PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #12

[BigCat]

If RFG walked away because he didn't want to be labeled as "The Man Who Failed to Stop Sandusky," why he wouldn't he have tried to bring charges if he felt that way? He didn't believe it was a prosecutable crime then, so why would he punish himself, his daughter and PF?

Was there more evidence of Sandusky's perverted activities in 2005 that RFG was aware of, or would RFG have been dealing with the same weak evidence he had back in 1998?

And would anyone be thinking he had committed suicide if his brother had not?

Sorry to butt in. I have been aware of this case and disturbed by it for years. Something about it caught my attention here recently.

The evidence in 1998 wasn't all that weak, considering Sandusky was convicted on the same evidence in 2012 (There was a second victim in 1998, who did not testify in 2012 because he was overseas in the military, so we could say there was actually less evidence in 2012 than there was in 98.)

It's difficult to discuss RFG's state of mind since we're unsure why he didn't prosecute in 98. He may have believed he would have not been able to get a conviction against Sandusky in 98, which I doubt as well, and didn't want to put the victim through the ordeal. He may have simply made a political decision.

There is also the question: why didn't he investigate further? He never interviewed the victims himself. He also didn't search for other victims, and we know now there were 3 (4?) other victims in Second Mile at that time.

I think RFG missed a great opportunity to stop Sandusky from committing further crimes in 1998 (even if Sandusky wasn't convicted, his access to potential victims would certainly have been greatly diminished by the mere accusation of child molestation). When RFG realized that or whether he ever realized that, we just don't know.

 

[MissJ]

Any "long" trip, even domestically, would have required some planning.

RFG (and PEF) would have to arrange to be off work, would have to do things like make motel reservations. I think that for national parks, arrangements would have to be made.

There was no solid, **We'll be leaving on the 5th and be in Butte, Montana, on the 8th** type of thing.

We were talking trips after retirement. Not everyone makes motel reservations several months from their trip. He had not even retired yet, why would he need to make reservations that far out?

 

[MissJ]

I think, in general, security is less of a concern to a man than a woman, especially in comparison to his reputation. How many men have died rather than be thought a coward in the course of human history?

Personally, I don't think a pension and health care insurance is enough to offset the stigma of being known as "The Man Who Failed to Stop Sandusky." Just look at the hell Mike McQueary's life has turned into and he did more to stop Sandusky than RFG. If I could have found a way for my daughter to receive my pension, I would have walked away as well, if I were RFG.

Let me make it clear: I'm not suggesting that it's fair that RFG is labeled as the "The Man Who Failed to Stop Sandusky." In fact, the unfairness of the label is all the more reason to walk away.

Of course, I have the benefit of hindsight. Did RFG possess enough foresight to see what the future held and he planned a walkaway? That's a question I have a hard time answering. He would be the ultimate chess master if he did.

JMO

If you work in a government job, in general your pay is less than it would be if you are doing the same job in the private sector. That is offset by the fact that you do have a good pension plan and health insurance benefits. To walk away for no reason a few months before you are to receive those benefits makes no sense. I don't think the Sandusky problem had anything to do with it. RFG did not have a nagging wife and a houseful of unruly kids he was running away from. He could have left PEF anytime he chose. Stressed out doesn't necessarily mean suicide. How do you suicide and hide your body?

 

[BigCat]

If you work in a government job, in general your pay is less than it would be if you are doing the same job in the private sector. That is offset by the fact that you do have a good pension plan and health insurance benefits. To walk away for no reason a few months before you are to receive those benefits makes no sense. I don't think the Sandusky problem had anything to do with it. RFG did not have a nagging wife and a houseful of unruly kids he was running away from. He could have left PEF anytime he chose. Stressed out doesn't necessarily mean suicide. How do you suicide and hide your body?

It makes no sense unless it was connected to the biggest scandal in the history of Central PA, IMO. I would put foul play in the same category. I don't see why anyone would want, not only to murder RFG, but also to make his body disappear unless it's connected to the Sandusky scandal. At least with suicide, there is a family history. In fact, I think the plausibility of suicide increases tremendously, if we exclude any connection to Sandusky.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

We were talking trips after retirement. Not everyone makes motel reservations several months from their trip. He had not even retired yet, why would he need to make reservations that far out?

However, other that just a general intent to travel, we don't know about any "plans."

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It makes no sense unless it was connected to the biggest scandal in the history of Central PA, IMO. I would put foul play in the same category. I don't see why anyone would want, not only to murder RFG, but also to make his body disappear unless it's connected to the Sandusky scandal. At least with suicide, there is a family history. In fact, I think the plausibility of suicide increases tremendously, if we exclude any connection to Sandusky.

I couldn't even come up with a reason connected to the Sandusky Scandal why someone would want to make his body disappear, as part of a preplanned plot. It would have been so easy to force him off the road in a remote area and shoot him.

 

[BigCat]

I couldn't even come up with a reason connected to the Sandusky Scandal why someone would want to make his body disappear, as part of a preplanned plot. It would have been so easy to force him off the road in a remote area and shoot him.

It would be my assumption that a district attorney in central PA would carry a handgun, so I don't know if a killer would choose to force him off the road. At the very least, RFG would have a cell phone and could call in a description of the vehicle that forced him off the road.

Nevertheless, I agree it doesn't make much sense to make his body disappear. The only scenario I could think of is if someone lured RFG to a location or a vehicle where he felt safe and he was murdered there. If the killer or killers could be linked to the crime scene, then it would be necessary to dispose of the body. I'm not saying it's likely; it's just the best I can do.

 

[SeekingJana]

Snipped



I would not, and did not, say "embellished."

.

Nope, you didn't say that. Another poster did. Sorry for the mix up.
It wasn't deliberate.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It would be my assumption that a district attorney in central PA would carry a handgun, so I don't know if a killer would choose to force him off the road. At the very least, RFG would have a cell phone and could call in a description of the vehicle that forced him off the road.

Nevertheless, I agree it doesn't make much sense to make his body disappear. The only scenario I could think of is if someone lured RFG to a location or a vehicle where he felt safe and he was murdered there. If the killer or killers could be linked to the crime scene, then it would be necessary to dispose of the body. I'm not saying it's likely; it's just the best I can do.

Your assumption is both quite reasonable and quite incorrect. It is quite reasonable because I made the same assumption. According to Tony, RFG didn't like guns and didn't carry.

RFG drove on a highway that has about a 10-15 mile "dead zone" on it. There was no cell coverage. There are virtually no residences or businesses. It is probably the less well traveled road of the three main roads to Lewisburg. I'm told the PSP generally does not patrol it. It is a near ideal place for an ambush, and one of the last places in Centre County someone worried about his safety would go, especially unarmed.

Going down there for to meet someone is possible, by why are there no records? There is some evidence that he was planning to be in Lewisburg that day. There is no evidence of a meeting. Something "official" is unlikely, because it is not in his jurisdiction and he wouldn't have to "play hooky" to leave for something official.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Nope, you didn't say that. Another poster did. Sorry for the mix up.
It wasn't deliberate.

No problem.

I'm quite sure RFG did talk, broadly, about traveling in retirement.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped a bit.

If RFG walked away because he didn't want to be labeled as "The Man Who Failed to Stop Sandusky," why he wouldn't he have tried to bring charges if he felt that way? He didn't believe it was a prosecutable crime then, so why would he punish himself, his daughter and PF?

One possibility, for which there is no evidence is that, by walking away, he removed a threat to his pension. If RFG's conduct in this case was such that it would rise to the level of illegality, he would lose his pension, upon conviction.

There have been two possibilities discussed (neither of which I originated):

1. He was paid off.

2. He discovered another victim (Victim 4 was contemporary in 1998), and didn't report it.

There is, mercifully, no evidence for either. If either were true he could have faced criminal charges and ultimately lost his pension if convicted.

Was there more evidence of Sandusky's perverted activities in 2005 that RFG was aware of, or would RFG have been dealing with the same weak evidence he had back in 1998?

The 1998 evidence was stronger in 1998 that it was when Sandusky was convicted in 2012. RFG's actions in 1998 do point to him not aggressively pursuing a conviction.

 

[shadow of my mind]

I have not posted about RG disappearance before. I followed this case, through MSM, when RG first disappeared. When the Sandusky-Penn State case hit the papers, I again became interested, mainly because it is unusual for a DA to be still missing, but did not spend any real time delving into the details of the case.

I decided to take some time and go back to the very first post here on WS and read through all 11 threads and refresh my memory. This has been hampered somewhat by the inaccessibility of older links that give so many of the details that are truly needed to better understand what happened, when it happened, and who said what and when.

My understanding of RG:
Our missing person: Age 59, 6 foot in height, average weight and in good physical shape. He was an almost out-the-courthouse door DA, who was well educated, and at least publically, was been deemed to be respected, of good character and very competent with somewhat of a bulldog type prosecuting style. The only real questionable case known to date: not prosecuting Sandusky. He was hardworking, conscientious, and said to be thorough in his work. He also was very private, and did not disclose a lot of personal information to colleagues.

He apparently did not have any known complicated love entanglements and was living with his girlfriend, Patty F, (a 3 year old relationship) in her childhood home at the time he disappeared. This was a man who had no known debts, no longer owned any real-estate property and was also not known to have accumulated any assets that are excessive for his income, although some feel that they may be a bit too low.

He also did not have much in the way of any family ties except one grown-up, on her own adoptive daughter; who he maintained contact with, along with several nephews and some cousins in Slovenia, who he had visited twice. He did keep pictures of his family on his office wall. He had two ex-wives, one whom he was on speaking terms with and one whom he did not. He had a dog, and a few friends who were also his peers professionally. His live-in girlfriend was well known and locally born and raised also worked for the county in the same building as he did.

He was showing signs of some type of duress, or maybe stress would be a better word. He had been tired more lately, according to PF and was sometimes taking naps during the day. He was somewhat distracted, but not in any way that caused problems with his work. Reasons for this are very unclear, and there is conflicting statements from colleagues about what could have been the reason; with most of them who he came in contact with on a regular basis did not notice any difference in his behavior at all. His appearance was normal, with no change in how he dressed or kept himself. Nothing in his medical information shed any light on the matter.

 

[shadow of my mind]

What we know:

Thursday April 14 2005 8:00am RG had a previously scheduled meeting of the prison board. RG had returned from the meeting appearing agitated for an unknown reason.

Thursday April 14 2005 RG was seen entering the courthouse around 6:00pm and leaving before 9:00pm. This was documented by security cameras.

Friday April 15 2005 11:30am RG’s cell phone was used to make a call. The call placed the phone in the Brush Valley area.

Saturday April 16 2005 6:00pm (and by some accounts 6:30pm) RG’s car was discovered in a dirt parking area across from an building called the Street of Shops in Lewisburg by a policeman taking a short cut.

July (unknown date) 2005 (unknown to the public until reported on Saturday October 22 2005) A hard drive (determined to be unreadable) that would fit RG’s laptop computer was found by a women and her young daughter 10 to 15 feet from the river bank, about 100 yards from where the computer was later found.

Tuesday August 2 2005 A laptop computer, missing its hard drive and determined to be RG’s was discovered by two fishermen in the area of the Route 45 bridge between Lewisburg and Milton.

RG’s bank account and credit cards as well as e-mail account have never been used.

No body has ever been recovered, no suicide note was found, no independently documented sighting of RG past the evening on Thursday 4/14/2005 at the court house.

And after almost 9 years there is no known suspect(s) or even a named POI.

 

[shadow of my mind]

What we think we know:

On Wednesday April 13 2005, or in some accounts it was on Thursday April 14 2005 RG was seen at Raystown Lake. This sighting was by a doctor who remembers seeing a man that could have been RG, with another man in a car that fits the description of RF’s min

When RG returned on Thursday April14 2025 from a pre-planned prison meeting he was agitated. This meeting has been verified and no one stated that they noticed anything different in the way he acted. It would also be safe to assume that this meeting and its location would have been known to others.

Friday April 15 2005 cell phone call as reported by PF was that RG was on Rt. 192 and was going for a drive so he would not be able back in time to take care of the dog. We know this call did come from RG cell phone, although it cannot be independently verified to have actually been placed by RG, but assumed to be correct. This assumption is based on the fact that PF passed a polygraph test.

The Friday April 15 2005 Sightings of RG cannot be collaborated and verified independently by hard evidence. No surveillance footage show RG was there The number of witnesses in Lewisburg that state that they saw RG on that day may be taken as verifiable if you use the “some of them could be mistaken but not all them mistaken” theory.

The Saturday April 16 2005 This days sightings are questionable. They have come from two employees of the SOS and the owner of SOS, all who can’t say with certainty that they saw him that day. Again, no surveillance footage show RG was there, nor was there any recorded purchase by check or credit card.

There have been other sightings, all of which LE have stated are unreliable or not valid for various reasons.

 

[shadow of my mind]

Things that may be un-related and are interfering with figuring out what happen
The Susquehanna River was high at the time of RG disappearance. Pure coincidence?

A “mystery woman”, described as tall, with short brown hair and attractive was also reported to have been seen with RG.

The similarity of the setting along a river in a small town; conjuring up an almost ghost like re- occurrence from 9 years past of RG’s brother Roy’s suicide in Ohio.

 

[shadow of my mind]

Actions that leave questions

With no phone call to PF that he would not be returning home Friday night (for whatever reason), as a DA and with PF family connections as a life-long resident, RG would have had to assume that any normal waiting time for police involvement would not be adhered to, which is in effect, exactly what happen.
Would he “risk” staying in Lewisburg overnight if he had planned to walk away?

The disappearance location is stated to have been in Lewisburg because of a where the car was located. Is this a maybe? Yes, because technically no verifiable evidence can actually place RG with the car there. An alert from a dog gives evidence that there is a possibility that he may have exited his car and entered another car in the parking lot, but that is subjective to the public, mainly due to lack of information on what type of dog was used, known experience of dog and handler, and under what type of search perimeters the dog was used. This coupled with the “sightings” gives weight to the possibility that RG was in Lewisburg at least until approximately 6:00pm Friday April 15 2005.

There are witnesses that said his car was parked in several different spaces within the same parking lot, which would suggest that he came, left, and returned again during the day of April 15 2005. Did he go somewhere else in Lewisburg? Where would he have gone, to only return to the same place later? And did no one else see him in any other place than the park area across the street, the SOS and his car in the parking lot?
If he was in Lewisburg the entire afternoon, and not hiding the fact that he was there (multiply witnesses) how is that no one remembers him purchasing food or beverage of any type or seeing him in any other location? Was it his habit to not eat anything during the day?

 

[shadow of my mind]

What Stands out to Me:

Without making a complete timeline of everything that has been done, found, or said concerning this case there are several things that stand out to me.

The Car --- …..in terms of any evidence.
Not much.
Only one partially clean print, stated to be RG’s, on the outside of the driver’s window. The rest are smudged finger prints, plus 2 others that are unknown, and the lingering smell of tobacco smoke plus a trace amount of ash on the passenger side front seat floor. An empty water bottle (has RG DNA on it) and a turned off cell phone. That’s all.

No sighting of the car sitting in the lot overnight Friday night? No statement that anyone from the SOS remembers the car being there first thing in the AM on 4/16/2005?

No mention of prints on the inside of the car? No reports of any of his or anyone else’s hair found? Any person would have a very limited chance of not leaving a least one itty-bitsy strand of hair behind. For that matter, there should have been at least hair from RG himself, since he drove the car every day. Readable fingers print on a knob or somewhere on the steering wheel or the mirror. Was Patty F never in this car to leave any of her prints or hair behind?
I know that RG has been said to keep his car immaculate but …. no one is that fastidious not to leave some trace of themselves behind. Maybe LE has these answers, but they have not been given to the public.

The cell phone was turned off and locked in the car. Did RG do this so he would not be disturbed? RG was a DA and even though he had taken time off from work (supposedly) would it mean that he did not want to be contacted regarding any urgent issues that could have possibly come up at the office. From what I have read this would not match his set standard protocol….contact me first; something that was well established. Not answering the phone and letting calls go to voice mail would have been sufficient if he did not want to have to immediately answer each call. But at some time during the day, would he have not powered on his phone to check the voice mail? Did someone else turn the phone off? Exactly when was the phone powered off?

“An odor of tobacco smoke smell” is how the police officer described it in one of the YouTube videos that are still on line, plus a small trace amount of ash on the passenger side floor. RG did not smoke and didn’t let anyone smoke in his car. Where did the ash come from? The “ash could have come from someone leaning in the window who was smoking” explanation has some merit, but then would there not have been some other trace of that person as well? And that does not answer the odor of smoke when the car was opened.

Why isn’t there any composite sketch done of the mystery women? Nothing, that I have found said that one has ever been circulated, nor was this disclosed to the public until approximately one year later. This in effect kept LE from gathering any additional information that could have proved to be extremely beneficial to finding out what happen to RG.

 

[shadow of my mind]

What I would like to Known:

Lack of knowing exactly what police have learned severely hampers anyone being able to make an educated guess to what could have happen to RG. Some things that may help with making an educated guess would be….

Knowing more on what other evidence was found in the car such as hair and prints or lack thereof.

Cell phone records of calls placed, at least for that month, and tower locations of pings would give some clues as to where he may been, any unusual travel patterns, which could lead to who he had contact with.

Having transcripts of what witnesses said to LE would not help to better understand what they actually saw but to look for discrepancies or clues.

Knowing more about the dog alert is something that could be explored in more depth. Establishment of what type of dog was used, the experience of the handler, along with experience of the dog, and a record of correct alerts in training would do much to substantiate if RG was actually in that parking lot or it was just his car that was in the parking lot.

 

[shadow of my mind]

The computer puzzle
The Hard Drive & Laptop, found in the river several months after the fact is something that really adds to the confusion in attempting to figure out what happen. What is the connection to his disappearance?

The real question remains. Why was the laptop with RG to begin with?
Could he have brought it with him to Lewisburg to have work done on it since most likely doing so in his own town would have made the rumor mill.

The hard drive, (not verified to have come from RG laptop computer) and a RG’s laptop (which was verified) were found right near the disappearance location, but not for several months.

As far as the significance of the hard drive being tossed in the river has some bearing on the found internet searches about wiping/destroying data on a computer hard drive done by RG himself. This was something that he had openly discussed with some colleagues. That little bit of knowledge leads me to believe that he was not readily concerned about actually wiping the drive, just that when he did so, he did it correctly. This also matches that LE stating that a box with that type of software had been seen by PF or was found by PF. [Memory is not clear as to which one it actually was.]
RG would, I presume, want to be able to return the laptop at retirement, with a working operating system, since it was county owned property.
The laptop being tossed in the river when he went missing would depend on if RG had it with him when he disappeared.
The two actions may not be connected and are coincidental to each other --- One being the hard drive tossing may have been by RG, but the computer itself may have been the person(s), (if you subscribe to the foul play theory), responsible for him disappearing and was done to simply get rid of an item that could potentially tie whoever to a crime.
And they would not necessarily have to have been tossed in the river at the same time but it just was the most logical place to do so.

Possibly theory:
RG wanted just to be completely sure he had wiped the drive. Went to a Lewisburg computer store to see if he what he did actually wiped the drive and found out it did not. Asked to have it done and then for added insurance, decided to have drive removed and tossed it in the river. Computer was in the car, minus its drive, but perpetrator(s) did not know that and they tossed the computer in river to rid of evidence.
This also begs the question why didn’t that computer tech person come forward to LE?


And….. Do we really know that the laptop actually was with RG that day? As far as I have read, there has been no time frame established about as to when investigators went looking for the laptop or when it was first discovered that RG’s laptop was missing.

We do know by what has been reported that RG stored it in a closet in a case and had not used it for some time. I don’t remember seeing any reports that stated any of the witnesses actually said they say RG with the laptop in Lewisburg.

 

[shadow of my mind]

My Opinion:

My first instinct back in 2005 was foul play, mainly because of the fact that he was a DA and that profession has a tendency to accumulate some nasty people who can hold a grudge and may want revenge.
Then I leaned toward suicide, but after several months had gone by and the river did not give up a body, I went toward walk away. With reading through all of these posts I think that the closeness to his retirement just does not make sense to me for a walk away, except under fear for his life, but then I have the added problem that it would not keep RG’s daughter and girlfriend from becoming a substitute target, so without taking them with him, what does he truly accomplish.
I have now been learning toward foul play, but the reason, as mentioned on this site so often, is who would harm him and why.

I think that a detailed timeline that includes everything that is known about RG would be very helpful to ferret out “actual facts” from what is “perceived facts” or “opinions”, to help with possible clues in this case. This timeline should include a list of his colleagues and family, with information about his past cases both in PA and Ohio, as well as any political issues to see if there is any connection beside the obvious ones. Knowing who made statements about RG, along with any comments made about his character, his job, habits, both before and after his disappearance and when they made those comments would be especially helpful.

A true timeline would be an enormous task, especially at this late date. It also may be the only way to see if some small detail has been overlooked. The fact that there is going to be information that only LE knows will make any time line that could be done by anyone here at WS considered incomplete.

I did discover that there is a newspaper published independently by Penn State’s students called the The Daily Collegian Newspaper. It is available on line and can be viewed without charge all the way back to 1985.
Link to Main page:
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/

In looking through some random articles about RG I have found some interesting information. One that really surprised me was that PF had asked to be polygraph to dispel rumors that she had anything to do with RG disappearance.
Link:
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archives/article_a62aa141-23d0-511d-af0e-71ad50c15e96.html

Another detail, one that I do not remember as having made into any post on this site was “Investigators, deducing that foul play is more of a possibility than suicide and run-away theories, have begun to lean more toward the foul-play theory in recent months, though they have little information to corroborate it” This is all the way back from an article dated January 17 2006.
Link: http://www.collegian.psu.edu/search/?t=article&q=Students+unfamiliar+with+missing+DA+case+

You would have thought that something by now would have surfaced that would at least give investigators some direction. Even if that direction ended up being ruled out. At least it could be crossed of the list. Why after almost nine years are we still at the exact same place?
Did he commit Suicide? – Did he voluntarily just Walk Away? – Or was it Foul Play?

I can’t quite put my finger on it but it seems to me that there is something very important in this case that is being overlooked. Whatever “that” is will be the key to finding out what happen to RG.
and in my opinion Law Enforcements silence is deafening.

Where is Ray Gricar?

And yes I realize…. somewhat out of the ordinary to make that many posts all at once. Just wanted to put my two cents ...well maybe 5 cents, in.
Thank you all for keeping RG disappearance from becoming just another memory.