PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #12

[Trackergd]

A period of ONE DAY would make the difference between " no scent detected" in any area other than where the car was parked and all the places at which Mr. Gricar was " seen" by witnesses?
I would have to see field trial data on the difference in a 24 hour period with same to very similar weather conditions, and one location at least being indoors and thus sheltered from weather elements.

Either the car search was or is being misinterpreted, or he doesn't seem to have left any trace of himself for a scent dog to find in ONE DAY. How does a mere mortal do this? I don't believe the two stories mesh well at all. Something's OFF about the dog story.

AND as I asked my fellow posters --What would be the result of the scent dog hitting on particulate matter ( dust composed of skin cells, etc) from the CAR and not from the physical presence of Mr. Gricar in the SOS parking lot?
This would seem to be possible if someone from LE opened a door or the trunk to the car door shortly before the scent dog was in the same location, I would imagine, from my knowledge of molecular biology. However, since I lack knowledge of scent dogs in the field, I cannot assume to presume.

Again, there should be data available from control tests done with the dogs and handlers OR in other cases which substantiate any answers. I am not certain we have the completely correct answers. No disrespect meant to anyone, but if there was any staging done in Lewisburg, then this could be how we narrow it down from a shop parking lot to a crime scene.

Where a scent can be detected, blood hounds are far and away very reliable. Where the dog has difficulty is where the scent has been contaminated by other animal scents, overwhelming varying human scents and such things as auto exhaust. It is very possible that in areas where there was little to no contamination, the bloodhound was on track but lost the scent where there was heavy contamination such as in the park and the SOS etc... I have seen an experienced this on more than one case. Little Lauren's trail petered out when she hit the main road where the auto exhaust was very thick and had wiped out the scent trail. Two different bloodhounds checking the trail on two different days had the same results.

 

[Trackergd]

Did any of the reported Sandusky victims live in or very near Lewisburg?

If so, was the attorney or member of the attorney's staff female?

What about a female case worker involved with any of the victims?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Self snipped

3. 5-6 prior weeks, acts unusually. Tired, distraught, unfocused.

4. On 4/14 and 4/15, drives through remote areas. 4/15, drives into areas without cell coverage. Both areas have water features, which is not unusual for Central PA.


6. 4/15/05 is not indicated to be related to any official duty, he "plays hooky." No notes or e-mails indicating a purpose for going to Lewisburg or anything else on 4/15.

Based on #4 and #6, we can rule out RFG being concerned about his physical safety causing #3.

The route between Raystown Lake has about 12 miles where it is nothing forests and farms. It would take LE some time to responded even with a call. RFG probably drove that stretch twice. It looks like from a map, that there would be about 15-20 miles without coverage each way (including part of Route 22). http://www.cellreception.com/towers/towers.php?city=state college&state_abr=pa

So, if RFG is concerned, on 4/14, about his safety, he is taking a gigantic risk. It would also be difficult (if not impossible) to follow him on this route, and not be spotted. He didn't report that there was a threat or that anyone was following him. Yet, on the morning of 4/14, he was acting unusually at the Prison Board meeting.

On 4/15, RFG, if he is meeting someone, doesn't leave any notes to where he will be or who he will be meeting. Since he did the Lewisburg search on his office computer, and was in the office on 4/14, he could have left the information there. He also chose a route that was remote, and included a cell phone "dead zone," even though there was an alternative route (I-80), that both had cell coverage and was patrolled by the PSP.

Whatever was bothering RFG, it was not a physical threat to his safety.

 

[HauntsForHope]

I get the feeling he is alive and in hiding. His failure to prosecute one of the biggest slimeballs in history lead to his need to get out of dodge. One day he will show up, under arrest somewhere like South America for pedephilia. jmo

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Did any of the reported Sandusky victims live in or very near Lewisburg?

If so, was the attorney or member of the attorney's staff female?

What about a female case worker involved with any of the victims?

Not that I have heard of. There were no civil suits prior to 2011-12.

Any caseworker would have been Bellefonte or State College.

A foster parent of one of the victims lived in Rebersburg, IIRC, which was along the route, but RFG could have stopped there and never have gone to Lewisburg. Further, if he was meeting someone involving even in a potential case, why the subterfuge of "playing hooky?"

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I get the feeling he is alive and in hiding. His failure to prosecute one of the biggest slimeballs in history lead to his need to get out of dodge. One day he will show up, under arrest somewhere like South America for pedephilia. jmo

I think that is a bit harsh.

As far as I can tell, RFG did nothing illegal or unethical in not prosecuting Sandusky. A colossal collapse judgment? Definitely. Fear of the wrath of PSU at the polls for daring to prosecute "The Great Sandusky?" Maybe. Neither is a strong reason to get out of Dodge. He'd still be collecting his pension, just like Lauro, who claims to have never read the report his own department commissioned and apparently never talked to the person who reported it to Childline.

As for pedophilia, RFG never seems to have been involved with young children, unlike Sandusky.

 

[TechWriter797]

I'm very curious about the map. Clearly Ray didn't need it. Did he email or fax it to someone he was planning to meet? Someone who wasn't familiar with the area? If so, what was the purpose of the meeting?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm very curious about the map. Clearly Ray didn't need it. Did he email or fax it to someone he was planning to meet? Someone who wasn't familiar with the area? If so, what was the purpose of the meeting?

There would be a record of the e-mail or possibly the fax. I think the recipient would be asked a lot of questions.

RFG could have been looking at the time it could take someone else to drive.

If it was an "official business" drive, he could have been looking at the mileage for reimbursement/tax purposes. It was well outside of RFG's jurisdiction, however.

Directions from State College are:

Drive north on College Avenue. Turn right at Pleasant Gap, then turn left at the traffic light at Centre Hall.

Or

Take Atherton Street east. Turn left at Route 45 at Boalsburg. Drive to Lewisburg and turn left just before you come to the bridge. I'll be waiting.

From Bellefonte they are:

Drive out to College Avenue and turn right. Turn left at Pleasant Gap, then turn left at the traffic light at Centre Hall.

Or

Take Axemann Road, go through Pleasant Gap ... .

[Both alternate routes depends exactly were you are in State College or Bellefonte, respectively.]

I think any six year old in either Bellefonte or State College could tell you how to get to College Avenue. It is the main street in State College and the main connecting road in Bellefonte.

 

[Advocate1]

I have a couple questions that I have never been able to answer and have always bugged me.

1. Did PF leave work after talking to Ray that day to go let the dog out?
2. Who normally let the dog out midday everyday? This would mean either PF or Ray would have to leave work and go let the dog out and then return to work.

I would really like the answers too those questions.
Thanks

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I have a couple questions that I have never been able to answer and have always bugged me.

1. Did PF leave work after talking to Ray that day to go let the dog out?
2. Who normally let the dog out midday everyday? This would mean either PF or Ray would have to leave work and go let the dog out and then return to work.

I would really like the answers too those questions.
Thanks

Implicitly, yes to #1. She was going to do it at lunch, and no one has suggested she didn't take lunch.

#2 I think it would be normally PEF; it was her dog. It was old and sick. The note was to call her if he couldn't let the dog out.

 

[Advocate1]

I'm very curious about the map. Clearly Ray didn't need it. Did he email or fax it to someone he was planning to meet? Someone who wasn't familiar with the area? If so, what was the purpose of the meeting?

Wouldnt we all love to know the answer to that.
Interesting the map was from Bellefonte to Springfield so the person needing the map was familiar with Bellefonte. I believe the map is significant for other reasons also in my opinion Ray had plan to meet someone in Springfield that day
This meeting was planned inadvance and Ray was the one at least initially in control of the plans. They were meeting at a place Ray was familiar with, but that he had also searched for directions too. Ray didnt need directions but someone did.
Ray had been looking into "how to fry a hardrive" and "water damage to hardrive" the only thing missing that he chooses to take to this meeting was the company issued laptop with the hardrive he wanted to fry. The laptop and hardrive turn up near the meeting spot in the river with extensive water damage. In my opinion Ray didnt take the laptop case because he didnt plan on the laptop ever coming back. I only wish I knew if he planned on coming back or not.

 

[Advocate1]

I think its interesting that it was not a secret that Ray had been wanting to know how to erase his hardrive in his company laptop. He had mentioned this to different people in the months prior. Yet he arranges a meeting with someone and tells no one and even goes as far as supposedly lying to PF that day and the only thing he takes is his company laptop that he has made known he was interested in frying the hardrive for some reason. It just doesnt make sense that he would take the laptop with information he obviously felt was sensitive enough he wanted to make it disappear forever and go meet someone he did not trust. No way, Ray was smarter then that. I think the person he met was someone he not only trusted but also may of been seeking their advice as too some very sensitive info he had stumbled upon. What I dont know is the character or integrity of this person. Did Ray make a mistake in seeking their advice and trusting them with some highly sensitive information? I honestly dont have an opinion as too what happened to Ray. I will say if he was killed it was by someone he trusted to share the very information he wanted to delete from his hardrive. It would of had to be some real serious **** that Ray was never suppose to have known and once he shared his knowledge of the information he had to be eliminated.

 

[Advocate1]

By the way just because Ray didnt bring charges against JS doesnt mean he stopped digging for information. Ray was known to be bothered by crimes involving sexual violence and your crazy if you think after hearing about the shower incident that Ray wasnt highly bothered by this information.
I can see why its easy to believe Ray may of just chose to walk away and anyone that cant is missing the bigger picture in all this. Im not saying I believe he chose to walk away. Im just saying its a understandable theory. I dont see Ray easily letting something like the JS's information just go. What I do see is Ray digging and finding some connections he wished he never would of and that became a big problem for Ray. He likely did not know who to trust with this information and he wanted to erase his hardrive because he did NOT want ANYONE else to know he was aware of this information. I have no doubt that whoever Ray chose to trust and meet that day did one of two things
They either turned on him and decided he knew too much and eliminate him or they told him he needed to disappear for good.

 

[BigCat]

This is what we know about Gricar's actions in the last year or so before he disappeared:

1. No specific saving for retirement, but announces retirement. Relatively low assets, in both 2004 and 2005.

2. Wants to destroy whatever is on the laptop. Asks about it about a year before, but does the searches within 30 days of the disappearance on his home computer.

3. 5-6 prior weeks, acts unusually. Tired, distraught, unfocused.

4. On 4/14 and 4/15, drives through remote areas. 4/15, drives into areas without cell coverage. Both areas have water features, which is not unusual for Central PA.

5. Generates the map to Lewisburg on office computer.

6. 4/15/05 is not indicated to be related to any official duty, he "plays hooky." No notes or e-mails indicating a purpose for going to Lewisburg or anything else on 4/15.

I assume you were familiar with the political situation in Centre County at the time. Was his retirement announcement unexpected? Was he considered a lock to win, if he had run? Is it possible information related to Sandusky would be used against him by a political opponent? I know you addressed that question somewhat when you discussed the possibility of Karen Arnold winning the D nomination. I'm specifically asking would someone use the information to force RFG to retire. It's hard to believe the race for Centre County DA would get that dirty, but I thought I would ask.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It wasn't Springfield, which is south west of Philadelphia. It was Lewisburg.

I think just about any resident of Bellefonte could get to Lewisburg without directions.

LE has said that there was no indication RFG was working on the Sandusky case, and there were no Sandusky files in the office. RFG did not have the laptop until 5-6 years after declining the Sandusky case.

All the stuff the University Police had was archived in the files at PSU and were intact.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I assume you were familiar with the political situation in Centre County at the time. Was his retirement announcement unexpected? Was he considered a lock to win, if he had run? Is it possible information related to Sandusky would be used against him by a political opponent? I know you addressed that question somewhat when you discussed the possibility of Karen Arnold winning the D nomination. I specifically asking would someone use the information to force RFG to retire. It's hard to believe the race for Centre County DA would get that dirty, but I thought I would ask.

No, he was not a lock in my estimation. In 2001, RFG had run against a defense attorney, Bob Bascom, in the R Primary. Bascom got about 45% of the vote, with RFG getting 55%. That 45% is exceptionally unusual in an R primary against an incumbent office holder at the county level, especially one holding office for 16 years.

I have often thought that the reason RFG had chosen to retire in 2005 was poor performance in 2001.

There were some problems that Gricar had mid term, including being sanctioned by judge for improper contact with a defense expert witness.

As for "dirty" there was a website that was titled "Gricar Must Go." You can read a description of it here: http://www.centredaily.com/2009/07/14/2396563/not-everybody-loves-raymond.html

I do not think RFG was a shoe in for renomination. I also thing he was surprised JKA was on the ballot. [She did win the Democratic nomination.]

Edit: Here is the GMG archived site: https://web.archive.org/web/20040413161636/http://gricarmustgo.com/Information.html

 

[Advocate1]

Implicitly, yes to #1. She was going to do it at lunch, and no one has suggested she didn't take lunch.

#2 I think it would be normally PEF; it was her dog. It was old and sick. The note was to call her if he couldn't let the dog out.

Im more interested in knowing if there was an established routine regarding someone going home everyday at lunch to take the dog out.

The story given that morning by PF was that it was a normal morning and at some point Ray had mentioned he was going to take the day off. So obviously Ray was awake that morning and had been communicating with PF. So then why would PF need to leave Ray a note asking him to call if he couldnt take the dog out? Why wouldnt she have simply just said this to Ray that morning??

I have never believed the whole dog story in regards to what was relayed during that last phone call.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Im more interested in knowing if there was an established routine regarding someone going home everyday at lunch to take the dog out.

Yes, the dog, Honey, was old and ill and someone had to let it out. She died several months later.

The story given that morning by PF was that it was a normal morning and at some point Ray had mentioned he was going to take the day off. So obviously Ray was awake that morning and had been communicating with PF. So then why would PF need to leave Ray a note asking him to call if he couldnt take the dog out? Why wouldnt she have simply just said this to Ray that morning??

RFG went back to sleep, according to PEF.

I have never believed the whole dog story in regards to what was relayed during that last phone call.

Well, it was old dog that was sick. It is interesting since RFG looks like he was close to Centre Hall when he made the call. Had he delayed his departure for about a half hour, he could have let Honey out.

 

[MissJ]

It seems he had an appointed time to meet someone if he couldn't wait half an hour to let the dog out. Was it friend or foe?

 

[MissJ]

Because of the kind of people he dealt with in his work I think it is likely that he had enemies.