PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #12

[Blondie in Spokane]

JJ....thanks for always keeping this thread moving/updated!

 

[Trackergd]

Thanks Trackergd! But I will refrain from commenting on it with specificity unless and untill it is made fully available (in total) to the greater Websleuths community.

I am not sure how to correctly redact the information. If you or J.J. wish to post redacted versions, feel free.

 

[Trackergd]

I would not say the searches point specifically to walkaway. A good place to toss a drive/laptop, if you don't want the contents known, is a river 50 miles from home. We know he wanted to destroy whatever was on the computer for about a year prior to his disappearance.

No perp could have known that whatever was on that drive was exclusively on that drive. RFG could have copied to another source or printed it out. Destroying that laptop would not get rid of any copied data.

Parts of the suicide theory don't seem to fit. Specifically how did the mini get to the spot it was found if RG had walked away to commit suicide? Who would have been willing to relocate the car, wipe it clean and not talk about it to anyone...ever?

Was the a significant area of the river upstream from where the computer was found searched? Curious if the computer and drive had washed down to that point and RG's remains might be further upriver. If RG was not a gun person, that reduces the methods available.

I keep thinking there is a critical component that is missing that if known would make all the pieces fit into the big picture.

 

[Trackergd]

Going back to the money for a moment... I just sat down with our rather bright company attorney. The fact that the 1500 form (State Copy with all the information) was judged to be private sends all kinds of red flags up for him. He is aware of the case and many of the components. He "thinks" we could request a complete copy from the court under the FOIA. Filing a request with the court that the information is private either points to someone who is VERY private and not consistent with the reported small amount of the estate or something is fishy.

If we could get a full copy of the 1500, it would lay to rest any speculation of the money trail. Anyone up to this task? While some may think this is a bit insensitive to dig into, I am of the "leave no stone un-turned" school when it comes to digging into a case. As Detective Joe Kenda says "I'm not smarter than anyone else, I'm just more stubborn".

I personally suspect that while nothing illegal is going on, the court and individuals who initially reviewed the case and the finances may have been more than a little generous in protecting the financial information for reasons yet unknown.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Parts of the suicide theory don't seem to fit. Specifically how did the mini get to the spot it was found if RG had walked away to commit suicide? Who would have been willing to relocate the car, wipe it clean and not talk about it to anyone...ever?

Was the a significant area of the river upstream from where the computer was found searched? Curious if the computer and drive had washed down to that point and RG's remains might be further upriver. If RG was not a gun person, that reduces the methods available.

I keep thinking there is a critical component that is missing that if known would make all the pieces fit into the big picture.

What I was looking at was literally walking to the spot where RFG would hypothetically commit suicide. He drove to Lewisburg and literally walked into the woods or jumped into the river. He wouldn't need any help.

I think that there were some searches north of the bridge, but not as much as there were south of the bridge. A few posters looked at the possibility of the laptop floating, and it was not buoyant. The drive would sink like a stone and it was just north of the bridge.

I think it is unlikely that RFG walked out of Lewisburg on foot and then killed himself, but not impossible.

 

[Trackergd]

What I was looking at was literally walking to the spot where RFG would hypothetically commit suicide. He drove to Lewisburg and literally walked into the woods or jumped into the river. He wouldn't need any help.

I think that there were some searches north of the bridge, but not as much as there were south of the bridge. A few posters looked at the possibility of the laptop floating, and it was not buoyant. The drive would sink like a stone and it was just north of the bridge.

I think it is unlikely that RFG walked out of Lewisburg on foot and then killed himself, but not impossible.

I can't remember if there were no prints in the mini or just RG's prints. If it was wiped clean, something is fishy as why would RG wipe his prints from a car that could be easily traced by the plate and VIN?

While the laptop and the drive might not float, a good rain storm could cause them to be washed quite a distance down river over a period of time. If they were found a distance apart, that would fit even more as the weight difference would cause them to react differently to fast moving water.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped

Going back to the money for a moment... I just sat down with our rather bright company attorney. The fact that the 1500 form (State Copy with all the information) was judged to be private sends all kinds of red flags up for him. He is aware of the case and many of the components. He "thinks" we could request a complete copy from the court under the FOIA. Filing a request with the court that the information is private either points to someone who is VERY private and not consistent with the reported small amount of the estate or something is fishy.

LG could not have used the process unless the estate was worth less than $25 k. It is worth a shot. State or county request?

LG and Goodall have to be aware, at this point, that there are a lot of public questions regarding this.

If we could get a full copy of the 1500, it would lay to rest any speculation of the money trail. Anyone up to this task? While some may think this is a bit insensitive to dig into, I am of the "leave no stone un-turned" school when it comes to digging into a case. As Detective Joe Kenda says "I'm not smarter than anyone else, I'm just more stubborn".

It may just add to the speculation. I guy making $100 k plus for four years, and leaving less than $25 k, only raises the questions about the lack of assets.

At this point, I'm willing to say that there are unaccounted for assets.

 

[SeekingJana]

Snipped



LG could not have used the process unless the estate was worth less than $25 k. It is worth a shot. State or county request?

LG and Goodall have to be aware, at this point, that there are a lot of public questions regarding this.



It may just add to the speculation. I guy making $100 k plus for four years, and leaving less than $25 k, only raises the questions about the lack of assets.

At this point, I'm willing to say that there are unaccounted for assets.

I agree with all of the above. The known assets are way too low.

I'm not convinced the seeming financial anomalies eliminate foul play though. I thought so for a long time, but the recent finds of remains belonging to people believed gone missing on their own has caused me to look at this possibility concerned Mr. Gricar. ( regardless of the time between missing and skeletal remains found).

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I can't remember if there were no prints in the mini or just RG's prints. If it was wiped clean, something is fishy as why would RG wipe his prints from a car that could be easily traced by the plate and VIN?

While the laptop and the drive might not float, a good rain storm could cause them to be washed quite a distance down river over a period of time. If they were found a distance apart, that would fit even more as the weight difference would cause them to react differently to fast moving water.

The car was not wiped, but the only readable print was on the outside window on the drivers side. LE concluded that it was not wiped, but that partials could not be read.

That drive was at the junction of a small stream. It would be difficult for it to washed from upstream in the Susquehanna. Here are some photos: https://picasaweb.google.com/LookingforRay/Lewisburg73009

That drive did not move too far; it is denser that some of the stones. The laptop was found on July 30 2005; that would not give it too much time to work its way down, 75 days maximum. I'll check the weather over that time.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I agree with all of the above. The known assets are way too low.

I'm not convinced the seeming financial anomalies eliminate foul play though. I thought so for a long time, but the recent finds of remains belonging to people believed gone missing on their own has caused me to look at this possibility concerned Mr. Gricar. ( regardless of the time between missing and skeletal remains found).

It absolutely does NOT rule out foul play!

RFG could have lost substantial assets or hidden money in foreign account, and still have been murdered.

If, however, there are hidden assets, that were accessed by RFG after 4/16/05, the case is solved.

 

[Trackergd]

The car was not wiped, but the only readable print was on the outside window on the drivers side. LE concluded that it was not wiped, but that partials could not be read.

Odd. You would think RG's prints would be all over it.

That drive was at the junction of a small stream. It would be difficult for it to washed from upstream in the Susquehanna. Here are some photos: https://picasaweb.google.com/LookingforRay/Lewisburg73009

Thanks for the photographs. Seems a bit public for a suicide....

That drive did not move too far; it is denser that some of the stones. The laptop was found on July 30 2005; that would not give it too much time to work its way down, 75 days maximum. I'll check the weather over that time.

Interested to know what you find with the weather.


I would almost like to drive over next spring and walk that area and see if anything jumps out at me. Also wondering if that little island was well searched. Also wonder if any "John Doe" floaters were found well down stream and never connected to the case. I ran the entire river in a canoe back in the 60's so my memory of the area is a bit foggy.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipping again.

Odd. You would think RG's prints would be all over it.

There were partials, but not enough ridges to make a positive ID.

Thanks for the photographs. Seems a bit public for a suicide....



Interested to know what you find with the weather.

Going into the river there, yes it was public. There is a wetland area within two miles and woods within walking distance.

Only in mid July did the area have more than an inch of rain (1.22) for the week. It was dry with about 5.13 inches overall from 4/15 to 7/30/05.

http://www.wunderground.com/history...005&req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

The river was high on 4/15-4/17.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

As far as I know, all bodies fished out of the Susquehanna since 4/15/05, and there have been a few, was either identified or were ruled out as being RFG.

 

[Trackergd]

Never hurts to tug on all the strings and turn over all the stones. :seeya:

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Never hurts to tug on all the strings and turn over all the stones. :seeya:

I'm pulling on some cables now, but give me some idea of what to do, and I'll add a few strings to the mix.

 

[SeekingJana]

Mostly, I've read the same thing with minor variations for over 7 years. Here and elsewhere. I don't personally believe Mr. Gricar is alive, but am willing to consider the possibility since several very intelligent people here seem to think it's a strong theory.

Two things cannot or have not been explained by anyone, to the best of my knowledge- Where Mr. Gricar spent the night on April 15th and how he got out of Lewisburg.

I know it's not as rad as a UFO abduction with landing somewhere and depositing him in Eastern Europe, but I think he was in a motor home. A friend of mine builds motor coaches and they are favorites among sports fans.

I also have a theory about who the motor coach belonged to, and it solves the laptop question as well. This is speculation, again, because I'm tired of reading the same old things, and because someone has to toss new ideas out. All I ask is the courtesy of members remembering historical facts relating to PA, and also that this is SPECULATION. I respect Mr. Gricar, OK?

It is my theory that sometime during 2005, either Sandusky or Mr. Gricar initiated conversation related to Victim 6 and the file on him, now missing. ( I concede that it may have been destroyed when the investigation was closed but this seems a little " off" knowing how Mr. Gricar was said to keep "everything".)
Maybe Mr. Gricar told Mr. Sandusky he was hearing new rumors and was upset. Maybe he hadn't heard anything and didn't say this. Maybe Mr. Sandusky was afraid Victim 6's mother's initial complaint to Mr. Gricar was going to be his downfall... First domino in the chain, IOW.

We don't know how Mr. Gricar and Mr. Sandusky felt about one another at all. MAYBE Mr. Gricar felt sorry for Mr Sandusky at this time, believing he had been maligned for money's sake. It does happen, but rarely do children lie. Most of Victim 6's initial case had to do with his MOTHER'S statements, as his were not great but were not indicative of child molestation. In fact, he stated he was not molested. Victim 6 kept on seeing Mr. Sandusky for bowl trips and so forth, activities at TSM for years. This does not mean he was not a victim, just that he benefitted monetarily from Sandusky.

None of the Sandusky scandal was a blip on the radar in 2005 as far as I know. He was, as far as I can tell from reading, respected for children's charity work. He was not seen as a low life, he was respected in 2005 by most people.
Possibly Mr. Gricar, we do not know and I would not attempt to just " guess".

Here's where it comes together. Mr. Sandusky knows there was an investigation into Victim 6 because more than likely, he was questioned, and then there is the matter of Victim 6 remaining very close to Mr. Sandusky and probably telling him of it himself.

So, Mr. Gricar may have files on his laptop which are related to his own thoughts, a meeting or two, or other info regarding Jerry Sandusky. He may have taken notes via the laptop Office/ Word program or similar computer program in Mr. Sandusky's presence in 2004-2005 at PSU or elsewhere ( the timeframe when Mr. Gricar owned the laptop). We don't know.

What if Sandusky was worried enough about the 1998 report on Victim 6 that he befriended Mr. Gricar? It's possible, whether Mr. Gricar had a file folder on him, computer documents, or not. " Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer" kind of thing. NEITHER was physically harmful to the other. Sandusky was not a murderer. He is a pedophile. It's horrible, and I hate the man, but I am just making the distinction here as far as what happened years later. No adults are missing. Children have been hurt. OK?

It is possible that Mr. Gricar and Mr. Sandusky cut a private mutually beneficial, very private deal in which all files related to Mr. Sandusky would be shown to Mr. Sandusky and then destroyed in his presence. The case Mr. Gricar investigated was CLOSED. Mr. Gricar, knowing that he dropped the ball on Victim 6, or maybe having another reason to want to leave Bellefonte and Centre County at the same time, makes a sweetheart deal for both of them. Mr. Gricar will set up a trip out of town to Lewisburg, presumably, and Sandusky will meet him in his motor coach. They will and do view a computer file or two on Sandusky ( or Mr. Gricar shows him that there are none) and the computer is tossed into the river with hard drive removed for good measure. Just in case, Sandusky says.
IF there was still a paper file on Victim 6, it is shredded or burned in front of Sandusky.

Then, Sandusky fulfills his part of the deal. He provides Mr. Gricar a private place to sleep on April 15th, in Sandusky's motor home, and on April 16th, the motor home is driven wherever Mr. Gricar has designated. He doesn't have to get out of the motor home for any reason, as they are equipped with bathrooms, a kitchen, and bedrooms. He would NOT be seen at a restaurant, truck stop, other gas station. He would not be seen on CCTV.

This is just a theory based upon the very different but still valid needs of two men at a time when neither one had any reason to think the other would be headline news. NO crimes had been reported against Sandusky which were chargeable in 2005.

Each was trustworthy because the telling of one set of secrets/ worries/ fears would lead to the telling of the other's.

Disclaimer: NO disrespect is intended in putting forth this theory. I detest Sandusky, and I know Mr. Gricar would/ does too, if he is alive, which I doubt.
Please do not shoot me for postulating something which involves a man who is now a criminal. ( He was then too, but it was not known. He was definitely protected, most of it by his own money).

Also, it is possible to take Sandusky's name and motive out of this and substitute any name of someone known well enough to Mr. Gricar that they would not tell the truth to possibly claim a reward. If such a person exists, then my working theory at present is that he was sheltered in a motor home until he reached his U.S.A. " stepping off point".

Thank you for reading, and I apologize for the length. Again, I believe Mr. Gricar is dead through no fault of his own, and this is an alternative theory.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

He'd eventually have to dump the septic tank and get gas.

How easy would be for someone to rent an RV? Not RFG, but someone else.

 

[SeekingJana]

He'd eventually have to dump the septic tank and get gas.

How easy would be for someone to rent an RV? Not RFG, but someone else.

Only the actions of Mr. Gricar are important, in my theory, at least. JS would have to make a lot of stops for gas, yes. Emptying black water- knowing him, anywhere out of the spotlight. He doesn't seem to be a very discriminating man about his own conduct, yet he looks very ordinary. JS is a " blend in with the crowd" guy until he starts talking. RME.

It is quite easy to rent RVs in the spring and summer. Usually, most rentals I have seen are smaller than a motor home/ motor coach but still have all of the facilities. The advantage is that they would be easier to drive off major highways if needed. It is also possible, IMO, that one of the PSU coaches, or a legacy alumnus may have lent an RV to Sandusky on occasion. One of those " Dottie and I are going camping for the weekend with our family" kinds of things. On off season for football, it's not likely they would have connected the borrowing of their RV for a short time with Mr. Gricar's disappearance. Lots of friends loan or rent theirs out a lot here. Big RVs out here.

I could be wrong, but the die-hard football fans I know and have known down through the years have had them and love them. They are also known to be generous with them on non- game weekends.

Good questions.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It could explain where he spent the night, but neither why he spent the night nor, importantly, what he did after that.

 

[SeekingJana]

It could explain where he spent the night, but neither why he spent the night nor, importantly, what he did after that.

I hope it's OK if I take parts of your walkaway theory and apply them here,

You believe he was likely in Lewisburg on the 15th in his car, in the SOS, and was seen with a woman. What purpose did the woman serve? Was she a secret lover? An old friend, a new friend? Was he advising her on antique toy purchases? Or did she provide something he would need to leave the country? A fake USA ID, a fake USA passport, the two things would be necessary to get out of the USA by plane and go to Slovenia, I'd think. I'd also not think he would be manufacturing his own faked documents.

The why- because either the woman showed up late, or Sandusky or another person in a motor home or other type of RV showed up late. I think the entire thing on the 14th at Lake Raystown is connected to the transportation. Lewisburg may well have been " Plan B".
They COULD have started their journey out of PA that night, but why not just park it and sleep and be rested? He most likely had a stressful day, what with throwing a laptop and HD in the river, and walking around the SOS with a pretty unknown woman, and especially " hiding in plain sight".
Another thing- when would YOU throw a laptop and a HD in a river? During the daytime hours, or late at night? I'd think all of us would choose cover of darkness if we had a choice, and my theory gives him time and a hiding place for it to take place at night.
Also, if Sandusky was involved, maybe he went over the laptop with a fine- tooth comb before he allowed the dumping, or used another form of erasure, like overwriting the HD manually, or placing a large strong magnet on it. This would take time. Maybe hours.

You always said " I'll believe in walkaway if I can figure out how he left Lewisburg". Paraphrasing, but that one thing has been your sticking point. Not where he went afterwards or how he got there, but how he left Lewisburg. Remember?

As for what he did, I believe the Southfield sighting was accurate. I believe he had already obtained dual citizenship on a prior vacation to Slovenia. Reference O'Kicki case you posted.

He was said to be a prompt person, but others he had to depend upon for a short period of time may not have been. Perhaps there was a mechanical thing to correct before the RV was reliable for a long distance drive.

Oh, and I just found a video of Sandusky where he's smoking. Very briefly, then he puts it out. Just saying.