PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #12

[Saunterer]

Although I certainly hope this is a voluntary walk-away, one thing has always nagged at me: If he was planning on walking away - WHY would he tell people he was heading to Lewsiburg that day? One would think he would tell them one thing then head in the opposite direction if he was planning on disappearing. He would only want them to THINK he went to Lewisburg - right?

I read here often looking for thoughts and information, so thank you all for keeping this conversation alive.

According to early news accounts, Gricar supposedly said (in the call to PF) that he was "on 192"...meaning state route 192, which begins at Centre Hall (a few miles southeast of Bellefonte) and ends at Lewisburg...and that he did not indicate where he was headed, when he would be back, or any plans for the evening or weekend. Also that the call was believed to have originated from the vicinity of Rebersburg, which is on route 192 about 14 miles east of Centre Hall. The (logical) assumption made by police is that Gricar was travelling east on route 192 at the time, which would be toward Lewisburg. However, it was often misrepresented in the news media that Gricar was headed to Lewisburg. I suspect this is because that was where his car was found abandoned.

 

[Saunterer]

Trackergd. In answer to your questions (post #376): The old railroad bridge and its approach is immediately alongside (on the south side) of the Street of Shops building. Both ends of the bridge are blocked by mounds of earth and rubble. The carton of daffodils was found in front of the mound on the Lewisburg side.

Though perhaps possible, it would have been extremely hazardous to get on that bridge. I have never seen a report that anyone was caught attempting it (not even kids). But from what I know about the supposed locations of the laptop and hard drive finds, it is not (IMO) plausible that either was tossed from the railroad bridge.

The parking lot where Gricar's car was found is just across the street (west of) the Street of Shops building. The small town park lies between the railroad bridge and the traffic bridge (to the south) under which the laptop was found. The hard drive was supposedly found out from the bottom of the river bank at about the middle of the park property.

From the spot where the mini was found: about 20 yards to the Street of Shops, 150 yards to where the hard drive was supposedly found, and 300 yards to where the laptop was supposedly found...all in the same general direction. From the railroad bridge: about 75 yards downstream to the hard drive and about 150 yards downstream to the laptop.

 

[Saunterer]

That's actually not true, assuming the individual I was speaking with was who they say they were.

I should have said that no member of Gricar's family has apparently ever posted on Websleuths, which is why some (myself included) had concentrated on the discussion in other forums. Nice to "see" you again, Hbgchick! :seeya:

 

[J. J. in Phila]

According to early news accounts, Gricar supposedly said (in the call to PF) that he was "on 192"...meaning state route 192, which begins at Centre Hall (a few miles southeast of Bellefonte) and ends at Lewisburg...and that he did not indicate where he was headed, when he would be back, or any plans for the evening or weekend. Also that the call was believed to have originated from the vicinity of Rebersburg, which is on route 192 about 14 miles east of Centre Hall. The (logical) assumption made by police is that Gricar was travelling east on route 192 at the time, which would be toward Lewisburg. However, it was often misrepresented in the news media that Gricar was headed to Lewisburg. I suspect this is because that was where his car was found abandoned.

Rebersburg, as the location of the call, does not match the search pattern. As there is only one tower in the Rebersburg, and the call bounced of "towers," as per Disappeared, it would make it unlikely to be in this area.

East of Rebersburg there is no cell service.

I also belive that RFG indicated that he was heading in the direction of Lewisburg, i.e. easterly, but not that his destination was Lewisburg.

 

[Saunterer]

Assuming that the reported locations of the laptop and hard drive finds were as (most often) reported, in the news and by Tony Gricar, and knowing the conditions which existed a few days after the disappearance (when I was first there, in Lewisburg, during the first diver search of the river), I believe it is highly improbable that either piece of equipment was in the river on April 15/16, 2005.

 

[Saunterer]

Rebersburg, as the location of the call, does not match the search pattern. As there is only one tower in the Rebersburg, and the call bounced of "towers," as per Disappeared, it would make it unlikely to be in this area.

East of Rebersburg there is no cell service.

I can only tell you what was reported early on. Rebersburg is on route 192 in Brush Valley, before you get into the mountains where cell service was spotty or nonexistent (my own observation). And BTW, route 192 does not extend west of Centre Hall...so unless RG was lying to PF, the call did not originate west of that borough.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Assuming that the reported locations of the laptop and hard drive finds were as (most often) reported, in the news and by Tony Gricar, and knowing the conditions which existed a few days after the disappearance (when I was first there, in Lewisburg, during the first diver search of the river), I believe it is highly improbable that either piece of equipment was in the river on April 15/16, 2005.

We actually looked at this some years ago: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156709&highlight=bridge&page=6

The water was two feet higher at the time than in the linked photo. The drive could have easily been missed, especially since the SAR teams were not specifically looking for it at the time.

The laptop had been in the water for quite some time, when found, considering the damage, though it is impossible to say how long.

I strongly suspect that it was in the water since April, 2005.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I can only tell you what was reported early on. Rebersburg is on route 192 in Brush Valley, before you get into the mountains where cell service was spotty or nonexistent (my own observation). And BTW, route 192 does not extend west of Centre Hall...so unless RG was lying to PF, the call did not originate west of that borough.

The police only said that the call originated in Brush Valley, which extends northeast and southwest of Centre Hall.

I'm not sure if RFG ever said he was actually on Route 192, only that this was his route. If he said, **I'm going down Route 192 to Lewisburg,** That could mean that is is currently on 192 heading in the direction of Lewisburg. **I'm on 192 heading toward Lewisburg.** It could also mean that his intent was to drive toward Lewisburg on Route 192. **I'm going to take Route 192 toward Lewisburg.**

 

[J. J. in Phila]

You may want to look at this regarding the search pattern: http://www.centredaily.com/2011/04/28/2676956/triangulation.html

It points to the call being made well west of Rebersburg.

 

[Saunterer]

Virtually everything we (the public) "know" about Ray Gricar's whereabouts after being captured by surveillance video behind the courthouse on April 14, 2005 is totally dependent on the account of one person, PF. Here is what police have said about that. We cannot confirm Gricar's whereabouts on April 15 or after. We cannot confirm that it was Gricar who made the call that morning. PF passed a polygraph test (supposedly "with flying colors", although the results were being reviewed...and the public never heard anything after that). We have no reason to believe she was lying, but that does not mean she could not be considered a suspect on the basis of new information. We have "a short list of suspects who may have had motive to kill Gricar, most of whom are people Gricar prosecuted during his 25-year tenure at the district attorney's office." (Darrel Zaccagni, CDT, June 10, 2005).

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Virtually everything we (the public) "know" about Ray Gricar's whereabouts after being captured by surveillance video behind the courthouse on April 14, 2005 is totally dependent on the account of one person, PF. Here is what police have said about that. We cannot confirm Gricar's whereabouts on April 15 or after. We cannot confirm that it was Gricar who made the call that morning. PF passed a polygraph test (supposedly "with flying colors", although the results were being reviewed...and the public never heard anything after that). We have no reason to believe she was lying, but that does not mean she could not be considered a suspect on the basis of new information.

The police have noted that there was a witness, a court employee that saw RFG turning onto Route 192 on 4/15/05.

I know of no statement from the police that have said they cannot confirm his whereabouts after 4/14/05. It has been posted that DZ did confirm he was in Lewisburg on 4/15.

We have "a short list of suspects who may have had motive to kill Gricar, most of whom are people Gricar prosecuted during his 25-year tenure at the district attorney's office." (Darrel Zaccagni, CDT, June 10, 2005).

And, those were checked out.

 

[Saunterer]

You may want to look at this regarding the search pattern: http://www.centredaily.com/2011/04/28/2676956/triangulation.html

It points to the call being made well west of Rebersburg.

Your blog is just a continuation of your lay-person speculation and opinion, to which you are entitled. If you believe the call from Gricar's phone was made well west of Rebersburg, it conflicts with at least one of the supposed sightings of Gricar/Gricar's car in Lewisburg...which you also cling to as fact. If you believe the call originated west of Centre Hall, then you also believe Gricar lied to his girlfriend...since route 192 does not exist west of that town.

 

[Saunterer]

We actually looked at this some years ago: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156709&highlight=bridge&page=6

The water was two feet higher at the time than in the linked photo. The drive could have easily been missed, especially since the SAR teams were not specifically looking for it at the time.

The laptop had been in the water for quite some time, when found, considering the damage, though it is impossible to say how long.

I strongly suspect that it was in the water since April, 2005.

I was there several days in April 2005, and again in May, and June, and July. You went there, what, years later? I was not looking for a body. I was looking for any evidence. I trudged through the precise area where the hard drive was supposedly found months later. I know exactly what the conditions were. And, BTW, the Centre County Sheriff's Office SAR team was looking for any evidence...not just a body...and was well aware that Gricar's laptop was missing. That is why they specifically noted finding a computer part.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Your blog is just a continuation of your lay-person speculation and opinion, to which you are entitled. If you believe the call from Gricar's phone was made well west of Rebersburg, it conflicts with at least one of the supposed sightings of Gricar/Gricar's car in Lewisburg...which you also cling to as fact. If you believe the call originated west of Centre Hall, then you also believe Gricar lied to his girlfriend...since route 192 does not exist west of that town.

No, I just site the search pattern and where there were cell towers.

Now, if RFG was on 192 heading toward Lewisburg, which is east of Rebersburg, why search the area west of Rebersburg? How can a cell phone bounce off of "towers" plural, when there is only one tower in range?


Actually, it doesn't conflict with any of the sighting that are listed.

Yes, there are some like the quarry sightings that can be ruled out, but they were never on the list of sightings.

Which sighting is claimed that it rules out?

First, it is possible that RFG lied to PEF. Second, as noted, he could been expressing an intent. He was going toward Lewisburg on 192, in the near future.

 

[Saunterer]

The police only said that the call originated in Brush Valley, which extends northeast and southwest of Centre Hall.

I'm not sure if RFG ever said he was actually on Route 192, only that this was his route. If he said, **I'm going down Route 192 to Lewisburg,** That could mean that is is currently on 192 heading in the direction of Lewisburg. **I'm on 192 heading toward Lewisburg.** It could also mean that his intent was to drive toward Lewisburg on Route 192. **I'm going to take Route 192 toward Lewisburg.**

According to Tony Gricar, all he supposedly said in the call (as reported by PF) was that he was "on 192". He supposedly never mentioned Lewisburg. Route 192 does not extend west of Centre Hall.

 

[Saunterer]

Respectfully snipped:

The police have noted that there was a witness, a court employee that saw RFG turning onto Route 192 on 4/15/05.

Link, as to "police have noted"?

I know of no statement from the police that have said they cannot confirm his whereabouts after 4/14/05. It has been posted that DZ did confirm he was in Lewisburg on 4/15.

The police, including DZ, have never once confirmed Gricar's whereabouts on or after 4/15/05. What was published in the news media was based entirely on assumption. MOO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I was there several days in April 2005, and again in May, and June, and July. You went there, what, years later? I was not looking for a body. I was looking for any evidence. I trudged through the precise area where the hard drive was supposedly found months later. I know exactly what the conditions were. And, BTW, the Centre County Sheriff's Office SAR team was looking for any evidence...not just a body...and was well aware that Gricar's laptop was missing. That is why they specifically noted finding a computer part.

Yet the drive, in particular, was a small item, under several feet of water in an area with debris. They were not aware that the drive had been separated until the laptop was found. It is hugely possible that it was missed.

Searchers are not fish, especially lay searchers.

It is also possible that they missed the laptop.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped:
Link, as to "police have noted"?

Disappeared, as cited before.

The police, including DZ, have never once confirmed Gricar's whereabouts on or after 4/15/05. What was published in the news media was based entirely on assumption. MOO

Zaccagni anticipates his visitor's response. This makes no sense."

"It makes a lot of sense," he replies with a smile before returning to the chronology.

"Friday night, people remember the car sitting in the parking lot. It's a very distinct car. Two people in the antique mall are positive they seen him in there. One man is positive he saw Gricar talking to a female on several occasions., I asked him "Were they together?" he said "Well, in my mind they were together, but they weren't holding hands, they weren't lovey-dovey or anything."

"We have three or four good witnesses from down there who are definitely I.D.-ing him in the park. They saw him sitting in his car, they watched him driving his Mini Cooper back and forth on Friday."

"We can definitely put him there on Saturday too.

http://z10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/index.php?showtopic=2226

Originally from the article by James Renner, in the The Cleveland Times, in November 2005. It is reprinted at this site.

Now, I firmly believe that people are entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts. Zaccagni clearly said that he was there.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

According to Tony Gricar, all he supposedly said in the call (as reported by PF) was that he was "on 192". He supposedly never mentioned Lewisburg. Route 192 does not extend west of Centre Hall.

According to the FBI Flyer:

For almost twenty years, Ray Frank Gricar has served as the District Attorney for Center County, Pennsylvania. On the morning of April 15, 2005, he called his girlfriend and told her that he was going to go for a drive in his red and white Mini Cooper automobile along state Route 192 in Penns Valley, Pennsylvania.

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/kidnap/ray-frank-gricar/

BBM

Now, here is PEF's quote:

"I'm on 192. I'm not going to make it home to take care of the dog. Would you be able to go home?"

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2005/05/16/search-for-ray-gricar-continues/

You will note that LE never released the cell location, nor the time of the Centre Hall sighting. Maybe RFG did lie to PEF, or she heard him wrong or misremembered. If it is the first, why?

 

[Saunterer]

Yet the drive, in particular, was a small item, under several feet of water in an area with debris. They were not aware that the drive had been separated until the laptop was found. It is hugely possible that it was missed.

Searchers are not fish, especially lay searchers.

It is also possible that they missed the laptop.

It is probable that the first diver search was primarily designed to locate a body. But one of the key search areas was around each of the bridge piers (against which, months later, the laptop was supposedly found). Could they have missed the laptop? Sure.

It is, IMO, impossible that the CCSOSAR and other officials were searching solely for a body. They were searching the river banks, islands and other areas for any other evidence and they knew that the laptop and several other personal affects were missing.

BTW, the area where the hard drive was supposedly found was never under several feet of water...on April 15 or at anytime thereafter in 2005. I also personally scoured that area several times for any evidence, not at first knowing about the laptop but just looking at everything, for anything.