PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #12

[SuperSmith]

Well, first, I'm not sure if the car was opened in the lot and not at the barracks.

I will let Trackergd answer about the "cross contamination" aspect, but I have never heard of it occurring naturally. Quite clearly, the Mini had not been in the lot for 12+ hours when the bloodhound was brought in.

There is evidence that RFG was driving the Mini in Lewisburg, several witnesses, and no evidence of anyone else driving it. The bloodhound was obviously not influenced by the witnesses or vice versa.

Who JJ who? Who witnessed RG driving around in Lewisburg? I've heard of no one. It was a story that was never corroborated.

I do not need Tracker to answer. They are not the one that needs a science lesson.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The car had to have been opened in the lot most likely. It's the only way they could've transported it back to the barracks without setting off the alarm or damaging the car.

From what I've heard, it wasn't.

Cars are routinely towed while locked; I've seen it dozens of times in Philadelphia.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Who JJ who? Who witnessed RG driving around in Lewisburg? I've heard of no one. It was a story that was never corroborated.

I do not need Tracker to answer. They are not the one that needs a science lesson.

The witnesses did corroborate each other. In other words, they independently saw the same thing. Again, these have been linked several times, including one brought to the public's attention by BB in his letter, which has been quoted.

As for the claim of "science," if it really is, there would be multiple references. The only time I've heard about anything similar, it was due to pooling in the yard of the house where the person lived.

I would prefer to hear from someone in the field, since one is available.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Here are Texas guidelines: http://www.portarthur.com/tbsar/guidelines.htm

While it does note that living in a dwelling can produce a "family scent" or living in an institution can produce a "institutional scent," around the area, there is nothing about a car creating one.

 

[SuperSmith]

From what I've heard, it wasn't.

Cars are routinely towed while locked; I've seen it dozens of times in Philadelphia.

Really?? From what you heard??? How long will the admin here allow you to post as if you have some special insight to this case? I move that your post be deleted.

 

[SuperSmith]

The witnesses did corroborate each other. In other words, they independently saw the same thing. Again, these have been linked several times, including one brought to the public's attention by BB in his letter, which has been quoted.

As for the claim of "science," if it really is, there would be multiple references. The only time I've heard about anything similar, it was due to pooling in the yard of the house where the person lived.

I would prefer to hear from someone in the field, since one is available.

I'm sorry I missed the post about them being an "expert" on bloodhounds, handlers, training, and scent trails. I look forward to hearing it as well.

 

[SuperSmith]

The witnesses did corroborate each other. In other words, they independently saw the same thing. Again, these have been linked several times, including one brought to the public's attention by BB in his letter, which has been quoted.

As for the claim of "science," if it really is, there would be multiple references. The only time I've heard about anything similar, it was due to pooling in the yard of the house where the person lived.

I would prefer to hear from someone in the field, since one is available.

Then I suppose you believe Ivy Butterworth then too.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Really?? From what you heard??? How long will the admin here allow you to post as if you have some special insight to this case? I move that your post be deleted.

No, not from what I have seen.

In Philadelphia, we have something called the Philadelphia Parking Authority. PPA. They are known for giving tickets, booting and towing cars. I have seen them tow locked cars, including my next door neighbor's car, around a dozen times. They towed it without justification, and I actually helped her fight the ticket.

One source that I have communicated with indicates that the Mini was opened was opened at the PSP Barracks in Milton. I am not sure of the location, but it might not have been opened by LE at the parking lot across from the SOS.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Then I suppose you believe Ivy Butterworth then too.

If there were a string of witnesses that also saw RFG with a bid haired blond, yes. There wasn't. There were multiple witnesses who saw him driving the Mini into the parking lot between 5:00-5:30 PM on 4/15. There was a witness who saw him heading in the direction of the lot between 4:00-PM PM. And we have at least two witnesses that saw him in the SOS after that. We also have RFG's scent in the lot.

 

[SuperSmith]

No, not from what I have seen.

In Philadelphia, we have something called the Philadelphia Parking Authority. PPA. They are known for giving tickets, booting and towing cars. I have seen them tow locked cars, including my next door neighbor's car, around a dozen times. They towed it without justification, and I actually helped her fight the ticket.

One source that I have communicated with indicates that the Mini was opened was opened at the PSP Barracks in Milton. I am not sure of the location, but it might not have been opened by LE at the parking lot across from the SOS.

I'm one, sure there are others, that if you cannot verify your claim then it is not responsible to post it. Only clouds the case further.

NO ONE, should simply take your word for it. Nor should they take mine or others without supporting information.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm one, sure there are others, that if you cannot verify your claim then it is not responsible to post it. Only clouds the case further.

NO ONE, should simply take your word for it. Nor should they take mine or others without supporting information.

I'm sure that anyone that has lived in a major city or area with parking problems is familiar with the process.

Here are a few examples:

http://philapark.org/faqs/booting-towing-and-impoundment/

http://www.cityofchicago.org/city/e...w_information/booted_vehicle_information.html

http://www.facilities.ohiou.edu/parking/gi_towing.htm

Now, they obviously don't need to get the driver's keys and open the car to do it.

Here are some photos: http://www.nassaucountyny.gov/agencies/countyexecutive/newsrelease/2010/5-13-2011a.htm

Phila uses a flatbed type tow truck like the one seen in the photos. This has been done in some cities for more than a quarter century, so I really don't know why it is being questioned.

As to where the car was opened by LE, it is an open question. One source indicated, to my surprise, that it was not opened until it was at PSP Barracks in Milton. Now, I doubt that the car was towed to the SOS parking lot; that process tends to make a lot of noise. It has been enough to wake me up at night.

 

[Trackergd]

Being that Gricar almost exclusively drove the Mini isn't it fair to say that his scent would've been in it? Gricar did not have to be there for his scent to be. FBI and CIA experiments have proven this.

Someone in your position should be well aware of this.

Dixon furthermore stated several times that the bloodhound picked up NO trail.

Ground scent dogs noses pick up dead skin cells that are sloughed off by your body 24/7. They compare the smell to the scent imprint given by a sample of clothing from the subject.

I made a couple of calls to get some handler feedback and while it is possible that a very small number of skin cells could have blown out of the Mini when it was opened (if it was opened by LE), it probably would not have been enough to cause the dog to alert, and not enough for the dog to walk around the lot looking for a continuation of the scent trail.

In the Lauren Jackson case, Jim Hosgoods Bloodhound was confused by other scents and auto exhaust and the Bloodhound and I had to leap frog so that I could find tracks when the dog could not get the scent.

As a scent trail can be easily contaminated and may not last very long if the scent is weak, I submit the fact the dog alerted to RG's scent would suggest more than a small amount of skin cells.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped:

Ground scent dogs noses pick up dead skin cells that are sloughed off by your body 24/7. They compare the smell to the scent imprint given by a sample of clothing from the subject.

I made a couple of calls to get some handler feedback and while it is possible that a very small number of skin cells could have blown out of the Mini when it was opened (if it was opened by LE), it probably would not have been enough to cause the dog to alert, and not enough for the dog to walk around the lot looking for a continuation of the scent trail.

Coupled with the witnesses, that should show, beyond a reasonable doubt, that RFG was there at least on 4/15.

Okay, if he was there on 4/16/05 (BB thinks he was, but I honestly have some doubts), there are a couple of questions:

1. Where did he spend the night?

2. Why didn't he tell anyone where he was, at least on that morning? The cell phone is in the car, so he could have called.

Now, a rather disgusting question, but one I have to ask.

Would the bloodhound have detected any feces or urine that was from the target person? How likely would that stand out to the bloodhound if, for example, RFG stood behind the SOS and relieved himself?

 

[SuperSmith]

No, not from what I have seen.

In Philadelphia, we have something called the Philadelphia Parking Authority. PPA. They are known for giving tickets, booting and towing cars. I have seen them tow locked cars, including my next door neighbor's car, around a dozen times. They towed it without justification, and I actually helped her fight the ticket.

One source that I have communicated with indicates that the Mini was opened was opened at the PSP Barracks in Milton. I am not sure of the location, but it might not have been opened by LE at the parking lot across from the SOS.

If you rewatch the Disappeared episode that you are fond of referencing it clearly indicates the Mini was opened in the parking lot so I think we can put to bed the notion that it wasn't opened until it reached the barracks.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

If you rewatch the Disappeared episode that you are fond of referencing it clearly indicates the Mini was opened in the parking lot so I think we can put to bed the notion that it wasn't opened until it reached the barracks.

As I've indicated, that might not be accurate. One source that I had indicated that it was opened in Milton, which did surprise me.

In any event, if opened, it is unlikely, if not impossible, to create the spillage.

So we have both physical and eyewitness evidence that RFG was there, at least on 4/15/05.

Now, we return to 4/16/05. If RFG was there on 4/16:

1. Where did he spend the night?

2. Why didn't he phone someone, especially PEF?

 

[Steely Dan]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned. NG mysteries on Friday is about Ray Gricar.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned. NG mysteries on Friday is about Ray Gricar.

NG? Nancy Grace?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

NG? Nancy Grace?

Yes.

Her big intro today was about how he told his girlfriend that he was going out antiquing that day and that he was NEVER seen again...
In a way only she can say it..

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Thank you both.

I was not a fan of her previous show on RFG. I do have a blog up on it.

http://www.centredaily.com/2014/01/15/3986152/a-graceious-appearance.html

 

[SuperSmith]

Thank you both.

I was not a fan of her previous show on RFG. I do have a blog up on it.

http://www.centredaily.com/2014/01/15/3986152/a-graceious-appearance.html

Thanks for the link to the blog. It gave me a good laugh for the day. I did find it highly hypocritical that the writer frowned upon NG as being biased to the Walkaway theory. That is laughable being that the same writer spends most of their time for this case promoting that very theory.

An attempt I suppose to make unbiased stance. For those that read here or anywhere else I trust they will not fall for it.