PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #11

[Salem]

Karen Arnold, who worked side by side with Ray Gricar for almost 20 years does not believe Ray Gricar walked away from his life so why should I believe those who have never even met Mr. Gricar when they say he did?

Although everyone is entitled to believe whatever they'd like I submit that there is no basis or factual evidence that he walked away. Pure speculation [modsnip]. This is my opinion to which I am entitled by the rules of conduct in this forum.

The problem is that there is no hard evidence that he met with foul play either. Or even that he caused his own demise. We have NO answers. If you don't think he walked away, that's fine. Say why and we will read and maybe even respond.

But, that doesn't preclude others from entertaining the idea that he might have walked away. They can say why also and we will read and we might respond.

Nothing is off the table here. Its not a contest about who is right and who is wrong. It is an exploration of the facts that are available, some theories, some speculation and an attempt to follow the few clues available. All of which can be done without attacking other posters.

Salem

 

[SuperSmith]

"This was not the kind of guy who would take a walk on the wild side," said Steve Sloane, an assistant district attorney who worked alongside Gricar for nearly a decade and considered him a close friend outside of work. "If he had a secret life, boy, it would be miraculous because no one ever got a whiff of it."

http://www.cleveland.com/whateverhappened/index.ssf/2005/04/missing_man_has_close_ties_to.html

"I think he's alive," Sloane said Wednesday, quickly acknowledging the only undisputed fact: There's no proof of that - or anything.

"Any of these options - foul play, walkaway, suicide - if in the end we find out one," he said, "none of them are going to be any more bizarre than the others."

http://articles.philly.com/2011-07-31/news/29835864_1_investigators-retirement-plans-ray-gricar

Amos Goodall, the lawyer representing Lara Gricar, said investigators had two new leads on the case, but he would not elaborate. Goodall's opinion? Gricar was killed.

"I can't believe that he would have spent the last six years causing his family to be in the real purgatory that they have been in," he said. "If he were alive, he would've contacted his family."

http://articles.philly.com/2011-07-31/news/29835864_1_investigators-retirement-plans-ray-gricar

After hearing Gricar was missing, Sloane said he initially thought Gricar was just on an extended vacation since he had disappeared for a few days in the past. Sloane said he suggested police contact the security office at Jacobs Field, where Gricar’s favorite team, the Cleveland Indians, plays.

“Personally, that is what I thought had happened,” Sloane said. “Just a hunch, but I was apparently wrong.”

http://projectjason.org/forums/topic/2128-missing-man-ray-frank-gricar-pa-04152005/

Sloane said Gricar was looking forward to retirement. It would mean more time to see his daughter and more time to see the leaves change in Vermont and pop into antiques stores to find a treasured addition to his collection of antique cameras.

Gricar was so excited, in fact, that he and Fornicola would often get together at a restaurant on a Friday night, order drinks and count down the days to retirement.

"They would toast how close it was getting," Sloane said. "He knew how many days were left."

http://www.freedomcrowsnest.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7639

 

[J. J. in Phila]

"This was not the kind of guy who would take a walk on the wild side," said Steve Sloane, an assistant district attorney who worked alongside Gricar for nearly a decade and considered him a close friend outside of work. "If he had a secret life, boy, it would be miraculous because no one ever got a whiff of it."

http://www.cleveland.com/whateverhappened/index.ssf/2005/04/missing_man_has_close_ties_to.html

Well, I don't think anyone is considering that RFG had a secret life prior to 4/15/05. I have not. I have talked about the possibility of a new life.

I would also note that "Take a Walk on the Wild Side," is a fairly well known song that has this lyric:

Holly came from Miami, F.L.A.
Hitch-hiked her way across the U.S.A.
Plucked her eyebrows on the way
Shaved her legs and then he was a she
She says, "Hey, babe,
Take a walk on the wild side."
Said, "Hey, honey,
Take a walk on the wild side."

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/loureed/walkonthewildside.html

Sloane has indicated that RFG was not gay, but has noted that people were asking about it. All evidence I have indicates RFG was straight.

"I think he's alive," Sloane said Wednesday, quickly acknowledging the only undisputed fact: There's no proof of that - or anything.

"Any of these options - foul play, walkaway, suicide - if in the end we find out one," he said, "none of them are going to be any more bizarre than the others."

http://articles.philly.com/2011-07-31/news/29835864_1_investigators-retirement-plans-ray-gricar

I think the evidence, or lack thereof, has been noted.

Amos Goodall, the lawyer representing Lara Gricar, said investigators had two new leads on the case, but he would not elaborate. Goodall's opinion? Gricar was killed.

"I can't believe that he would have spent the last six years causing his family to be in the real purgatory that they have been in," he said. "If he were alive, he would've contacted his family."

http://articles.philly.com/2011-07-31/news/29835864_1_investigators-retirement-plans-ray-gricar

If RFG had contacted the family, LG would have been committing a crime going into court a claiming that she had not heard from him. That would be a strong motive for RFG not telling any family member.

After hearing Gricar was missing, Sloane said he initially thought Gricar was just on an extended vacation since he had disappeared for a few days in the past. Sloane said he suggested police contact the security office at Jacobs Field, where Gricar’s favorite team, the Cleveland Indians, plays.

“Personally, that is what I thought had happened,” Sloane said. “Just a hunch, but I was apparently wrong.”

http://projectjason.org/forums/topic/2128-missing-man-ray-frank-gricar-pa-04152005/

Sloane said Gricar was looking forward to retirement. It would mean more time to see his daughter and more time to see the leaves change in Vermont and pop into antiques stores to find a treasured addition to his collection of antique cameras.

Gricar was so excited, in fact, that he and Fornicola would often get together at a restaurant on a Friday night, order drinks and count down the days to retirement.

"They would toast how close it was getting," Sloane said. "He knew how many days were left."

http://www.freedomcrowsnest.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7639

I'm not sure what this would have to do with the issue at hand. RFG did take off for a weekend, or part of one, and Sloane, at first, thought he had done this again.

There is now a serious question if RFG was arranging money as someone would going into retirement.

 

[MissJ]

Just because someone is an EX MC member means nothing. There is still loyalty and ties.

 

[SuperSmith]

I'm not sure what this would have to do with the issue at hand.

What exactly is the issue at hand?

My links were to show readers that there is a difference of opinion of what happened to RG. I didn't even include BB or McKnight. I think we know where they stand.

Additionally I could find no reference as to MM believe that RG walked away.

 

[MissJ]

From what I have heard of RFG, JMO, I don't see him planning his retirement with PF and then walking away with a few dollars he might have managed to hide away when he could have had his retirement and all. A retirement check is a lot of security against future uncertainty. JMO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Just because someone is an EX MC member means nothing. There is still loyalty and ties.

He was also a known informant on the Hells Angels. By 1998, he was not undercover or anything. He, from the HA standpoint, cut those ties.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

What exactly is the issue at hand?

My links were to show readers that there is a difference of opinion of what happened to RG. I didn't even include BB or McKnight. I think we know where they stand.

Additionally I could find no reference as to MM believe that RG walked away.

Well, I think there is a difference of opinion since I don't have a solid one, and I've noted that:

"As for friends, his closest, Steve Sloane, thinks he walked away; so does the person who followed him into office, Michael Madeira. MTM was friendly with RFG. I would submit that these are closer to RFG than JKA. I would also submit that this is not strong evidence that RFG walked away, though MTM handled the case for four years."

The issue at had is what people close to RFG think happened to him. It is evidence that people who were close to him think he could have walked away; it isn't something alien to him.

The reference to MTM is here: http://articles.philly.com/2011-07-31/news/29835864_1_investigators-retirement-plans-ray-gricar

"Even among those closest to Gricar or the investigation there is no consensus. A suicide, says the retired police chief who first presided over the case. Probably a walkaway, says Gricar's immediate successor. Murder, say two district attorneys of nearby counties."

BBM

And, it was from an article which was just cited.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

From what I have heard of RFG, JMO, I don't see him planning his retirement with PF and then walking away with a few dollars he might have managed to hide away when he could have had his retirement and all. A retirement check is a lot of security against future uncertainty. JMO

That is one of the reasons to explore the money aspect. It would be more than a "few dollars."

 

[SuperSmith]

"As for friends, his closest, Steve Sloane, thinks he walked away; so does the person who followed him into office, Michael Madeira. MTM was friendly with RFG. I would submit that these are closer to RFG than JKA. I would also submit that this is not strong evidence that RFG walked away, though MTM handled the case for four years."

I read this the first time and is why I responded to it. Sloane has been all over the place since day one. Even if now he believe RG walked away he is unable to provide a possible reason. I don't think SS & RG were as close as the media has portrayed and I believe that for a couple of reasons.

The first is that Sloane never went to the police to be interviewed. You'd think that if they were so close they he'd be going out of his way to help LE. That has never transpired.

The second is that Sloane missed a significant amount of time from work due to injury or whatever. I believe there relationship became strained because of it and that SS really wasn't in tune with what was going on in the DA office or RG's life. This could explain his wavering between theories.

Those reasons and the fact that his credibility took when he became a convicted felon.

 

[SuperSmith]

Does anyone know what time LE got to PF's residence after she called in the report and after the BOLO was put out on RG?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I read this the first time and is why I responded to it. Sloane has been all over the place since day one. Even if now he believe RG walked away he is unable to provide a possible reason. I don't think SS & RG were as close as the media has portrayed and I believe that for a couple of reasons.

The thought on the case have changed, including from me. It is based on new information.

The first is that Sloane never went to the police to be interviewed. You'd think that if they were so close they he'd be going out of his way to help LE. That has never transpired.

He was interviewed by the PSP profiler.

The second is that Sloane missed a significant amount of time from work due to injury or whatever. I believe there relationship became strained because of it and that SS really wasn't in tune with what was going on in the DA office or RG's life. This could explain his wavering between theories.

While they were not together on a daily basis in 2005, they were still in contact, to the point that RFG visited Sloane and read to him.

Those reasons and the fact that his credibility took when he became a convicted felon.

Well, perhaps then we should have dismissed all the mine shaft stories out of hand, right?

Sloane confessed, not to perjury, but a minor drug charge. Sloane was not charged with perjury, nor accused of it. (I suspect his charges were overcharged and related to Sandusky, but that is beside the point. I suspect he will be a prosecution witness.)

In total fairness, I have been in contact with Sloane over the years, and what he has said has turned out to be accurate; he has been more accurate than anyone else close to RFG. I frankly wish I would have listened to him more and done more follow-up with him (well, that is my stupidity).

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Does anyone know what time LE got to PF's residence after she called in the report and after the BOLO was put out on RG?

No, but the call was made after 11:00 PM. I'm not sure if the did go to take a report, but it would be likely.

 

[SuperSmith]

The thought on the case have changed, including from me. It is based on new information.



He was interviewed by the PSP profiler.



While they were not together on a daily basis in 2005, they were still in contact, to the point that RFG visited Sloane and read to him.



Well, perhaps then we should have dismissed all the mine shaft stories out of hand, right?

Sloane confessed, not to perjury, but a minor drug charge. Sloane was not charged with perjury, nor accused of it. (I suspect his charges were overcharged and related to Sandusky, but that is beside the point. I suspect he will be a prosecution witness.)

In total fairness, I have been in contact with Sloane over the years, and what he has said has turned out to be accurate; he has been more accurate than anyone else close to RFG. I frankly wish I would have listened to him more and done more follow-up with him (well, that is my stupidity).

7 years probation and disbarment is hardly minor in my opinion.

<modsnip>

 

[J. J. in Phila]

7 years probation and disbarment is hardly minor in my opinion.

[modsnip]

First, people do get disbarred for non-criminal acts. You might want to search Don Bailey in the Sandusky forum.

Second, [modsnip], but I do not share the view that no time, probation, and a $100 fine is major. Especially in light of the charges, and especially against a former ADA.

No, actually, I looked at the corroborating evidence and I said that I believed BB's penpal, who is a convicted felon; I just question if the person the penpal was talking to told the truth. Why? Because, because according to him, RFG's body is in a nonexistent mineshaft in a non-existent town. The details of the story didn't match up with the evidence.

A person can be acting in complete good faith and get it wrong. A person can be acting in complete bad faith and get it right. I'm more concerned if the person is getting it right or not.

 

[SuperSmith]

Former Assistant District Attorney Karen Arnold wrote an excellent account after Ray Gricar's disappearance. If you have not read it I highly recommend it as it gives good details of the events that unfolded post disappearance, insight to LE typical procedures, but most importantly the character of Ray Gricar.

https://sites.google.com/site/gricardisappearance/partiii:onlinediscussion

I would like point out a certain section for which Arnold describes the early online discussion of the case. More specifically I'd like to point out the "murder scenario" that she shared from another poster. I will redact the identity of the poster but the rest will be word for word. You will have to go to Arnold's site to see the identity of the poster she speaks of.

[modsnip]

I bring this section to forefront because this scenario speaks of possible corruption in the DA Office (Not Ray) which was repeated recently in the Hell's Angel story. Also the original story by the Altoona Mirror was said that RG was put in a "shaft". A shaft can be easily be a "well shaft" which the posters "murder scenario" included reference to Ray being buried in a "well".

I just found this interesting and thought I'd share with the fellow readers of this forum.

:twocents:

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Here are several:

http://www.centredaily.com/2009/04/24/2396798/murder-ii-a-short-walk-to-death.html

This one looks at the possibility that RFG met someone, possibly a woman.

http://www.centredaily.com/2012/04/10/3157763/a-meeting-for-murder-20.html

This one looks at the possibility of meeting someone, in some sort of official capacity, who ended up killing him. This would include a possible luring.

http://www.centredaily.com/2009/04/21/2396785/murder-i-a-meeting-for-murder.html

This is the original one.

http://www.centredaily.com/2011/02/19/2531729/basements-and-motel-rooms.html

This is one on the clean up.

"That which has been is what will be,
That which is done is what will be done,
And there is nothing new under the sun."

Ecclesiastes 1:9

 

[SuperSmith]

Here are several:

http://www.centredaily.com/2009/04/24/2396798/murder-ii-a-short-walk-to-death.html

This one looks at the possibility that RFG met someone, possibly a woman.

http://www.centredaily.com/2012/04/10/3157763/a-meeting-for-murder-20.html

This one looks at the possibility of meeting someone, in some sort of official capacity, who ended up killing him. This would include a possible luring.

http://www.centredaily.com/2009/04/21/2396785/murder-i-a-meeting-for-murder.html

This is the original one.

http://www.centredaily.com/2011/02/19/2531729/basements-and-motel-rooms.html

This is one on the clean up.

"That which has been is what will be,
That which is done is what will be done,
And there is nothing new under the sun."

Ecclesiastes 1:9

Ahhh yes but these links are much more recent. The posters "murder scenario" KA describes is from 2006 making it this posters original. The interest lies in how it lines up to the current HA story informants accounts.

:worms:

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Ahhh yes but these links are much more recent. The posters "murder scenario" KA describes is from 2006 making it this posters original. The interest lies in how it lines up to the current HA story informants accounts.

:worms:

Actually, the original theory falls apart with new evidence. That is one of the problems with trying to come up with a theory first and then trying to argue against the evidence.

 

[SeekingJana]

Mr. Steve S. was interviewed for 20/20. THEY considered what he had to say to be important and newsworthy.

I think it is wrong to attach a " label" to a private citizen. He was a good friend of Mr. Gricar's for many years, period. Everyone makes mistakes and they pay through the courts, not in the court of WS opinion. JMO about tolerance.