PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #11

[J. J. in Phila]

Let's be crystal clear shall we. Sloane is now a felon which included charges of distribution. http://www.statecollege.com/news/lo...even-years-probation-on-drug-charges,1380027/

Sloane also admitted his addiction to Oxy

"He said he was a former Oxycontin addict," the complaint said

http://www.centredaily.com/2012/10/02/3356578/former-centre-county-da-steve.html#storylink=cpy

I only suggested it possible that RG screwed up some of the HA dealings, not that it was because he prosecuted them per say. In my opinion your are twisting my posts to fit your argument.

SPS's conviction however had nothing to do with "corruption," had nothing to do with his employment in 1999, or through his time as an ADA. As for his addiction, it to a prescribed drug and was not illegal; yes, that does happen, even to one US Supreme Court Justice. None of these things involve SPS or RFG being "corrupt."

Now we have A. K., a former Hells Angel and an informant on them. Why would he be involved or care about RFG being in debt to the Hells Angels?

The is no suggestion that A. K. had any dealings as a Hells Angel in Centre County; he was active in NY. There is no suggestion that the Hells Angels were prosecuted in Centre County. There is no suggestion that RFG ever owed them any debt. There is no suggestion that RFG ran a "corrupt office." Yet, according to the ABC 23 source, that is something that is the reason A. K. murdered RFG.

Yet we have people that want to believe one of the three versions of the story, even though two versions have factual errors (one that is laughable). The third version, the "corrupt" one, does not make any sense.

There is a difference between a debt and cutting into someone's (illegal) business.

It this is the best murder scenario, RFG must have walked away.

 

[SuperSmith]

SPS's conviction however had nothing to do with "corruption," had nothing to do with his employment in 1999, or through his time as an ADA. As for his addiction, it to a prescribed drug and was not illegal; yes, that does happen, even to one US Supreme Court Justice. None of these things involve SPS or RFG being "corrupt."

Now we have A. K., a former Hells Angel and an informant on them. Why would he be involved or care about RFG being in debt to the Hells Angels?

The is no suggestion that A. K. had any dealings as a Hells Angel in Centre County; he was active in NY. There is no suggestion that the Hells Angels were prosecuted in Centre County. There is no suggestion that RFG ever owed them any debt. There is no suggestion that RFG ran a "corrupt office." Yet, according to the ABC 23 source, that is something that is the reason A. K. murdered RFG.

Yet we have people that want to believe one of the three versions of the story, even though two versions have factual errors (one that is laughable). The third version, the "corrupt" one, does not make any sense.

There is a difference between a debt and cutting into someone's (illegal) business.

It this is the best murder scenario, RFG must have walked away.

Post#736 - The one informant suggests RG owed money to the Hells Angels. On the surface that can be construed that RG was on the take or in shady dealings with them. You and I know better so what I take from that statement is that he owed them because he disrupted a deal or plans of there's whatever that may be (drugs, stolen property, etc.)

I don't know how to satisfy you with what I am posting. My frustration is starting to surface so lets just leave it be.

:banghead:

 

[SuperSmith]

It this is the best murder scenario, RFG must have walked away.

I never indicated it was the best murder scenario but it is of current interest to some. You have made it perfectly clear that you do not believe in or willing to entertain the possibility of it.

As Salem said: "Scroll & Roll" :tyou:

Being that you have a percentage of 40+% for foul play perhaps you'd like to discuss what you believe to be the best foul play scenario??

I only have seen you talk walk away. Change of pace is good sometimes. I entertained your finances angle. :sigh:

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Post#736 - The one informant suggests RG owed money to the Hells Angels. On the surface that can be construed that RG was on the take or in shady dealings with them. You and I know better so what I take from that statement is that he owed them because he disrupted a deal or plans of there's whatever that may be (drugs, stolen property, etc.)

I don't know how to satisfy you with what I am posting. My frustration is starting to surface so lets just leave it be.

:banghead:

Even if the theory that the word "debt" means something else than something that is owed, there has been no suggestion that there has been any activities by any then current members of the Hells Angels that were subject to action by the Centre County DA's Office.

This was an ex-member, who was an informant. Current Hells Angels might say that the jailed person deserved it for being a "snitch." When he was in the HA, he was living in another state.

Does it make any sense that the current HA are going to this informant and say, "Gricar owes us?" Does it make any sense that this informant is going to call up his old comrades and say, "Does Gricar owe you guys anything?"

We have three different versions of this story, all of which lack credibility. They are literally incredible.

 

[SuperSmith]

Even if the theory that the word "debt" means something else than something that is owed, there has been no suggestion that there has been any activities by any then current members of the Hells Angels that were subject to action by the Centre County DA's Office.

This was an ex-member, who was an informant. Current Hells Angels might say that the jailed person deserved it for being a "snitch." When he was in the HA, he was living in another state.

Does it make any sense that the current HA are going to this informant and say, "Gricar owes us?" Does it make any sense that this informant is going to call up his old comrades and say, "Does Gricar owe you guys anything?"

We have three different versions of this story, all of which lack credibility. They are literally incredible.

:newhere:

 

[SuperSmith]

Tony Gricar said. “Then on the other hand, if there was a foul play element, a prisoner might be just as good a source as anyone on the planet.”

Read more here: http://www.centredaily.com/2013/09/20/3797720/police-investigate-claim-that.html#storylink=cpy

 

[SuperSmith]

Tony Gricar said. “Then on the other hand, if there was a foul play element, a prisoner might be just as good a source as anyone on the planet.”

Read more here: http://www.centredaily.com/2013/09/20/3797720/police-investigate-claim-that.html#storylink=cpy

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I never indicated it was the best murder scenario but it is of current interest to some. You have made it perfectly clear that you do not believe in or willing to entertain the possibility of it.

As Salem said: "Scroll & Roll" :tyou:

Being that you have a percentage of 40+% for foul play perhaps you'd like to discuss what you believe to be the best foul play scenario??

I only have seen you talk walk away. Change of pace is good sometimes. I entertained your finances angle. :sigh:

Well, I have talked about the possibility of foul play and suicide repeatedly. In this case, I took the mine shaft story seriously, until the details and the two other versions popped up.

Here is something in response to why RFG could be distraught:

Well, this, like most of the evidence may point to different things.

1. It could point to RFG being depressed, and suicidal.

2. It could point to RFG anxious about a major life change, walking away, and making the last minute arrangements.

3. It could point to a PSU or PSU-like situation. Something from an old case raised its head, and RFG realized that he would have to handle it. It might be an embarrassing situation.

4. It could point to RFG ending a relationship with someone and anxiety over it.

5. RFG might just have tired and this was not related.

We can use it to rule out some things, perhaps, with other things, but it is just one piece of the puzzle.

Three and four could easily point to foul play; five doesn't point to it but doesn't exclude it either.

As for finances, why would RFG's interest be so low? It was less than $1300 from a single source in both 2004 and 2005, even including tax exempt interest.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Tony Gricar said. “Then on the other hand, if there was a foul play element, a prisoner might be just as good a source as anyone on the planet.”

Read more here: http://www.centredaily.com/2013/09/20/3797720/police-investigate-claim-that.html#storylink=cpy

That was prefaced with: “Going back to the early days after Ray’s disappearance, there have been specifically prisoners with stories from their cellmates or someone who knows someone,...”

Read more here: http://www.centredaily.com/2013/09/20/3797720/police-investigate-claim-that.html#storylink=cpy


There have been a lot of fanciful stories, which to get checked out and ruled out. We just usually don't hear about them.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

SPM doesn't impress me. She is a glamor DA that spends entirely too much time on FB & Twitter to be considered a true professional. She doesn't come close to RG.

I hope the gallery forgives me for not getting excited about a quote from her that is 3 years old.

In terms of electability, SPM is slightly stronger than RFG. She has shown more electoral strength than any DA since 1981.

There is a blog analyzing the election results.

http://www.centredaily.com/2013/11/06/3873623/congratulations-to-ms-parks-miller.html

It is similar in type, though not in tone, to a blog looking at the 2009 results written just after that election.

 

[MissJ]

Many MC's are in to murder..I know it for a fact. They do not always kill the person on the site where they pick him up. (or her) They have been known to take the live person far away (sometimes hundreds of miles) and kill them at the dump site. They might be a NY club or a Chicago club but do whatever they want in any state. I know of massive dump sites and I know some of the people who put people in those dump sites. They might also kill someone, anyone for disrespecting a member of the club. believe me or not. The informant probably thought he should have gotten off with no sentence. Thus he was disrespected. Don't believe me, I'm fine with that. I'm telling you what I know.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Many MC's are in to murder..I know it for a fact. They do not always kill the person on the site where they pick him up. (or her) They have been known to take the live person far away (sometimes hundreds of miles) and kill them at the dump site. They might be a NY club or a Chicago club but do whatever they want in any state. I know of massive dump sites and I know some of the people who put people in those dump sites. They might also kill someone, anyone for disrespecting a member of the club. believe me or not. The informant probably thought he should have gotten off with no sentence. Thus he was disrespected. Don't believe me, I'm fine with that. I'm telling you what I know.

Well, the problem isn't hiding bodies or where the HAMC is located. It is that the accused killer, A. K., was not a member at the time. He was a known government informant on the HAMC and a former member. That changes the dynamic, beyond that. Are the Hells Angels going to defend the honor, as it were, of a ex-member who was a snitch?

My answer is no. A. K. would probably end up in the mineshaft. Criminals don't like informants.

Second, one source said that RFG owed the HAMC. They are not a bank and RFG had money. If, has been suggested RFG somehow cost the HAMC some money, what case was it? I have not heard of any case like that. Further, how (and why) would an ex-member order a hit by the Hells Angels, especially one not too popular.

Further, is there any suggestion that the HA ever targeted anyone known to be in LE over a prosecution? How about a prosecutor specifically?

 

[SuperSmith]

Well, the problem isn't hiding bodies or where the HAMC is located. It is that the accused killer, A. K., was not a member at the time. He was a known government informant on the HAMC and a former member. That changes the dynamic, beyond that. Are the Hells Angels going to defend the honor, as it were, of a ex-member who was a snitch?

My answer is no. A. K. would probably end up in the mineshaft. Criminals don't like informants.

Second, one source said that RFG owed the HAMC. They are not a bank and RFG had money. If, has been suggested RFG somehow cost the HAMC some money, what case was it? I have not heard of any case like that. Further, how (and why) would an ex-member order a hit by the Hells Angels, especially one not too popular.

Further, is there any suggestion that the HA ever targeted anyone known to be in LE over a prosecution? How about a prosecutor specifically?

Well, J.J. we have been over this. The informant indicated that a former HA member was responsible for and was at the behest of this individual.

http://www.altoonamirror.com/page/c...Police-probe-claim-Gricar-killed.html?nav=742

That does not mean he actually did the killing himself but rather a hit was put on RG by this individual. It also could be a case where the HAMC quite frankly don't mind having this tied to them and the story was embellished a bit. Would add to their persona as a feared MC.

As far as the "owing" sound bite it can just as easily mean that RG screwed up their plans in their dealings.

For example say the HA's were the supplier to Taji "Verbal" Lee? This is just an example and but no means am I saying that as fact.

 

[Saunterer]

Many MC's are in to murder..I know it for a fact. They do not always kill the person on the site where they pick him up. (or her) They have been known to take the live person far away (sometimes hundreds of miles) and kill them at the dump site. They might be a NY club or a Chicago club but do whatever they want in any state. I know of massive dump sites and I know some of the people who put people in those dump sites. They might also kill someone, anyone for disrespecting a member of the club. believe me or not. The informant probably thought he should have gotten off with no sentence. Thus he was disrespected. Don't believe me, I'm fine with that. I'm telling you what I know.

The alleged perpetrator (not Bock's informant) apparently thought his 1999 sentence was too harsh.

I have seen nothing indicating that HAMC members carried out the deed. Buehner's informant indicated the people were from Clearfield County and western Centre County. As pointed out, central PA is not exactly a haven of the HAMC. Curiously though, the person alleged to have masterminded the hit has connections to the area mentioned.

There are 3 people alleging some similar information. I do not believe ABC's (Sinderson's) source is the same as Bock's and definitely is not Buehner's source. Sinderson's source wrote that there was another inmate who could confirm certain information and who knew where the body was dumped. Bock's source is that other inmate. Sinderson's source is therefore not Bock's source. Sinderson indicated his source was an incarcerated Centre County resident. Buehner's source was a Schuylkill County resident. Sinderson's source is therefore not Buehner's source.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Well, J.J. we have been over this. The informant indicated that a former HA member was responsible for and was at the behest of this individual.

http://www.altoonamirror.com/page/c...Police-probe-claim-Gricar-killed.html?nav=742

That does not mean he actually did the killing himself but rather a hit was put on RG by this individual. It also could be a case where the HAMC quite frankly don't mind having this tied to them and the story was embellished a bit. Would add to their persona as a feared MC.

The individual was, in 2005, no longer a a Hells Angels and was a known informant. He is not going to be in a position to order anyone, nor would he concerned about anything RFG owed the Hells Angels.

It could be that Bock's source wanted a day trip and/or wanted to curry favor with the authorities. Or, the source didn't like the idea that the guy was an informant and concocted a story.

As far as the "owing" sound bite it can just as easily mean that RG screwed up their plans in their dealings.

For example say the HA's were the supplier to Taji "Verbal" Lee? This is just an example and but no means am I saying that as fact.

We don't have any case like that or any suggestion than there were any HAMC members prosecuted. Further, why is this guy, ex-HAMC and an informant going to do anything for or the Hells Angels?

Also, if the was an arrest, who would they blame, the DA or the police making the arrest? RFG was not known as an investigating district attorney.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The alleged perpetrator (not Bock's informant) apparently thought his 1999 sentence was too harsh.

The source for the information was Bock's source; we do not know what A K thought about it. We do know that the sentence was less harsh than requested.

I have seen nothing indicating that HAMC members carried out the deed. Burhner's informant indicated the people were from Clearfield County and western Centre County. As pointed out, central PA is not exactly a haven of the HAMC. Curiously though, the person alleged to have masterminded the hit has connections to the area mentioned.

That is where the crime was committed, and that was known. I'm not sure about "people."

There are 3 people alleging some similar information. I do not believe ABC's (Sinderson's) source is the same as Bock's and definitely is not Buehner's source. Sinderson's source wrote that there was another inmate who could confirm certain information and who knew where the body was dumped. Bock's source is that other inmate. Sinderson's source is therefore not Bock's source. Sinderson indicated his source was an incarcerated Centre County resident. Buehner's source was a Schuylkill County resident. Sinderson's source is therefore not Buehner's source.

It may be that Bock's source is the ABC 23 source. Both wrote letters and both wrote them to media in Altoona. Now, why not write to the CDT or the PN, both of which have covered the Gricar story in greater depth? Even PPG is probably more familiar with the story than the Mirror.

Now, did Bock's source talk to Buehner's source? We really can't say it was three different people, just three different versions.

Here is what the sources claim:

RFG down a mineshaft = BB, Bock
Harsh sentence = Bock, possibly BB (I'm not sure if he got that his source or Bock)
Debt = 23
HA action = 23?
RFG in Quarryville, Bucks County = BB
Source Altoona = Bock, 23

Things that we know are wrong: Harsh sentence and Quarryville.

 

[Saunterer]

Having actually critically analyzed all three media pieces, it is clear that there are now three distinctly different sources, all essentially alleging a hit on Gricar...tracing back to one individual (known to us) who had ties in central Pennsylvania and who is presently a fugitive from justice living in Maine. Frankly, I cannot fathom why anyone would just ignore this information, even if it ultimately proves to be nothing.

 

[SuperSmith]

Switching gears for a moment I am sure many have been following the Sandusky/PSU ordeal.

It seems to me that should Gricar had moved forward with charges against Sandusky in 2005 that it put many people at jeopardy.

Who had the most to lose in regards to Sandusky being convicted? Someone behind the curtains that we do not know about? Or someone in plain view that was never thought of.

I still hold the Sandusky situation as large possibility for Ray Gricar becoming a victim of foul play.

This site has had some good analysis in my opinion albeit exaggerated at times.

http://notpsu.blogspot.com/

 

[SuperSmith]

Having actually critically analyzed all three media pieces, it is clear that there are now three distinctly different sources, all essentially alleging a hit on Gricar...tracing back to one individual (known to us) who had ties in central Pennsylvania and who is presently a fugitive from justice living in Maine. Frankly, I cannot fathom why anyone would just ignore this information, even if it ultimately proves to be nothing.

Thank you for being thorough Saunterer. I tend to agree that "Three's Company" here and certainly is more information than we learned in the last couple of years and is definitely an avenue of interest and deserves to be explored.

:twocents:

 

[Saunterer]

As noted there could be, and very possibly were additional expenses. We know of a minor one, RFG's law license.

There could be some additional costs. Goodall set up the reward prior to the establishment of the trusteeship, so some of the money could have gone to the cost of setting up and advertising it. As indicated, the costs of setting up the trusteeship could have come out of that.

Life insurance could be an expense. Even if he purchased whole life for $100 K in 1980 at age 35, it could cost around $1500/year. That could easily come to $7,500-$9,000. http://www.statefarm.com/insurance/life_annuity/life/whole/whole.asp There could be other or higher costs than that.

Obviously, LG would pay the premium because it would lower her tax liability and increase the amount of money she gets.

Not withstanding petty nonsense, the information Trackergd obtained and posted here has been satisfactorily addressed, IMHO. You do not charge 15K to administer a 1K estate. What is missing, IMHO, is the estate planning RG previously put in place and which his daughter, as the court appointed trustee, saw through. IMO, and in LE's opinion, there is no missing money.