems to me that even the legal pronouncement would have been a reason to hold a memorial service and put up a head stone in a cemetery. No one's life and passing should go unmarked, IMO.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

J. J. in Phila has noted what could he have done...

What keeps popping into my head is what could he have known that could get him killed or cause him to depart stage left.

Any description of how the mystery woman that he met with was dressed?

I don't have anything on how she was dressed.

Any DA is in a position to know any number of things, e.g. RFG knew about Sandusky. Any DA, e.g., RFG, MTM, or SPM, is going to know confidential information, criminal activity or connections, someone's sexual activities, someone's financial status, even confidential health information. That is just the nature of the position.

Suppose Mr. X is married, but is having an affair with Ms. Y. Ms. Y is thought to have committed a crime, but at the time, she was with Mr. X. She might not immediately admit to being with Mr. X, and likewise with Mr. X. They might admit it, privately, in an interview. The police, doing the interview, might send it up to the DA's Office.

In short, RFG could have known a lot, and probably did.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It is possible that certain people suspect things. For example, LG cut back on her speaking to the press after she became trustee. She has not wanted to talk about RFG's assets. It is possible she is asking herself the same questions were all are regarding the assets.

 

[SeekingJana]

What questions would Lara be asking about Mr. Gricar's assets?
I guess you have to spell it out for me because a forensic audit was done of his finances and nothing came of it. You have stated that he had $16,000.

What are you referring to? Embezzlement of county funds over a period of years? A payoff or payoffs of some kind? Do you have reason to believe he had a huge offshore or Swiss bank account?
This is not fitting with what I know about accounting practices. He was not in a financial position as DA. The county surely had accountants and an auditor. AND there is still the matter of the audit done on his finances after his disappearance which was reported to be normal.

If anyone says this is related to Sandusky, please...
Not feasible.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The question about assets is why doesn't RFG have greater assets, based on his income. The question isn't of him embezzling any money. While it isn't proof that RFG was not getting payoffs, it is an indication that he was not. If he were, you would expect to find more money. Nobody is asking the question, "Where did all this money come from?"

They did do an audit of the office funds, and found nothing missing.

LE checked only for about 2 1/2 years prior to his disappearance. RFG was grossing more than $100 k since 1998.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Things which might have spurred more investigation.
"More' referring to any point in time after his disappearance, including the present time.

Not necessarily in order of importance:
1) Presence of a spouse. > Would be viewed as having a sense of personal responsibilities.
2) Dependent children. > same as #1.
3) No retirement looming.> Again, long career ahead of him, responsibility.
4) Credible threats to him as a DA or to his family.
5) Former acts of violence against him or another sitting PA DA.
6) A person or group taking responsibility for his disappearance at the time and it being deemed credible.
7) Goes without saying, but any sign of a struggle.
8) ANY sign that he was in distress, i.e. a crime in progress.
9) Difficult for me to print this, but- Sandusky's crimes already known via the GJ presentment.

Respectfully snipped.

1-2. A spouse would have been RFG's legal heir, and a local one might have been more helpful, because of proximity, and might have been able to assert more pressure. A minor child couldn't.

3. The timing (and location) of the disappearance led to complications. For example, had Mark Smith known that he would be the acting DA for a few years, it might have made a difference.

4-5. It would have at least been a focus of the investigation.

6-8. Had their been evidence of a specific threat, that also would have been the focus.

9. Had he been working on it at the time, possibly. There was no grand jury investigation at the time.

 

[SeekingJana]

The question about assets is why doesn't RFG have greater assets, based on his income. The question isn't of him embezzling any money. While it isn't proof that RFG was not getting payoffs, it is an indication that he was not. If he were, you would expect to find more money. Nobody is asking the question, "Where did all this money come from?"

They did do an audit of the office funds, and found nothing missing.

LE checked only for about 2 1/2 years prior to his disappearance. RFG was grossing more than $100 k since 1998.

I had been up all night and completely forgot to think about your many statements that there was not enough money to account for his salary plus what seems like a very frugal lifestyle. DOH.:blushing:
Please forgive my lapse. I totally understand what you are saying

 

[SeekingJana]

Respectfully snipped.

1-2. A spouse would have been RFG's legal heir, and a local one might have been more helpful, because of proximity, and might have been able to assert more pressure. A minor child couldn't.

3. The timing (and location) of the disappearance led to complications. For example, had Mark Smith known that he would be the acting DA for a few years, it might have made a difference.

4-5. It would have at least been a focus of the investigation.

6-8. Had their been evidence of a specific threat, that also would have been the focus.

9. Had he been working on it at the time, possibly. There was no grand jury investigation at the time.

My point is a bit different. My point was/ is that if he had been a married family man, I really think the investigation would have been much more geared towards finding a body long after the river searches were over. The active search period was short, and there has never been another comprehensive search done for remains. IF he had a grounded life with a family to support, I think instinctively his disappearance would have been treated as more of a likely tragedy and more would have been done for his dependents in the way of forensics. And probably also volunteer searches as well.

This brings up a point. I am having to use a personal frame of reference because I have no other.. When a man with a fairly set routine disappeared, surely murder was on everyone's mind after the first presser and the " Ray, come home" call outs to him ( like they were calling the dog, Lassie).

If I had been his daughter or his gf, I would have been VERY afraid for my own safety as well with him missing. Is there any indication that either woman asked for or received a bodyguard for a period of time? If not, does this strike anyone else as being imprudent? I'd have hired my own bodyguard if LE didn't provide an escort, etc. for a period of time. They had NO idea ( that we know of) that there wasn't a group targeting Mr. Gricar, and then by extension, the people he loved. It happens.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The investigation was very strongly geared to finding a body after 4/18/05. On 4/17. they began the air searches of the Susquehanna, and the next day began focusing on river and river bank searches (though I think they continued air searches). That went on for at least several days, and there were some additional formal searches after that, when the found the laptop.

Some of the accounts are in the first thread.

The thinking, according to JKA, on that Sunday, the day prior to the "come home" presser was that RFG was with a woman. While Bennett was the first witness reported in the press, the first witness that LE found was one of the witnesses that reported seeing the "Mystery Woman." Zaccagni actually said that, when they found the car and the cigarettes, that RFG was out for a "wild weekend." http://s2.excoboard.com/Courthouse_Steps_Mavens/122775/737159/1 Zaccagni originally said it on WJAC.

There were evolving attitudes as to what was happening, over that weekend and week.

 

[SuperSmith]

The question about assets is why doesn't RFG have greater assets, based on his income. The question isn't of him embezzling any money. While it isn't proof that RFG was not getting payoffs, it is an indication that he was not. If he were, you would expect to find more money. Nobody is asking the question, "Where did all this money come from?"

They did do an audit of the office funds, and found nothing missing.

LE checked only for about 2 1/2 years prior to his disappearance. RFG was grossing more than $100 k since 1998.

JJ, if I may.....

first I do not see or have not seen anywhere that Ray Gricar was grossing over 100K since 1998. Can you post a link or document indicating this? I really would be interested in see that.

I do not find the amount of money in assets Ray had as particularly of much interest. The man went through two divorces and while its unknown if paid any alimony it is clear that he walked away from both residence he had with BG & EG. Who knows if he had paid off both those homes. I can only assume he did since he did pay Patty's off. He also bought her a 40k vehicle with cash. I am sure he paid for his daughters college and they had a joint checking together which tells me she could pretty much buy what she wanted. He was said to be always nicely dressed and love to buy antiques which over time can be expensive in itself. JMO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I can give you a source, the Pennsylvania Manual. It is basically a year book of PA state and county officials that is published by the state that lists salaries, among other data. I have some older ones, and went to library and checked some from 1997 until 2004-05. His last year there it was $129 k, and that has been reported.

It is known that there was no alimony. That was reported very early on.

BG was probably making more doing her marriage to RFG; it ended in 1992 when RFG was considered part time. I would strongly suspect that she was making more than RFG even in 2005, looking at the average full professors make (and not even including her consulting work).

EG was an optician, which probably isn't nearly as lucrative as being a professor, but still would bring in a nice piece of change. The divorce was listed as an "equitable divide," and was settled fairly quickly, about 90 days after service.

The price that I could find on a Mini Cooper in 2004 was $18-$24 k. The antiques were toys from the 1940's and 50's, and old cameras of the same era, which are not hugely expensive.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I have the 2003 Pennsylvania Manual. RFG was grossing, in salary $120,225. It would be at least that in 2004, but I would expect several thousand higher. There would also be interest; the rates were higher than today.

A rough, after tax net income would be $87,800, in 2003 dollars. [In 2012 dollars it would be just over $109,000.]

You can figure, very conservatively, that in 2003-4, RFG had an after tax income of $175,000. About $50,000 ($25 k per year) of that can be accounted for savings. About another $28,000 can be accounted for in purchases (desktop and Mini). Even assuming large living expenses ($25,000 per year), basically all savings and purchases could be covered by what he made in 2003-04 and the partial 2005 salary.

 

[MissJ]

Does make one wonder what RFG was doing with his money.

 

[SeekingJana]

IF there were hidden assets, I bet he kept the financial info on his laptop hard drive. My husband seriously thinks there was a HD and a flash drive.. info transferred to the flash drive and HD dumped in the river with the laptop. We use flash drives quite often to transfer data and their best features are the ones which would have served him best- portability and the ease of using in almost any laptop and desk PCs regardless of brand.

Somehow the dumping of the laptop and HD makes a lot more sense in the context of private financial data being loaded onto a flash drive. IF he did go to Slovenia, I doubt living expenses are high, and he has or had relatives living there.

 

[MissJ]

IF there were hidden assets, I bet he kept the financial info on his laptop hard drive. My husband seriously thinks there was a HD and a flash drive.. info transferred to the flash drive and HD dumped in the river with the laptop. We use flash drives quite often to transfer data and their best features are the ones which would have served him best- portability and the ease of using in almost any laptop and desk PCs regardless of brand.

Somehow the dumping of the laptop and HD makes a lot more sense in the context of private financial data being loaded onto a flash drive. IF he did go to Slovenia, I doubt living expenses are high, and he has or had relatives living there.

Good point.