PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #11

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  • #401
If you make $125,000 a year, you will fall into the 28% tax bracket. If $125,000 is your adjusted gross income after all deductions, you will make $90,000.

$90,000

-Food ($5,200) (assuming only $100/wk (including dining)
-Electric ($840)(avg $70/m)
-Health Insurance- ?
-Extra contributions to Pension?
-Heat (1,200) (assuming only $100/m)
-Vacation (3,000/yr)
-Gas ($1040)
-Clothing ($1000)
-Gifts/Money to Lara??

So say with just these few items I have gotten it down to $75,000/year with a lot of questions marks on what he paid for this or that. Point being it is not difficult to eat up 90k with living expenses and moderate luxuries.

I do not believe there is any money missing of significance.

Well, I been more generous assuming that his taxes were higher and that he was spending $25 K a year on himself, including living expenses. Remember that for part of that time, PEF was contributing to the bills as well.

Assume an after tax income of $88 K/year. After that $25 K per year living (high). The big ticket purchases that are known is the Mini $18-25 K (and that is high), and $2 K for a desktop (high).
Year: Salary -Living-Big ticket= excess
2002: $85 K - $25 K -000 = $51 K
2003: $88 K - $25 K -000 = $53 K
2004: $88 K - $25 K - $27 K = $ 22 K
2005: $89 K - $07 K - 000 = $16 K

Total excess = $142 K In bank: $100 K+

Even adding help to his daughter, RFG would have to have started 2002 with zero money. It also discounts any interest on the money. Even modest interest should account for $2-$4 K after taxes.

This is really lowballing the savings.
 
  • #402
IF there's NOTHING to hide in the way of Mr. Gricar's finances, then why not have a professional audit done by an accounting firm and put the matter to rest? It would be a huge part of the walkaway theory put to rest if cash outflow and savings were all accounted for ( within a reasonable amount) for say 7 years before he disappeared.

I agree with the stated fact that Hell's Angels do not go around burying bodies. They are known to be shock jocks when they turn violent.. Manson-esque I would say from the history I've read.
 
  • #403
IF there's NOTHING to hide in the way of Mr. Gricar's finances, then why not have a professional audit done by an accounting firm and put the matter to rest? It would be a huge part of the walkaway theory put to rest if cash outflow and savings were all accounted for ( within a reasonable amount) for say 7 years before he disappeared.

I agree with the stated fact that Hell's Angels do not go around burying bodies. They are known to be shock jocks when they turn violent.. Manson-esque I would say from the history I've read.

I thought it was said here that his finances were looked at over the last few years.

If he was tucking away money here or there it certainly wouldn't be enough to sustain his life the last 8.5 years.

Problem with the finances thing is like I said earlier they will not do a forensic audit ever unless money has been stolen or it ties to another case. What Gricar did with his money is HIS (family) business and not ours. That holds true whether it is Suicide, WalkAway, or Foul Play. As of right now it's a missing persons case and it is not illegal to leave your life behind.

That said I do not think he left his life behind.
 
  • #404
I thought it was said here that his finances were looked at over the last few years.

If he was tucking away money here or there it certainly wouldn't be enough to sustain his life the last 8.5 years.

Problem with the finances thing is like I said earlier they will not do a forensic audit ever unless money has been stolen or it ties to another case. What Gricar did with his money is HIS (family) business and not ours. That holds true whether it is Suicide, WalkAway, or Foul Play. As of right now it's a missing persons case and it is not illegal to leave your life behind.

That said I do not think he left his life behind.

Do you have a link for the bolded statement? It is not my understanding that a forensic audit is only done if money is stolen or tied to another case. My understanding is that a forensic audit may be done anytime it would be of benefit to the case and/or there is probable cause to look at the finances.

Thanks,

Salem
 
  • #405
Do you have a link for the bolded statement? It is not my understanding that a forensic audit is only done if money is stolen or tied to another case. My understanding is that a forensic audit may be done anytime it would be of benefit to the case and/or there is probable cause to look at the finances.

Thanks,

Salem

Sure. Forensic accounting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Forensic accounting, forensic accountancy or financial forensics is the specialty practice area of accountancy that describes engagements that result from actual or anticipated disputes or litigation. "Forensic" means "suitable for use in a court of law", and it is to that standard and potential outcome that forensic accountants generally have to work. Forensic accountants, also referred to as forensic auditors or investigative auditors, often have to give expert evidence at the eventual trial.[1] All of the larger accounting firms, as well as many medium-sized and boutique firms, as well as various Police and Government agencies have specialist forensic accounting departments. Within these groups, there may be further sub-specializations: some forensic accountants may, for example, just specialize in insurance claims, personal injury claims, fraud, construction,[2] or royalty audits.[3]

Financial forensic engagements may fall into several categories. For examples:

Economic damages calculations, whether suffered through tort or breach of contract;
Post-acquisition disputes such as earnouts or breaches of warranties;
Bankruptcy, insolvency, and reorganization;
Securities fraud;
Business valuation; and
Computer forensics/e-discovery.

Forensic accountants often assist in professional negligence claims where they are assessing and commenting on the work of other professionals. Forensic accountants are also engaged in marital and family law of analyzing lifestyle for spousal support purposes, determining income available for child support and equitable distribution.

Engagements relating to criminal matters typically arise in the aftermath of fraud. They frequently involve the assessment of accounting systems and accounts presentation—in essence assessing if the numbers reflect reality.

Some forensic accountants specialize in forensic analytics which is the procurement and analysis of electronic data to reconstruct, detect, or otherwise support a claim of financial fraud. The main steps in forensic analytics are (a) data collection, (b) data preparation, (c) data analysis, and (d) reporting. For example, forensic analytics may be used to review an employee's purchasing card activity to assess whether any of the purchases were diverted or divertible for personal use.[4]"

As I said earlier there is no legal reason to preform a forensic audit on Gricar's finances. No fraud reported, no tax evasion, no cases against him, no claims against him.

IMO LE cannot go digging through someones finances to satisfy their curiosities or the public's. Its an invasion of privacy. Gricar's salary as a public official is public record and that is it. How he spent his money is of no business to anyone unless the aforementioned circumstances would arise.
 
  • #406
The sole reference to a forensic audit was this:

According to Tony Gricar, the one thing that never made sense to police was his uncle's financial situation.

"He was making a fair amount of money; but, at least from a forensic accounting standpoint, the thought is there that there should have been more cash," he said. "But, for somebody from his generation, which [preferred to] deal in cash, what is the appropriate amount that should be sitting in an account?"


http://www.aolnews.com/2011/01/25/case-of-missing-pa-district-attorney-ray-gricar-baffles-police/

BBM

TG tried, at points, to back away from the comment and there was no official comment other that the review panel was looking at his finances. I think that was from Disappeared.

RFG generally used his credit card.
 
  • #407
The sole reference to a forensic audit was this:

According to Tony Gricar, the one thing that never made sense to police was his uncle's financial situation.

"He was making a fair amount of money; but, at least from a forensic accounting standpoint, the thought is there that there should have been more cash," he said. "But, for somebody from his generation, which [preferred to] deal in cash, what is the appropriate amount that should be sitting in an account?"


http://www.aolnews.com/2011/01/25/case-of-missing-pa-district-attorney-ray-gricar-baffles-police/

BBM

TG tried, at points, to back away from the comment and there was no official comment other that the review panel was looking at his finances. I think that was from Disappeared.

RFG generally used his credit card.

Through my opinion not much has made sense to the BPD as stated through their media statements.
 
  • #408
What does make sense is that RFG's assets seem to be too low based on his known expenses and known income.

A forensic accountant can be used in the case of [potentially] missing assets: http://www.iiiweb.net/forensic-accounting/
 
  • #409
What does make sense is that RFG's assets seem to be too low based on his known expenses and known income.

A forensic accountant can be used in the case of [potentially] missing assets: http://www.iiiweb.net/forensic-accounting/

That may be the case J.J. but the key to your post is "known". I do not think LE, friends, or even family could paint a full picture of his expenses.
 
  • #410
A forensic accountant can be used in the case of [potentially] missing assets: http://www.iiiweb.net/forensic-accounting/

Is this word for word or did you change it. I do not see this statement in your link.

"It is frequently the case that forensic accounting is utilized as the initial step, from which a case will evolve. When this occurs, our network of resources, investigators and forensic manpower is always in place to follow the leads wherever necessary, even overseas. Especially in cases of fraud, embezzlement and money laundering, it is important that our forensic accountants locate and identify a client`s missing assets, which can often be found outside of the United States." Same link you posted.

http://www.iiiweb.net/forensic-accounting/

Salem-can you make a ruling here please?
 
  • #411
Since it is unknown, the key would be to do a forensic audit, in order to find out.

There are potentially many reasons to explain the lack of "cash" assets. Some types of estate planning could explain it. If so, when RFG did the planning could become important. RFG could have invested his money, and his assets are there, but invisible. They might exist with an investment firm. They might be something like a safe deposit box filled with gold bullion (which might weigh no more than 20-25 pounds).

There might be nothing missing, but LE won't know that without an audit. I think it is important that they do know that.
 
  • #412
Since it is unknown, the key would be to do a forensic audit, in order to find out.

There are potentially many reasons to explain the lack of "cash" assets. Some types of estate planning could explain it. If so, when RFG did the planning could become important. RFG could have invested his money, and his assets are there, but invisible. They might exist with an investment firm. They might be something like a safe deposit box filled with gold bullion (which might weigh no more than 20-25 pounds.

There might be nothing missing, but LE won't know that without an audit. I think it is important that they do know that.

Well I don't think they can so its moot. Releasing the cellphone records for RG might be better.
 
  • #413
Is this word for word or did you change it. I do not see this statement in your link.

"It is frequently the case that forensic accounting is utilized as the initial step, from which a case will evolve. When this occurs, our network of resources, investigators and forensic manpower is always in place to follow the leads wherever necessary, even overseas. Especially in cases of fraud, embezzlement and money laundering, it is important that our forensic accountants locate and identify a client`s missing assets, which can often be found outside of the United States." Same link you posted.

http://www.iiiweb.net/forensic-accounting/

Salem-can you make a ruling here please?

I said [potentially] missing assets, no quotes. It can "in case of fraud, embezzlement and money laundering," but it certainly isn't limited to those.

The link on that page also talks about non criminal cases: http://www.iiiweb.net/blog/outside-...ch-for-assets-and-answers-in-family-disputes/

It is much broader.
 
  • #414
Well I don't think they can so its moot. Releasing the cellphone records for RG might be better.

I'm not speaking about releasing the details, but LE has never publicly said that they have done a forensic audit and that there was no money unaccounted for.

Just as they could search RFG's medical records, they could get a warrant for RFG's financial records.

The family spokesman has said they would cooperate. If they didn't, that would not sit well with the general public.
 
  • #415
I said [potentially] missing assets, no quotes. It can "in case of fraud, embezzlement and money laundering," but it certainly isn't limited to those.

The link on that page also talks about non criminal cases: http://www.iiiweb.net/blog/outside-...ch-for-assets-and-answers-in-family-disputes/

It is much broader.

I apologize but I do not see where it is broader. It appears you are taking snips out of the site to fit your argument.

If you could provide precisely where it says they can do a forensic audit for missing assets not tied to fraud, embezzlement, and money laundering then please copy/paste that for me.

Thank you in advance JJ.
 
  • #416
~Respectfully Snipped for Space~
Sure. Forensic accounting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


As I said earlier there is no legal reason to preform a forensic audit on Gricar's finances. No fraud reported, no tax evasion, no cases against him, no claims against him.

IMO LE cannot go digging through someones finances to satisfy their curiosities or the public's. Its an invasion of privacy. Gricar's salary as a public official is public record and that is it. How he spent his money is of no business to anyone unless the aforementioned circumstances would arise.

I think this point is debatable. I would think that a forensic audit was performed before the action to declare Gricar dead was finalized. I don't think this is something that is done lightly and I think the court would require that all avenues be investigated before the court would act.

Okay, but I do understand your point. Thanks for providing the link.

Salem
 
  • #417
I apologize but I do not see where it is broader. It appears you are taking snips out of the site to fit your argument.

If you could provide precisely where it says they can do a forensic audit for missing assets not tied to fraud, embezzlement, and money laundering then please copy/paste that for me.

Thank you in advance JJ.

Money is not necessarily tucked away in unknown bank accounts, but in stock accounts or other asset accounts already established and known. That doesn’t mean we don’t locate hidden money or hidden bank accounts. The question to be answered is whether or not the person is taking assets or moving assets and that’s the question we answer.

http://www.iiiweb.net/blog/outside-...ch-for-assets-and-answers-in-family-disputes/

Perhaps it would be better to find a statement where a forensic audit can only be ordered if it is "tied to fraud, embezzlement, and money laundering."
 
  • #418
Is this word for word or did you change it. I do not see this statement in your link.

"It is frequently the case that forensic accounting is utilized as the initial step, from which a case will evolve. When this occurs, our network of resources, investigators and forensic manpower is always in place to follow the leads wherever necessary, even overseas. Especially in cases of fraud, embezzlement and money laundering, it is important that our forensic accountants locate and identify a client`s missing assets, which can often be found outside of the United States." Same link you posted.

http://www.iiiweb.net/forensic-accounting/

Salem-can you make a ruling here please?

Yes, SuperSmith - my ruling is that we all agree to disagree, myself included. We all get to interpret information as we see fit and assign it the weight we feel it warrants.

Without some official word from LE or MSM, we will not know if a forensic audit was done and/or why it might have been done. So, we can only speculate. And everyone's speculation carries the same weight. It is all good stuff.

Salem

ETA: The quote is in the link, second to last full paragraph.
 
  • #419
I guess I am confused. The whole HAMC thingy, with elements since corroborated by Buehner's pen pal from 2010, supposedly has no merit because Weaver (Bellefonte PD chief) said so, even while contradicting his own investigator, Rickard. But the financial audit conducted by the FBI on Gricar's finances over a period of years, which showed nothing unusual (has no merit) according to the BPD, must be disbelieved because...why again?
 
  • #420
I guess I am confused. The whole HAMC thingy, with elements since corroborated by Buehner's pen pal from 2010, supposedly has no merit because Weaver (Bellefonte PD chief) said so, even while contradicting his own investigator, Rickard. But the financial audit conducted by the FBI on Gricar's finances over a period of years, which showed nothing unusual (has no merit) according to the BPD, must be disbelieved because...why again?

It has merit if you assign it merit. I'm not up to speed on that that issue. I was only trying to clarify for myself the parameters on a forensic audit.

I leave it to you guys to carry on :escape:

Salem
 
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