PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #12

[MissJ]

My Opinion:

My first instinct back in 2005 was foul play, mainly because of the fact that he was a DA and that profession has a tendency to accumulate some nasty people who can hold a grudge and may want revenge.
Then I leaned toward suicide, but after several months had gone by and the river did not give up a body, I went toward walk away. With reading through all of these posts I think that the closeness to his retirement just does not make sense to me for a walk away, except under fear for his life, but then I have the added problem that it would not keep RG’s daughter and girlfriend from becoming a substitute target, so without taking them with him, what does he truly accomplish.
I have now been learning toward foul play, but the reason, as mentioned on this site so often, is who would harm him and why.

I think that a detailed timeline that includes everything that is known about RG would be very helpful to ferret out “actual facts” from what is “perceived facts” or “opinions”, to help with possible clues in this case. This timeline should include a list of his colleagues and family, with information about his past cases both in PA and Ohio, as well as any political issues to see if there is any connection beside the obvious ones. Knowing who made statements about RG, along with any comments made about his character, his job, habits, both before and after his disappearance and when they made those comments would be especially helpful.

A true timeline would be an enormous task, especially at this late date. It also may be the only way to see if some small detail has been overlooked. The fact that there is going to be information that only LE knows will make any time line that could be done by anyone here at WS considered incomplete.

I did discover that there is a newspaper published independently by Penn State’s students called the The Daily Collegian Newspaper. It is available on line and can be viewed without charge all the way back to 1985.
Link to Main page:
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/

In looking through some random articles about RG I have found some interesting information. One that really surprised me was that PF had asked to be polygraph to dispel rumors that she had anything to do with RG disappearance.
Link:
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archives/article_a62aa141-23d0-511d-af0e-71ad50c15e96.html

Another detail, one that I do not remember as having made into any post on this site was “Investigators, deducing that foul play is more of a possibility than suicide and run-away theories, have begun to lean more toward the foul-play theory in recent months, though they have little information to corroborate it” This is all the way back from an article dated January 17 2006.
Link: http://www.collegian.psu.edu/search/?t=article&q=Students+unfamiliar+with+missing+DA+case+

You would have thought that something by now would have surfaced that would at least give investigators some direction. Even if that direction ended up being ruled out. At least it could be crossed of the list. Why after almost nine years are we still at the exact same place?
Did he commit Suicide? – Did he voluntarily just Walk Away? – Or was it Foul Play?

I can’t quite put my finger on it but it seems to me that there is something very important in this case that is being overlooked. Whatever “that” is will be the key to finding out what happen to RG.
and in my opinion Law Enforcements silence is deafening.

Where is Ray Gricar?

And yes I realize…. somewhat out of the ordinary to make that many posts all at once. Just wanted to put my two cents ...well maybe 5 cents, in.
Thank you all for keeping RG disappearance from becoming just another memory.

Well thought out post. Thanks. FWIW, I agree.:twocents::drumroll:

 

[Trackergd]

I still want to walk the area of the parking lot, SOS and where the computer was found with JJ and take some pictures to share here.

As noted, there is a missing piece that when known will cause everything else to make sense.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

First, welcome to this thread.

There was no account of RFG being at Raystown on 4/13/15. I believe he was at work. It was 4/14. He was at a prison board meeting earlier that day that adjourned at 8:50 AM, though there was subsequent discussion of a grievance. He was seen at the boat landing there between 10:30 and 11:00 AM. That is consistent with the rest of the day's witnesses, who place him in the office in the early afternoon and in the park in the late afternoon.

There were witnesses that put RFG in the Mini, in the parking lot, where the Mini was found, and where his scent was detected. There were also witnesses who saw the Mini parked in the lot later on 4/15 and on the day of 4/16. That doesn't prove it was there overnight.

With the dog, and with looking at the search pattern, RFG being in Lewisburg, these are consistent with RFG arriving in Lewisburg just after lunch on 4/15/05, when the first witnesses spotted him. I think it there proof beyond a reasonable doubt that RFG was in Lewisburg in the afternoon of 4/15/05.

There were no unknown prints in the Mini. There were several unreadable prints in the Mini that lacked sufficient ridge characteristics to determine who left those prints. That does indicate the car was not wiped down, but it does not preclude someone wearing gloves.

RFG had asked people, including a defense attorney, about how to get rid of the data on his drive and did purchase software to do that; I wish I could shed more light on which defense attorney than I am currently. He also had done computer searches on how to destroy a drive within 30 days of his disappearance. At least one witness saw RFG sitting in the Mini with the laptop in Lewisburg. (That may not be related to his disappearance.)

The laptop, which was definitely RFG's, was found in proximity to the bridge on 7/30/05, minus the drive. The drive was found in excess of 100 yards upstream in 9/05. It fit his laptop, but, unlike the laptop, its registration numbers were not recorded. It was found within 75 yards of a spot where multiple witnesses had seen RFG park the Mini on 4/15.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Actions that leave questions

With no phone call to PF that he would not be returning home Friday night (for whatever reason), as a DA and with PF family connections as a life-long resident, RG would have had to assume that any normal waiting time for police involvement would not be adhered to, which is in effect, exactly what happen.
Would he “risk” staying in Lewisburg overnight if he had planned to walk away?

There could be several reasons that tie into walkaway.

1. RFG missed his connection.

2. His vehicle, his method of leaving, was not ready.

3. He wanted to attract attention to Lewisburg on that day when he was actually spending the night someplace in Centre County with his helper.

He could not know, or control, when he would be reported missing or the initial LE response. He may have assumed they really wouldn't do anything for 24 hours, when in fact they would in about 12 hours. Even then, they were focusing on Brush Valley.

The disappearance location is stated to have been in Lewisburg because of a where the car was located. Is this a maybe? Yes, because technically no verifiable evidence can actually place RG with the car there. An alert from a dog gives evidence that there is a possibility that he may have exited his car and entered another car in the parking lot, but that is subjective to the public, mainly due to lack of information on what type of dog was used, known experience of dog and handler, and under what type of search perimeters the dog was used. This coupled with the “sightings” gives weight to the possibility that RG was in Lewisburg at least until approximately 6:00pm Friday April 15 2005.

That RFG got into another car is opinion. That the dog detected his scent in the parking lot is not. That is physical evidence that RFG was there, and that is backed up by multiple independent witnesses.

There are witnesses that said his car was parked in several different spaces within the same parking lot, which would suggest that he came, left, and returned again during the day of April 15 2005. Did he go somewhere else in Lewisburg? Where would he have gone, to only return to the same place later? And did no one else see him in any other place than the park area across the street, the SOS and his car in the parking lot?
If he was in Lewisburg the entire afternoon, and not hiding the fact that he was there (multiply witnesses) how is that no one remembers him purchasing food or beverage of any type or seeing him in any other location? Was it his habit to not eat anything during the day?

The moving of the Mini was in one of three parking spots across from the Packwood House Museum. That was around lunch time. He was seen pulling into the lot across from the SOS around 5-5:30 PM. Both time were on 4/15/05.

As for eating, the servers at various restaurants could not remember. Most were crowded, because it was "parent's weekend" at Bucknell. I think a better question is, where did he spend the night, if he was there on 4/16?

Note, however, that there was a gap in Lewisburg sightings between about 1-1:30 PM and 4-5:00 PM. There, however, is a claim that he was spotted in Bellefonte at 3:00 PM, the "Fenton sighting."

 

[PPKik]

My Opinion:

<respectfully snipped for space>

A true timeline would be an enormous task, especially at this late date. It also may be the only way to see if some small detail has been overlooked. The fact that there is going to be information that only LE knows will make any time line that could be done by anyone here at WS considered incomplete.

I did discover that there is a newspaper published independently by Penn State&#8217;s students called the The Daily Collegian Newspaper. It is available on line and can be viewed without charge all the way back to 1985.
Link to Main page:
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/

In looking through some random articles about RG I have found some interesting information. One that really surprised me was that PF had asked to be polygraph to dispel rumors that she had anything to do with RG disappearance.
Link:
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archives/article_a62aa141-23d0-511d-af0e-71ad50c15e96.html

Another detail, one that I do not remember as having made into any post on this site was &#8220;Investigators, deducing that foul play is more of a possibility than suicide and run-away theories, have begun to lean more toward the foul-play theory in recent months, though they have little information to corroborate it&#8221; This is all the way back from an article dated January 17 2006.
Link: http://www.collegian.psu.edu/search/?t=article&q=Students+unfamiliar+with+missing+DA+case+


I can&#8217;t quite put my finger on it but it seems to me that there is something very important in this case that is being overlooked. Whatever &#8220;that&#8221; is will be the key to finding out what happen to RG.
and in my opinion Law Enforcements silence is deafening.

BBM


Great posts! Thanks for the old links that I was not aware of.

I could not agree more with you about LE's deafening silence. It makes no sense to me, if they really ran into a brick wall, that they would not share some details with the public, i.e., phone pings and usage, a description of so-called "mystery woman," etc.

I have always believed much more about Ray Gricar's disappearance was known by his office and/or LE. Why was no real information, or so little concrete information given out to help with his search?

I know antiquated LE thinking is to keep all information to themselves, but had they really wanted to find him, at some point, wouldn't they have let the public know as much as possible? It could not harm the "investigation," as defenders of this tactic like to claim.

I don't believe he walked away. Unless someone comes up with a compelling reason, it doesn't make any sense. And where would he be hiding and how?

For my thinking, there is something being "overlooked," but it is purposeful and deafening. Perhaps the only thing I can think of is to go back to the very beginning to review who was involved, who controlled the investigation, what was released, and what exactly happened during those first weeks, and then months after the computer and hard drive were found.

I have no doubt most of that information has been documented here.

I don't remember when scent or tracker dogs were brought in. Was it only days after he was reported missing? Were they tracking dogs, air scent dogs, or both? TIA

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped

I don't remember when scent or tracker dogs were brought in. Was it only days after he was reported missing? Were they tracking dogs, air scent dogs, or both? TIA

Bloodhound for the parking lot and elsewhere. Cadaver dog for the river searches (and possibly elsewhere).

LE has taken the position that foul play is the least likely.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

This obviously is not RFG, but I am citing it to show that bodies generally do show up in the Susquehanna: http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/in...found_in_susquehann.html#incart_river_default

 

[PPKik]

Snipped



Bloodhound for the parking lot and elsewhere. Cadaver dog for the river searches (and possibly elsewhere).

LE has taken the position that foul play is the least likely.

I didn't know about foul play being the least likely by LE, while I believe it is the most likely. Thank you for answering about the search dogs.

Do you know the time period they brought in cadaver dogs for the river searches (and possibly elsewhere)? Was it close to the period (within weeks) when he was reported missing?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I didn't know about foul play being the least likely by LE, while I believe it is the most likely. Thank you for answering about the search dogs.

Do you know the time period they brought in cadaver dogs for the river searches (and possibly elsewhere)? Was it close to the period (within weeks) when he was reported missing?

The cadaver dog was brought in toward end of the week starting 4/18.

There have been enough statements from them, which are being mentioned in the anniversary blog, that they have been saying least likely.

I didn't say I agree.

 

[BigCat]

<respectfully snipped for space>


I don't believe he walked away. Unless someone comes up with a compelling reason, it doesn't make any sense. And where would he be hiding and how?

The same can be said for foul play, IMO. Who murdered him? Why? How? Where was he murdered and where is his body?

When Occam's Razor is applied -- "Entities are not to be multiplied beyond what is necessary" -- walk away is most likely. Again, my opinion.

Let's hope I'm right.

On the search, you raise some interesting questions. I can't speak on what occurred at the inception of the investigation; however, I will say that I have my doubts that anyone in authority really wants to know what happened to RFG right now. On that point, let's hope I'm wrong.

 

[shadow of my mind]

First, welcome to this thread.

There was no account of RFG being at Raystown on 4/13/15. I believe he was at work. It was 4/14. He was at a prison board meeting earlier that day that adjourned at 8:50 AM, though there was subsequent discussion of a grievance. He was seen at the boat landing there between 10:30 and 11:00 AM. That is consistent with the rest of the day's witnesses, who place him in the office in the early afternoon and in the park in the late afternoon.

There were witnesses that put RFG in the Mini, in the parking lot, where the Mini was found, and where his scent was detected. There were also witnesses who saw the Mini parked in the lot later on 4/15 and on the day of 4/16. That doesn't prove it was there overnight.

With the dog, and with looking at the search pattern, RFG being in Lewisburg, these are consistent with RFG arriving in Lewisburg just after lunch on 4/15/05, when the first witnesses spotted him. I think it there proof beyond a reasonable doubt that RFG was in Lewisburg in the afternoon of 4/15/05.

There were no unknown prints in the Mini. There were several unreadable prints in the Mini that lacked sufficient ridge characteristics to determine who left those prints. That does indicate the car was not wiped down, but it does not preclude someone wearing gloves.

RFG had asked people, including a defense attorney, about how to get rid of the data on his drive and did purchase software to do that; I wish I could shed more light on which defense attorney than I am currently. He also had done computer searches on how to destroy a drive within 30 days of his disappearance. At least one witness saw RFG sitting in the Mini with the laptop in Lewisburg. (That may not be related to his disappearance.)

The laptop, which was definitely RFG's, was found in proximity to the bridge on 7/30/05, minus the drive. The drive was found in excess of 100 yards upstream in 9/05. It fit his laptop, but, unlike the laptop, its registration numbers were not recorded. It was found within 75 yards of a spot where multiple witnesses had seen RFG park the Mini on 4/15.

Thank you for the welcome and the information

BBM

I have no problem with the assumption that he was in fact in Lewisburg the afternoon of 4/15. Officially the last independently verified sighting is the night before because of surveillance footage. LE will always take that over any eye witness that is why it’s the official last time he was seen.

Something that has not been explored and I'm not even sure how it could be at this late date, but what if RG actually did leave Lewisburg, very late in the afternoon/early evening to return home.

It sound like PF and him had a fairly routine night schedule and it would be plausible that he would not be concerned with getting home exactly when she got home because he knew she would be going to the gym. This way he could miss all of the rush hour traffic.

Something could have happen to him during the return trip. If someone (that unknown bad guy) followed him on the return trip that would eliminate someone from having to know of his plans to go to Lewisburg in the first place.

Under what exact circumstances someone would be able to get RG separated from his car then would be the question.
If he had left his vehicle, say to help another motorist who seemed in need of assistance that could be one way that he could have been snatched, badly beaten, killed and tossed off into the ample woods that are in the area.

RG could have pulled off the road to take a wiz and was ambushed. A different scenario, but it will also get him out of the car. How many logging trails or hunting shack lanes are in the area?

Maybe the unknown bad guy was looking to jack that nice mini, and afterwards saw the laptop and noticed the properly sticker of the Centre Valley Court and decided it would mean a lot of boys in blue would be out looking for that car so it would be better to just return it to the same lot where he followed him from, toss the computer, cross his fingers and skedaddle.

No one from his past, no crazed former convict just a random act of violence, perpetrated by some non-human.

Purely a speculator theory and admittedly with a whole lot of holes, but it is a new and different way to think about things.

There are three different routes from Centre Valley to Lewisburg, and he would not necessarily have to have taken the same road back as he went down on. I have no idea how many ways there are out of Lewisburg that would connect you to those three routes to return.

I know that LE had patrol cars and a chopper out checking the route that he said he had taken down but they were looking for him in the vein of some type of auto accident along the way. They were not looking for a car that was possibly hidden if only for the night.

Ok, that's enough out of me for awhile

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped a bit

Thank you for the welcome and the information

BBM

I have no problem with the assumption that he was in fact in Lewisburg the afternoon of 4/15. Officially the last independently verified sighting is the night before because of surveillance footage. LE will always take that over any eye witness that is why it&#8217;s the official last time he was seen.

There was at least one person that knew him who saw him on the way there, in Centre Hall.

It sound like PF and him had a fairly routine night schedule and it would be plausible that he would not be concerned with getting home exactly when she got home because he knew she would be going to the gym. This way he could miss all of the rush hour traffic.

They usually went out to dinner on Friday nights.

Under what exact circumstances someone would be able to get RG separated from his car then would be the question.
If he had left his vehicle, say to help another motorist who seemed in need of assistance that could be one way that he could have been snatched, badly beaten, killed and tossed off into the ample woods that are in the area.

RG could have pulled off the road to take a wiz and was ambushed. A different scenario, but it will also get him out of the car. How many logging trails or hunting shack lanes are in the area?

Maybe the unknown bad guy was looking to jack that nice mini, and afterwards saw the laptop and noticed the properly sticker of the Centre Valley Court and decided it would mean a lot of boys in blue would be out looking for that car so it would be better to just return it to the same lot where he followed him from, toss the computer, cross his fingers and skedaddle.

Nothing in the car indicated an ambush; no cleaning. Also, why would RFG take the laptop and why would the perp toss it, drive separated. Carjackings are not exactly common in the area.

There are three different routes from Centre Valley to Lewisburg, and he would not necessarily have to have taken the same road back as he went down on. I have no idea how many ways there are out of Lewisburg that would connect you to those three routes to return.

I know that LE had patrol cars and a chopper out checking the route that he said he had taken down but they were looking for him in the vein of some type of auto accident along the way. They were not looking for a car that was possibly hidden if only for the night.

Ok, that's enough out of me for awhile

I think they checked both 192 and 45 from Centre Hall and working east. I-80 has cell coverage.

That is another factor, the cell phone was not on in Lewisburg; it didn't interact with the towers. He had voice mail, so he could have checked periodically. No checks in Lewisburg.

Again, as his fingerprint was on the outside of the window, the car was not washed. There was no evidence that his car was forced off the road.

Why drive the car back to Lewisburg?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The same can be said for foul play, IMO. Who murdered him? Why? How? Where was he murdered and where is his body?

When Occam's Razor is applied -- "Entities are not to be multiplied beyond what is necessary" -- walk away is most likely. Again, my opinion.

Let's hope I'm right.

On the search, you raise some interesting questions. I can't speak on what occurred at the inception of the investigation; however, I will say that I have my doubts that anyone in authority really wants to know what happened to RFG right now. On that point, let's hope I'm wrong.

One possibility is that the PSP has the case because of the link to Sandusky. They may be trying to locate him as a witness or at least explain his absence.

 

[charminglane]

Way out there thought -

What if RG knew he had a child somewhere?
His adopted daughter would not have to share any inheritance if he disappeared and no one knew.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Way out there thought -

What if RG knew he had a child somewhere?
His adopted daughter would not have to share any inheritance if he disappeared and no one knew.

My understanding is that he could designate beneficiaries. He could disinherit the hypothetical second child.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Since this has been mentioned and we have some new people, here are some site photos: https://picasaweb.google.com/LookingforRay

 

[poppygirl]

I don't think he killed himself.

I do think he destroyed the hard drive...perhaps after all his research, he concluded that the only way to guarantee that the hard drive was truly wiped clean was to actually destroy it. Not being a techie, I would come to the same conclusion. But why is the bigger question? What was on it that he would go to such great lengths to destroy? This is what I've been thinking about as I believe the answer to that would give us great insight into what happened next.

It could be as simple as he had been planning to disappear and knew there was evidence on the hard drive that would give him away. But then why let his last known whereabouts be the place so near where he tossed the hard drive that it was likely to be found?

The random stranger idea has some merit...though unlikely, it's possible. Maybe he had other reasons for destroying the laptop...perhaps he meant to toss the hard drive and return home, report the laptop as stolen, but met with foul play by some random evil doer on the way...again, possible not probable.

Then there's the mystery woman and ashes indicating he at least had contact with someone else.

Big mystery - but I do believe that it was Ray and only Ray that destroyed the laptop hard drive.

 

[MamaJoJo]

I have been reading this thread for years but have never commented. How is it possible, with all of the diligent sleuthing done on RFG's case, that more is not known of what happened to him?! I'm just in awe of you all and hope that missing piece is found someday.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

New blog up on the anniversary: http://www.centredaily.com/2014/04/15/4135644/nine-years.html?sp=/99/236/704/694/

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped.

I don't think he killed himself.

I do think he destroyed the hard drive...perhaps after all his research, he concluded that the only way to guarantee that the hard drive was truly wiped clean was to actually destroy it. Not being a techie, I would come to the same conclusion. But why is the bigger question? What was on it that he would go to such great lengths to destroy? This is what I've been thinking about as I believe the answer to that would give us great insight into what happened next.

First, I think, beyond a reasonable doubt, RFG was alive and in Lewisburg until at least 5:30 PM on 4/15/05.

Second, I think, beyond a reasonable doubt he tossed that laptop/drive. It might not be related to his disappearance, however.

RFG had used the laptop as a home computer and probably had private things on it, that he didn't want to share with others. Mundane things like financial data and possibly private notes on employees.

It is possible that he went to Lewisburg for some other reason and decided that it was a good place to toss the drive. He could reported it stolen, but I think more likely he'd report that it was an accident, it fell into the water.

I am not convinced it is related to his disappearance.

It could be as simple as he had been planning to disappear and knew there was evidence on the hard drive that would give him away. But then why let his last known whereabouts be the place so near where he tossed the hard drive that it was likely to be found?

It took them 3 months to find the laptop and another 6-7 weeks to find the drive. The drive was not close to the laptop, but at least 100 yards upstream. They were tossed from different places.

Then there's the mystery woman and ashes indicating he at least had contact with someone else.

For me, those are probably the biggest pieces of evidence for foul play, and even those are not strong.