PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #12

[Saunterer]

Yet the drive, in particular, was a small item, under several feet of water in an area with debris. They were not aware that the drive had been separated until the laptop was found. It is hugely possible that it was missed.

Searchers are not fish, especially lay searchers.

It is also possible that they missed the laptop.

I would not call professional types lay searchers; that is on you. It is probable that the first diver search was primarily designed to locate a body. But one of the key search areas was around each of the bridge piers (against which, months later, the laptop was supposedly found). Could they have missed the laptop? Sure.

It is, IMO, impossible that the CCSOSAR and other officials were searching solely for a body. They were searching the shorelines and other areas for any other evidence and they knew that the laptop and several other personal affects were missing.

BTW, the area where the hard drive was supposedly found was never under several feet of water...on April 15 or at anytime thereafter in 2005. I also personally scoured that area several times for any evidence, not at first knowing about the laptop but just looking at everything, for anything.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I would not call professional types lay searchers; that is on you. It is probable that the first diver search was primarily designed to locate a body. But one of the key search areas was around each of the bridge piers (against which, months later, the laptop was supposedly found). Could they have missed the laptop? Sure.

I wouldn't, and didn't call SAR personnel "lay searchers." I would call anyone without that training, who attempts to locate something underwater a "lay searcher."

It is, IMO, impossible that the CCSOSAR and other officials were searching solely for a body. They were searching the shorelines and other areas for any other evidence and they knew that the laptop and several other personal affects were missing.

It is a question of focus. If someone is looking for a red Mini Cooper, they might miss a blue Mini Cooper. Some of what they used, e.g. the cadaver dog, air searches would be useless in finding the laptop, or drive.

BTW, the area where the hard drive was supposedly found was never under several feet of water...on April 15 or at anytime thereafter in 2005. I also personally scoured that area several times for any evidence, not at first knowing about the laptop but just looking at everything, for anything.

I would suggest that readers look at the link provided. Memories fade; most people don't bring tape measures to Lewisburg. I am, mercifully, not "most people."

 

[Trackergd]

First I would like to thank everyone for the posted links and the discussion that has brought up some interesting opinions and clarified some misconceptions on my part having been somewhat new to this case.

Now knowing the topography and the location of the SOS, bridges and the location of the laptop and drive, coupled with his phone call to PEF, I am about 65% walk away and 35% suicide.

After doing some on line searches, it appears to me that the Sandusky case with it's complexity is one of the few that has the potential to cause RG to have a clandestine meeting with one or more individuals in Lewisburg, and/or would give him the most cause for concern for whatever reason.

The proximity of the laptop, hard drive, SOS, the park and spot where the mini was found, along with RG driving back and forth as seen by witnesses runs up a large red flag that he was in Lewisburg on specific business, and that business involved information stored on his laptop. It is clear to me that his intent was to destroy the laptop and drive and dispose of it where he anticipated it would never be found, and if it were, would not provide any information.

I am of the opinion that the phone call to PEF was deceptive and to the best of our knowledge, he did not tell anyone else where he was going. This tells me there was little to no concern on his part about his safety.

My initial thought was that he went to Lewisburg to meet another witness or victim, but that would not explain the intent to destroy the computer, and this to me is very clear with the questions and research he did on that subject. I am 100% on his intent to destroy the computer and that data it contained. Not being tech savvy, he may assumed some data could be recovered from the computer itself and decided to destroy both the computer and hard drive (thinking the RAM chips might retain some data).

Not being a gun person, we can assume shooting himself was not a high probability. No bodies were found down river, ruling out suicide by drowning, and since he was not an outdoor person, one would assume that he would not have walked too far into the woods to commit suicide which would have put him well within the search area.

This puts us back on what we don't know about the money and who the woman he was talking to was. I could not find a travel agency listing in Lewisburg and did not note any on the list of shops in the SOS. My initial thought was that she was a travel agent and had airline tickets, but now am of the opinion she may have provided another vehicle and needed documents and tickets and possibly money. "Together but not holding hands" indicates to me a business meeting rather than a secret lover.

A convenient airport to use would have been Reading Regional. Small, out of the way, easy to leave a car that could be picked up later, and providing commuter flight links to other major airports....and...in the direction of travel if one is leaving Lewisburg and heading across the bridge out of town and dumping the laptop (per J.J.'s test). I know that airport very well and it would be almost perfect for someone who did not want to be noticed. Most of the time the staff looks like they would rather be asleep in a corner, and there is a small cafe and displays to look at to kill time.

I guess no more far fetched than any other theory. Struggling on the major stressor to put events into motion, I am not 100% it was the Sandusky case, but I cannot find anything else rising to that level.

 

[SeekingJana]

You said " I am about 65% walk away and 35% suicide."

Do you discount ANY possibility of foul play then? If so, could you share your rationale with us?

Your post is excellent. I had never considered the woman to be a travel agent.

Have you ever seen the TV show on Ray "Disappeared"? It shows the river, the bridges, the SOS, the parking lot. etc.
Also, there is a Dateline program about him which has outdoor shots at the same locations but maybe from different angles and distances.

 

[Trackergd]

You said " I am about 65% walk away and 35% suicide."

Do you discount ANY possibility of foul play then? If so, could you share your rationale with us?

Your post is excellent. I had never considered the woman to be a travel agent.

Have you ever seen the TV show on Ray "Disappeared"? It shows the river, the bridges, the SOS, the parking lot. etc.
Also, there is a Dateline program about him which has outdoor shots at the same locations but maybe from different angles and distances.

I could pull 5% away from either the 65 or 35 and list it as foul play. With the information about how to destroy a hard drive, the deception on where he was going that day and what he was doing, foul play seems to grow less and less in my mind as it would have been more a product of a deal gone bad, rather than a targeted ambush, and a struggle in a populated area would have gotten some attention unless it was very quick and quiet.

I cannot ignore the fact that there is a lot of money in the college coffers and that of the alumni association, and for that matter in the pockets of the major players that could have been thrown around. In the end, the actions of Mr. Sandusky could not be covered up by any amount of money, but I have lived long enough and seen enough to know that there is a very high probability that attempts were made to save the good name of the school from the taint of child abuse and crippling sanctions against the sports program.

I think I need to walk the area such as J.J and others have done to see the "lay of the land" for myself. Might even invite J.J., Saunterer and other interested parties to join in so we can brainstorm a bit and so I can pick the brains of those who have already been over the landscape and done some litmus tests. ...As long as the parties attending swear to a truce for the duration of our forensic foray... :scared:

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Very good post. I want to be clear that I do not have foul play that low, however.

Snipped

After doing some on line searches, it appears to me that the Sandusky case with it's complexity is one of the few that has the potential to cause RG to have a clandestine meeting with one or more individuals in Lewisburg, and/or would give him the most cause for concern for whatever reason.

I think there could be numerous non-job related reasons why RFG might walk away or commit suicide. While I will continue to say that RFG's handling of the Sandusky case was the worst mistake of his professional career, I have seen no evidence of him doing anything illegal, nor unethical in regard to it. That does not just refer to the publicly released evidence.

The proximity of the laptop, hard drive, SOS, the park and spot where the mini was found, along with RG driving back and forth as seen by witnesses runs up a large red flag that he was in Lewisburg on specific business, and that business involved information stored on his laptop. It is clear to me that his intent was to destroy the laptop and drive and dispose of it where he anticipated it would never be found, and if it were, would not provide any information.

I think RFG did toss the drive, and probably did toss the laptop. I could understand, however, that he might have wanted to report it destroyed and thought, after tossing the drive, to make sure that it would appear to be destroyed he tossed the laptop, as opposed to tossing it in the trash. The laptop was identifiable.

It is possible that the destruction of the laptop was coincidental to whatever happened.

I am of the opinion that the phone call to PEF was deceptive and to the best of our knowledge, he did not tell anyone else where he was going. This tells me there was little to no concern on his part about his safety.

I'd go two steps further. A., he left no record of where he was going, even in his office. B., he drove into a rural area with no cell coverage, even though a more traveled route, with cell coverage, I-80, was available.

Three general points:

1. RFG did enjoy hiking, though not camping, as far as I know. In that respect, he was an outdoor person.

2. The laptop was on the north side of the bridge. If dropped from a car, it would have been by someone heading west, toward Bellefonte (and away from Reading). There are other airports, Harrisburg, Wilkes Barre, State College, that are closer, with commercial flights.

3. I can come up with at least three general ways RFG's could have gotten out of Lewisburg. I have no evidence to support that he used any of them.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Time, money, weather and back not interfering, I'd be willing to go back there with you, et al.

 

[SeekingJana]

Great points, J.J. and Trackergd.
Hmm, no one's invited me to Lewisburg. I'd love to go with the two of you. I want to see the wetland area ( the edge, not the center, LOL) especially. I know you probably could not go there, J.J., but I could video to you on cell, .

I think a burden of guilt or extreme depression would be noted by someone. If he was still seeing Steve S. and Bob B. regularly, I think they would notice depression or avoidance ( such as would be present with extreme guilt over _______ I don't know what).

I'd also like to get a physical idea of exactly how long a person could expect to shop in the SOS group of vendors. It's always seemed to me like he was " killing time". The sightings at the park, and one at the museum. They may or may not be valid, but if so, points to him waiting...
Do you think he was more than leisurely if sightings are correct?

 

[Trackergd]

Very good post. I want to be clear that I do not have foul play that low, however.

Snipped



I think there could be numerous non-job related reasons why RFG might walk away or commit suicide. While I will continue to say that RFG's handling of the Sandusky case was the worst mistake of his professional career, I have seen no evidence of him doing anything illegal, nor unethical in regard to it. That does not just refer to the publicly released evidence.



I think RFG did toss the drive, and probably did toss the laptop. I could understand, however, that he might have wanted to report it destroyed and thought, after tossing the drive, to make sure that it would appear to be destroyed he tossed the laptop, as opposed to tossing it in the trash. The laptop was identifiable.

It is possible that the destruction of the laptop was coincidental to whatever happened.



I'd go two steps further. A., he left no record of where he was going, even in his office. B., he drove into a rural area with no cell coverage, even though a more traveled route, with cell coverage, I-80, was available.

Three general points:

1. RFG did enjoy hiking, though not camping, as far as I know. In that respect, he was an outdoor person.

2. The laptop was on the north side of the bridge. If dropped from a car, it would have been by someone heading west, toward Bellefonte (and away from Reading). There are other airports, Harrisburg, Wilkes Barre, State College, that are closer, with commercial flights.

3. I can come up with at least three general ways RFG's could have gotten out of Lewisburg. I have no evidence to support that he used any of them.

What bothers me about 2 is that (if I am understanding this correctly) if he had the laptop in Lewisburg and disposed of it after a meeting and removing the hard drive, he would be forced to drive across the bridge, turn around and drive back across to dump the laptop. He would not have come across the bridge to Lewisburg from Bellefonte as Bellefonte is West of Lewisburg.

As to the airport, you could substitute any of the small regional airports with US Air commuter service (twin prop Shorts 360 commuter planes) for Reading. Most are small out of the way airfields. I was thinking Reading as there was a good chance no one would even know who he was, where Harrisburg or State College would present the chance of running into someone he knew.

I have been using Google earth and the street view to "walk" the bridge and the road past the park to Street of Shops. I now see why "Street of Shops" is considered such a joke. The park is nice and a great place to kill time without being noticed.

The proximity of those places and now having viewed them further pushes me towards a clandestine meeting and the purposeful destruction of the laptop and drive.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

What bothers me about 2 is that (if I am understanding this correctly) if he had the laptop in Lewisburg and disposed of it after a meeting and removing the hard drive, he would be forced to drive across the bridge, turn around and drive back across to dump the laptop. He would not have come across the bridge to Lewisburg from Bellefonte as Bellefonte is West of Lewisburg.

Yes, and that aspect has bothered me as well. If RFG wanted to toss the laptop, as per #2, why didn't he just to go out on the walkway and toss it. He could have slipped it under his fleece pullover.

As to the airport, you could substitute any of the small regional airports with US Air commuter service (twin prop Shorts 360 commuter planes) for Reading. Most are small out of the way airfields. I was thinking Reading as there was a good chance no one would even know who he was, where Harrisburg or State College would present the chance of running into someone he knew.

Reading would out of the media markets where the story first broke: http://www.politicspa.com/breaking-...icture-by-tv-market/43926/pa-media-markets-2/

I have been using Google earth and the street view to "walk" the bridge and the road past the park to Street of Shops. I now see why "Street of Shops" is considered such a joke. The park is nice and a great place to kill time without being noticed.

I take exception to that comment. They have good ice cream and a nice used bookstore.

The proximity of those places and now having viewed them further pushes me towards a clandestine meeting and the purposeful destruction of the laptop and drive.

I concur, but those two things might not be related.

 

[Hbgchick]

I should have said that no member of Gricar's family has apparently ever posted on Websleuths, which is why some (myself included) had concentrated on the discussion in other forums. Nice to "see" you again, Hbgchick! :seeya:

Thanks for the welcome back, but I haven't really gone anywhere, I've been listening. I say 'listening' and not 'lurking' because that word makes me feel creepy. Lol. I just have nothing constructive to say - in all of the years we 'die hards' have been discussing it...well, I just don't have anything to offer.

 

[Hbgchick]

The "Street of Shops" is not an actual street - the shops are actually all indoors in one building. I would equate it to a small flea market, and wouldn't imagine a person wanting to spend a very long time there.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The "Street of Shops" is not an actual street - the shops are actually all indoors in one building. I would equate it to a small flea market, and wouldn't imagine a person wanting to spend a very long time there.

For someone who liked "collectables" it might be a nice place. I am like that with books.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped

This puts us back on what we don't know about the money and who the woman he was talking to was. I could not find a travel agency listing in Lewisburg and did not note any on the list of shops in the SOS. My initial thought was that she was a travel agent and had airline tickets, but now am of the opinion she may have provided another vehicle and needed documents and tickets and possibly money. "Together but not holding hands" indicates to me a business meeting rather than a secret lover.

If this was a professional travel agent, as opposed to a "helper" that was personally loyal to RFG, it raise two questions:

1. How did RFG pay for the services?

2. Why didn't the travel agent come forward and claim the reward?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Since this was mentioned in passing, attached is the application for trusteeship by LG that was filed in 2005. Goodall's address is redacted.

It does include, on page two, a reference to insurance bills needing to be paid. Looking at the situation, that would most likely be life insurance premiums.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I was thinking about something last night. Assume that RFG's disappearance was not voluntary, i.e. it was not walkaway or suicide.

We would then have RFG planning to be in Lewisburg, probably at a certain time, not having any notes on the trip, and telling neither his girlfriend, closest friends, or coworkers the purpose of the trip. Further, if case related, he makes an excuse that he's taking the day off, playing "hooky."

 

[MissJ]

I'm listening too. Still think this is likely foul play. But have nothing new to offer. What I can't get away from is if he wanted to leave why not wait til his retirement and take that money and go. I love my family but would not hand over my retirement to them and leave without it unless I had a few million in a bank. Maybe he did have a tidy sum but would it have lasted the rest of his life? I just can't see him wanting a possibly impoverished life style if his health was bad and he had to pay for health care somewhere else. Ok. Rant over. I welcome other's opinions.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm listening too. Still think this is likely foul play. But have nothing new to offer. What I can't get away from is if he wanted to leave why not wait til his retirement and take that money and go. I love my family but would not hand over my retirement to them and leave without it unless I had a few million in a bank. Maybe he did have a tidy sum but would it have lasted the rest of his life? I just can't see him wanting a possibly impoverished life style if his health was bad and he had to pay for health care somewhere else. Ok. Rant over. I welcome other's opinions.

First, in no way would I call this post a "rant."

Second, at 59, how much longer would he be likely to live? You figure at $25 K per year (exclusive of interest), if he had $500 k, he could spend that for 20 years. For a 30 year old, that wouldn't be too good; for and older person, that is a lifetime.

How expensive would it be to live in some foreign locations?

 

[SuperSmith]

Unfortunately in this case it is impossible to determine what happened to Ray Gricar. This discussion is based on opinion by ALL posters including myself.

I have and continue to believe it is more likely that a DA was murdered than staging a disappearance especially having retirement around the corner. What would be the point of disappearing? What would be gained? To me it does not speak to his character to assume he would neglect his duties as DA, put his family through a messy and very public ordeal, while leaving everything behind.

To believe Gricar did this is an insult to his character.

That said we are all different and are entitled to our own beliefs. For me walkaway makes no sense and there is zero proof to the contrary of Ray's character.

 

[SuperSmith]

First I would like to thank everyone for the posted links and the discussion that has brought up some interesting opinions and clarified some misconceptions on my part having been somewhat new to this case.

Now knowing the topography and the location of the SOS, bridges and the location of the laptop and drive, coupled with his phone call to PEF, I am about 65% walk away and 35% suicide.

After doing some on line searches, it appears to me that the Sandusky case with it's complexity is one of the few that has the potential to cause RG to have a clandestine meeting with one or more individuals in Lewisburg, and/or would give him the most cause for concern for whatever reason.

The proximity of the laptop, hard drive, SOS, the park and spot where the mini was found, along with RG driving back and forth as seen by witnesses runs up a large red flag that he was in Lewisburg on specific business, and that business involved information stored on his laptop. It is clear to me that his intent was to destroy the laptop and drive and dispose of it where he anticipated it would never be found, and if it were, would not provide any information.

I am of the opinion that the phone call to PEF was deceptive and to the best of our knowledge, he did not tell anyone else where he was going. This tells me there was little to no concern on his part about his safety.

My initial thought was that he went to Lewisburg to meet another witness or victim, but that would not explain the intent to destroy the computer, and this to me is very clear with the questions and research he did on that subject. I am 100% on his intent to destroy the computer and that data it contained. Not being tech savvy, he may assumed some data could be recovered from the computer itself and decided to destroy both the computer and hard drive (thinking the RAM chips might retain some data).

Not being a gun person, we can assume shooting himself was not a high probability. No bodies were found down river, ruling out suicide by drowning, and since he was not an outdoor person, one would assume that he would not have walked too far into the woods to commit suicide which would have put him well within the search area.

This puts us back on what we don't know about the money and who the woman he was talking to was. I could not find a travel agency listing in Lewisburg and did not note any on the list of shops in the SOS. My initial thought was that she was a travel agent and had airline tickets, but now am of the opinion she may have provided another vehicle and needed documents and tickets and possibly money. "Together but not holding hands" indicates to me a business meeting rather than a secret lover.

A convenient airport to use would have been Reading Regional. Small, out of the way, easy to leave a car that could be picked up later, and providing commuter flight links to other major airports....and...in the direction of travel if one is leaving Lewisburg and heading across the bridge out of town and dumping the laptop (per J.J.'s test). I know that airport very well and it would be almost perfect for someone who did not want to be noticed. Most of the time the staff looks like they would rather be asleep in a corner, and there is a small cafe and displays to look at to kill time.

I guess no more far fetched than any other theory. Struggling on the major stressor to put events into motion, I am not 100% it was the Sandusky case, but I cannot find anything else rising to that level.

There has been no evidence provided to conclude RG was even in Lewisburg that day or his laptop. A few eyewitnesses believing they saw him does not elevate to fact especially when there was other Mini sightings in town and a very busy busy weekend for a nearby university.

I am having a hard time believing that no one here thinks Ray just wanted to take a Friday off to go for a leisurely drive on a Spring day.