PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #12

[Saunterer]

There were four things that drove up legal fees:

1. That reward.

2. Applying for trusteeship.

3. The declaration of death.

4. Probate.

There will be some costs of administrating the estate, filing taxes for example. $15 k over six years is not exactly huge. There may also be insurance policy premiums.

I am no lawyer (thank God!)...but I fail to see how any legal fees incurred prior to the court's declaration of death in this instance could be counted against RG's estate, unless the family lawyer deferred payment on your items 1 & 2 for six years or so, and on your item 3 for a year or two ......(not). No. In the absense of funeral costs, the administrative cost charged to RG's estate appears to be for post-declaration legal fees. JMOO

 

[Kimster]

There were four things that drove up legal fees:

1. That reward.

2. Applying for trusteeship.

3. The declaration of death.

4. Probate.

There will be some costs of administrating the estate, filing taxes for example. $15 k over six years is not exactly huge. There may also be insurance policy premiums.

I am no lawyer (thank God!)...but I fail to see how any legal fees incurred prior to the court's declaration of death in this instance could be counted against RG's estate. These are obviously the costs of administration, post-declaration. JMOO

JJ, please link your post to verify your findings.

Saunterer, stating something is "obvious" and not linking - with a "JMOO" at the end - isn't going to fly. Either link up or find a verified lawyer to back up your claims.

:tyou:

 

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ, please link your post to verify your findings.

Saunterer, stating something is "obvious" and not linking with a "JMOO" at the end isn't going to fly. Either link up or find a verified lawyer to back up your claims.

:tyou:

That Goodall set up the reward (which was interesting, from a legal standpoint) and that LG went to court to get trusteeship are here: http://www.centrelaw.com/page.php?id=40

Goodall wrote an article on it, noting how unusual it was to set up an award.

Trusteeship is also mentioned here: http://www.centredaily.com/2006/05/13/3802/missed-leads.html The statute requiring petitioning the court to establish one is here: http://law.onecle.com/pennsylvania/decedents-estates-and-fiduciaries/00.057.002.000.html

The declaration of death story is hear: http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archives/article_4efac656-5943-567c-a662-020993392840.html

That the estate was settled is from Trackergd's previous posts.

 

[Saunterer]

JJ, please link your post to verify your findings.

Saunterer, stating something is "obvious" and not linking - with a "JMOO" at the end - isn't going to fly. Either link up or find a verified lawyer to back up your claims.

:tyou:

I await Trackergd's original information, which has apparently only been divulged (in full) to J.J. in Phila. I also await J.J.'s link(s) proving what he has alleged (post-declaration).

Until then, all I can say is it seems obvious that a lawyer would not charge 15K to assist in the administration of a 1K estate...and that that is just MOO.

 

[Kimster]

I await Trackergd's original information, which has apparently only been divulged (in full) to J.J. in Phila. I also await J.J.'s link(s) proving what he has alleged (post-declaration).

Until then, all I can say is it seems obvious that a lawyer would not charge 15K to assist in the administration of a 1K estate...and that that is just MOO.

It seems obvious to you, understood. Doesn't really seem obvious to me. One never knows what a lawyer will charge. I know a case where the defendant was ordered to pay attorney's fees. They took the case to the appeals process because the cost was ridiculous. The judge made them pay it anyway - plus the attorney's fees for the appeals process. Makes me mad just thinking about it!

You never know. That's why having evidence is important.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

While RFG was declared dead in 2011, they might be taking it from the time of the disappearance. Some things listed, like the reward, were elements of declaring RFG dead, i.e., they offered a reward and there were no takers.

I don't find it suspicious that Goodall would have charged for the things cited. He had been an attorney for about 30 years, and this was his first reward of this type.

 

[Saunterer]

It seems obvious to you, understood. Doesn't really seem obvious to me. One never knows what a lawyer will charge. I know a case where the defendant was ordered to pay attorney's fees. They took the case to the appeals process because the cost was ridiculous. The judge made them pay it anyway - plus the attorney's fees for the appeals process. Makes me mad just thinking about it!

You never know. That's why having evidence is important.

With all due respect, I think your analogy has no context in this discussion. But if you believe it does, even without specifically linking to Ray Gricar's case, I respect your opinion.

I am not asking for anything beyond consideration of my own stupid opinion. But I will abstain from future comment on documents that have not been made available to the whole Websleuths community. And I expect others here to do the same.

 

[Saunterer]

While RFG was declared dead in 2011, they might be taking it from the time of the disappearance.

Assumes facts not in evidence and is, therefore, just your opinion...to which you are entitled.

Some things listed, like the reward, were elements of declaring RFG dead, i.e., they offered a reward and there were no takers. I don't find it suspicious that Goodall would have charged for the things cited. He had been an attorney for about 30 years, and this was his first reward of this type.

But it would, in my opinion, be questionable if he had waited years to bill (or to be paid) for his time for most of the services you cited, if he did.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

That is opinions to what would constitute an estate expense; probate costs would, according the form. http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/document/628145/rev-1501_pdf

There is no suggestion that there was any delay in billing, only that a bill was incurred. Nothing indicates the billing was recent.

 

[Saunterer]

I assume no one here likes it when an officer of the criminal justice system suddenly disappears...and especially years later, when that officer is declared dead but his disappearance remains unresolved. I know I do not.

But this thread is not an investigation. This is a public forum discussion...one of many that have come up in regard to Ray Gricar over the years. And while some of us might have demonstrable areas of expertise, for the most part we just bring to the table our life experiences and common sense...our opinions, our theories and (sometimes) our frustrations.

I know I am a latecomer here. And I know I am not the 'sharpest tool in the shed'. But I am not new to the discussion of Ray Gricar's disappearance. I do not ask anyone to accept anything I post on its face. I am just happy to be able to post what I feel to be true and to question what I feel needs to be questioned.

I apologize if that upsets some in this community. But if I should falter in my quest for the truth here, it would be in spite of an honest search for the truth...and not because of some feigned notion that I know the truth.

 

[Saunterer]

That is opinions to what would constitute an estate expense; probate costs would, according the form. http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/document/628145/rev-1501_pdf

There is no suggestion that there was any delay in billing, only that a bill was incurred. Nothing indicates the billing was recent.

It seems to me there can be no expense charged against the estate of a decedent until there is a decedent. And in my experience no lawyer waits 6 years to bill (or to be paid) for services rendered. But that is just my opinion.

 

[Saunterer]

Surveillance cameras are here to stay, as they were when Ray Gricar disappeared. So when and where was the last reported video surveillance confirming his presence? In back of the courthouse in Bellefonte on April 14, 2005. No publicly confirmed sightings of Ray Gricar or his car on Route 192, or Route 45, or Interstate 80, or in the Lewisburg area, or anywhere else on April 15 or 16 (or after).

In fact, LE has never confirmed that Ray Gricar was ever in Lewisburg, on April 15 or 16...no surveillance video, no credit card receipts, no hotel/motel registrations, no transporter evidence...no nothing, except for eyewitness testimony by a few people who did not know him but who wanted to be helpful.

LE has never publicly confirmed that Ray Gricar was ever in Lewisburg on April 15, 16. LE has always wanted the public to believe that to be the case. But is that the truth...or just a 'working theory' LE preferred that the public accept?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It seems to me there can be no expense charged against the estate of a decedent until there is a decedent. And in my experience no lawyer waits 6 years to bill (or to be paid) for services rendered. But that is just my opinion.

The statutes speak to the administration of assets. The full statutes for PA are here: http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI/LI/CT/pdf/20/20.pdf

While the estate tax cannot be levied until there is a decedent, I am not seeing anything that deductions from the tax could not occur prior to a declaration of death.

Again there is no question of anyone that "waits 6 years to bill (or to be paid) for services rendered." The cost is incurred, a bill sent, that bill paid, and when, in probate, the payment is credited against the gross amount of the estate for tax purposes. (That is basically how deductions work.)

 

[Saunterer]

The only "oval" marked is "Original Return."

(They are called "ovals" but the they are boxes.)

The date was 12/26/12 (that is not a typo).

How many safe deposit boxes were indicated on the form Trackergd emailed to you?

 

[Saunterer]

The statutes speak to the administration of assets. The full statutes for PA are here: http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI/LI/CT/pdf/20/20.pdf

While the estate tax cannot be levied until there is a decedent, I am not seeing anything that deductions from the tax could not occur prior to a declaration of death.

Again there is no question of anyone that "waits 6 years to bill (or to be paid) for services rendered." The cost is incurred, a bill sent, that bill paid, and when, in probate, the payment is credited against the gross amount of the estate for tax purposes. (That is basically how deductions work.)

Are you insinuating that a bill submitted and paid by someone during his life can be subtracted after his death?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I think it time to this old chestnut to rest.

"We have three or four good witnesses from down there who are definitely I.D.-ing him in the park. They saw him sitting in his car, they watched him driving his Mini Cooper back and forth on Friday."

"We can definitely put him there on Saturday too. There's a museum right here, across from the park. I think it's called Cottingwood House. The employees watched Ray bring his car and park it two or three different times across the street. He came and left, came and left, came back. He got out of his car, sat on a bench."

This is a quote from then lead detective Darrel Zaccagni, quoted by James Renner in an article by James Renner in a Cleveland newspaper. It is pasted here: http://z10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/index.php?showtopic=2226

As for no one who knew him, there was at least one witness that knew RFG, a courthouse worker, that saw RFG that day. RFG was turning on 192 in Centre Hall. This was on the episode of Disappeared.

The area between Lewisburg and Centre Hall is rural, and bereft of video cameras. The SoS has none.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

How many safe deposit boxes were indicated on the form Trackergd emailed to you?

None. Of all the "ovals" on the form, only the first one, "Original Return," is marked.

That was a good question, however.

I would note that there would be no place to capture life insurance payments, as those are not subject to PA inheritance tax. Nor would his pension.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I am stating that a cost might be credited toward estate taxes if that has to do with a legitimate cost of administrating an estate. I see nothing in the cited legal actions of LG had taken that would be improper.

I would note that thinks like prepaid funeral expenses are deducted from the value of the estate: https://revenue-pa.custhelp.com/app...sion/L3RpbWUvMTM4NTUyNTM0Mi9zaWQvKmVBb05tR2w=

 

[Saunterer]

How many safe deposit boxes were indicated on the form Trackergd emailed to you?

Why is this important? Because if the line was left blank on the county form, as opposed to an answer (i.e. "0" or "none" or some number), then the filing with Centre County would presumably be different than the filing with the state, since the state return required an answer. If that line item has no response on the county filing, it puts the whole county filing into question. But that is just my stupid opinion. Go figure.

 

[SeekingJana]

Here at the holidays, thinking about Ray Gricar's life work, his friends, the victims for whom he advocated and secured justice, his relatives and loved ones, I certainly wish it had not been him who disappeared.