PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #13

[J. J. in Phila]

I should say RT 11-15 a hi way which runs into RT 45 going the other way lets see at the intersection at RT 45 and RT 11-15 you turn left so cherry st is about right there afetr turning left onto RT 11-15 stay to the far right go up 11-15 a little more a few hundred feet there should be another road there and take a right there if you go up RT 11-15 more uou will come to st marys st I do belive that no signs were marked back them as to 2005 maybe cherry st was but not the other 2 the middle one i will call the hidden one so is that one called st johns or did they take that road out that goes back into that area also at one time that was all about bare nothing in that area just a broken down shack that stood out like a sore thumb

Do you mean state route 1005? It runs into Route 15 at the hospital and continues south along the river, until it enters Lewisburg and becomes St. Anthony Street.

 

[BigCat]

I agree that, if this was a Sandusky related murder, it wasn't Sandusky.

There is a problem with the theory. It would not be unusual for a DA to meet with a senior execitive of the major employer in the county. It would not explain driving fifty miles for a clandestine meeting.

Respectfully snipped

Let me preface my response by stating that a) I don't believe it's likely that RFG was a victim of foul play and b) even if I did, these three would not top my list (though I would place them above Sandusky).

That being said, I do believe RFG would have met secretly with them, or any PSU employee claiming to have knowledge of Sandusky's crimes, even if he had to travel 50 miles to do it. Remember these quotes:

“football runs this University”

“the University would have closed ranks to protect the football program at all costs”

“I know Paterno has so much power, if he wanted to get rid of someone, I would have been gone”

Those are quotes from the Freeh report attributed to the janitor who witnessed Sandusky assaulting a boy in the Lasch building in 2000.

RFG was a smart man. I think he was aware of the potential repercussions for any PSU employee who came forward with knowledge of Sandusky's crimes. He knew any potential witness would be very nervous about meeting him. If they offered to meet him in a clandestine fashion, I believe he would have understood.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Well, look at where McQueary met AG Office agents. Yes, it was not on campus, but it was in Centre County. Lewisburg is a bit of a distance.

Second, that still does not explain why RFG did note have any reference to it. He would have been the one keeping it secret, potentially from LE.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Everything seems to point to "______ or Walkway."

The money points to "Suicide or Walkaway."

The clandestine meeting points to "Foul Play or Walkaway."

 

[Fromthedeepestjungle]

Do you mean state route 1005? It runs into Route 15 at the hospital and continues south along the river, until it enters Lewisburg and becomes St. Anthony Street.

I found it if the map is right all the times I have drove past it never knowing that street was there N8th st it goes off of 15 straight then turns and goes into that area I am not sure if current aly was ever attached to 15 I will call it a point of entry where the exit is not sure a lot of things were done in that area and I always wondered what little stream went through there I always thought it was just for run off I see grit and sand that gets build up in it in some places limestone run I see that goes all the way to the river and it goes a ways to the west and splits which some small ponds also head water pond or small lake sorry I cant agree on walk a way or the other one sue side I think someone changed into his clothes in that area I think the sent dog maybe was confused of what it was sniffing at the SOS I also think someone played the role of him the female had to have help to do it hey look around stuff is happening all around even back in 2005 who would know and even back more years

 

[J. J. in Phila]

A change of clothing should not confuse the bloodhound.

We can add, the bloodhound points to "Foul Play or Walk Away."

 

[Trackergd]

Everything seems to point to "______ or Walkway."

The money points to "Suicide or Walkaway."

The clandestine meeting points to "Foul Play or Walkaway."

And as you noted, the bloodhound points to "Foul Play or Walkaway"

Witnesses indicate he may have met one or more individuals in Lewisburg.

At one point, he had an extended wait time.

He disposed of a County owned computer and hard drive in the river after removing the hard drive from the computer.

He was deceptive towards this significant other. This was grossly unfair to his significant other and may have been one of the causes of his acting unusual...guilt.

He left no record with his office about a meeting with anyone. It the meeting had been one of an official matter, he would have left a note or informed someone were something to occur, so I think we can safely surmise that it was an "off the books" meeting, and to a degree, deceptive as he took a day off for the meeting.

He was acting unusual prior to the Lewisburg trip. Was the time period he appeared to be acting unusual between the first attempt at the lake and the Lewisburg trip?

It appears he attempted to dispose of the computer prior to the Lewisburg trip. This tells me that what was on the computer was more critical than where he disposed of it, as long as it was in water and would not be discovered for some time. Searches about hard drive data destruction support this. Not having this task performed by a professional, to me indicates more deception. When the first attempt failed, he picked a more remote spot and adjusted his plan accordingly.

I wonder if he would have made the Lewisburg trip had he been able to dispose of the computer at the first attempt? To me the route taken to Lewisburg indicates wanting to take an enjoyable last drive in the Mini. I know that if I was going to take my last ride on my Harley, I would pick a very nice stretch of road where I could safely open it up, and where I would have some wonderful views of the countryside.

 

[BigCat]

Well, look at where McQueary met AG Office agents. Yes, it was not on campus, but it was in Centre County. Lewisburg is a bit of a distance.

Second, that still does not explain why RFG did note have any reference to it. He would have been the one keeping it secret, potentially from LE.

I might believe he would secretly meet with a potential witness and not tell anyone or leave a note. It's possible. What I find incredible is that his killer would have known RFG would not leave any word where he was going or with whom he was going to meet.

RFG's killer would have been not only a criminal mastermind who made a DA completely vanish without a trace, he was also unbelievably fortune.

I think any credible play foul play theory would have to include RFG's involvement in some kind of shameful behavior. I don't see another way to explain a clandestine meeting and the killer's absolute confidence that RFG would have not told anyone about it. The idea that a soon-to-be-retired DA would go on a rogue investigation is too improbable for me to believe.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped a bit.

He was acting unusual prior to the Lewisburg trip. Was the time period he appeared to be acting unusual between the first attempt at the lake and the Lewisburg trip?

The earliest date that I have for people noticed RFG was acting unusually was March 8, 2005. I have heard some rumors it was a few weeks before that, but the court clerk, Shotts (I think that was spelling), noticed it then, and the CDT political reporter, Joseph, noticed that he seemed not to be able to answer a question about the November election the next day.

I wonder if he would have made the Lewisburg trip had he been able to dispose of the computer at the first attempt? To me the route taken to Lewisburg indicates wanting to take an enjoyable last drive in the Mini. I know that if I was going to take my last ride on my Harley, I would pick a very nice stretch of road where I could safely open it up, and where I would have some wonderful views of the countryside.

I am not sure he had the laptop with him on 4/14.

RFG liked to drive fast, and Route 192 was normally patrolled. That could have been the reason he chose that route. I would not assume it was necessarily a "last ride."

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I might believe he would secretly meet with a potential witness and not tell anyone or leave a note. It's possible. What I find incredible is that his killer would have known RFG would not leave any word where he was going or with whom he was going to meet.

RFG's killer would have been not only a criminal mastermind who made a DA completely vanish without a trace, he was also unbelievably fortune.

Yes, that is basically the same argument about nobody, other than RFG, being able to know anything off the laptop. Except for a perpetrator that was both a genius and lucky enough to win the Powerball jackpot twice, it didn't happen.

I think any credible play foul play theory would have to include RFG's involvement in some kind of shameful behavior. I don't see another way to explain a clandestine meeting and the killer's absolute confidence that RFG would have not told anyone about it. The idea that a soon-to-be-retired DA would go on a rogue investigation is too improbable for me to believe.

The most likely I could think of in that case would be a lover, though I might not characterize it as "shameful." Sometimes, partners don't object if the parties are discrete (okay, I am not one of them).

I could, however, see a "rouge investigation," but not one where RFG would have a zero paper and electronic trail even in his private files.

 

[SeekingJana]

It seems to me that sometimes, Mr. Gricar's knowledge of a situation, his intent, his comings and goings are being speculated a great deal because of the lack of a written record.
SOME people have systems of processing info which doesn't call for extensive calendar marking or extensive informal note taking.
I am extremely tired of one person's possible habitual note- taking being foisted onto Mr. Gricar's methods.

UNLESS someone here knows and can prove that Ray Gricar was a meticulous note taker and record keeper about closed files, even, or what he was doing on a day off, I think this line of thinking is not factual. It is silly conjecture.
He could have had a Palm Pilot or a Blackberry. We don't know because LE hasn't told us, if THEY know.

I am really tired of reading that " such and such didn't happen" because there were no WRITTEN NOTES found regarding the meeting, the day's events, the 14th and 15th of April in particular.
It's conjecture and it's a way to slant and manipulate, IMO.

The FACTS are simply that we don't know. We don't know if there are any " notations" on a calendar anywhere about ANYTHING, we don't know what LE might have found in the personal belongings or professional offices, we don't know much of anything. Except that a man went missing over 9 years ago and he remains missing but no remains have been ID'd.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I would not call it conjecture or anything of the sort. There simply is no reference, nothing on his desk calendar, no e-mail saying, "Meet me Lewisburg at 3:00 PM on the 15th." Nobody has said, **We can't find his BlackBerry,** but they have listed what is missing.

Yes, we do know he liked to drive and drive fast, and that his friends thought it would be reasonable for him to drive on roads that were not normally patrolled.

Intent can be determined from some actions, some intent can be ruled out by some actions. If I, for example, am wearing a jacket and tie, I am not going out for a walk.

We can determine that RFG was not worried about his safety on 4/14 or 4/15, because he traveled into lightly populated areas with minimum police coverage and limited cell reception.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Let me correct something from earlier; 192 was not normally patrolled.

 

[SeekingJana]

I would not call it conjecture or anything of the sort. There simply is no reference, nothing on his desk calendar, no e-mail saying, "Meet me Lewisburg at 3:00 PM on the 15th." Nobody has said, **We can't find his BlackBerry,** but they have listed what is missing.

Yes, we do know he liked to drive and drive fast, and that his friends thought it would be reasonable for him to drive on roads that were not normally patrolled.

Intent can be determined from some actions, some intent can be ruled out by some actions. If I, for example, am wearing a jacket and tie, I am not going out for a walk.

We can determine that RFG was not worried about his safety on 4/14 or 4/15, because he traveled into lightly populated areas with minimum police coverage and limited cell reception.

JMO, and I state opinions as such, LE has told us SO little and they may be holding quite a lot of info back. It is so wrong to believe that just because a "notation" doesn't seem to be in the public eye, then the meeting, the conversation, whatever, didn't even happen!!
To believe such is a thinking process based on what LE has NOT told us. Again, with the scientific method, which is how facts are proven, the ABSENCE of information, a PDA device, a calendar, a freaking date book like I have in my purse from Kate Spade ( Jack Spade makes them for men and has for years) doesn't mean that Ray Gricar didn't have one or his own system of notating what was important to him. It may mean that LE is holding certain critical info back. Again, my mantra: " We don't KNOW".

Maybe he remembered personal appointments and so forth very well without any device or pen and paper. My husband does this, and he is in the top 1% of intelligence as far as it can be measured.
Numbers are part of his genius. They are not important to me. I have very little use for the measure of an hour ( unless I am in pain), and very little use for things like " 2 miles, 20 miles, 200 miles" and so on. I live a Zen life. It is what it is and I will get there at the time in which I arrive.

I will say it again: For the integrity of this case, until or unless LE releases things such as cell phone records, appointments, anything at all tied to Ray's last days and hours, I think it is speculation to say he DIDN'T write things down. We DON'T KNOW!!!

This is a personal experience which might shed some light on how we process info differently.
I've sat in week- long professional conferences for continuing educational credits ( CEUs which RNs have to have for license renewal and which are boring and dumb usually) and doodled like mad from 8 AM until 5 PM (when we finally got to to go happy hour then to our hotel rooms) on notepads. I've drawn pictures, written poems, written short stories about the person sitting next to me who was seemingly always the same nerdy male RN who had a crush on me for years, you get the picture.
Unless someone had made it a point to look closely at my finely written ( cursive) ways I amused myself during extremely frustrating wastes of time and a huge waste of a heck of a lot of money, then they would have thought I was the most interested and involved person at the conference/ seminar. In truth, nothing could have been farther from the truth except in a very few cases over many years. I had mastered what they attempted to theorize.
I suspect Ray operated on the same level. Nurses who can, DO. Nurses who don't want to do, hold seminars with corporations for a huge price because we HAVE to get the approved contact hours.
Oh- I did keep all the hand out materials ( which were massive in amount) and actually got a huge promotion because I volunteered to teach the info to my then- co workers, as I attended every conference and seminar I could, hoping to gain new knowledge and learn new skills. I was their boss after that.

And another thing- not to get you started on what model cell phone Ray had or didn't have because I am certain you know, but by 2005, there were cell phones which had messaging and calendar functions. ( Ducking and running away from the fallout). :toast:

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Well, LE was upfront about his laptop, so I think they would be about any other device; same with his family.

Has LE held some stuff back? Yes, usually to the detriment of the case.

 

[MissJ]

It seems to me that sometimes, Mr. Gricar's knowledge of a situation, his intent, his comings and goings are being speculated a great deal because of the lack of a written record.
SOME people have systems of processing info which doesn't call for extensive calendar marking or extensive informal note taking.
I am extremely tired of one person's possible habitual note- taking being foisted onto Mr. Gricar's methods.

UNLESS someone here knows and can prove that Ray Gricar was a meticulous note taker and record keeper about closed files, even, or what he was doing on a day off, I think this line of thinking is not factual. It is silly conjecture.
He could have had a Palm Pilot or a Blackberry. We don't know because LE hasn't told us, if THEY know.

I am really tired of reading that " such and such didn't happen" because there were no WRITTEN NOTES found regarding the meeting, the day's events, the 14th and 15th of April in particular.
It's conjecture and it's a way to slant and manipulate, IMO.

The FACTS are simply that we don't know. We don't know if there are any " notations" on a calendar anywhere about ANYTHING, we don't know what LE might have found in the personal belongings or professional offices, we don't know much of anything. Except that a man went missing over 9 years ago and he remains missing but no remains have been ID'd.

Precisely my argument. At one time I worked with the state bureau of investigation on a suspected murder. The investigation was top secret and I was told to tell no one and take no notes. Our meetings were called "lunch". I never make lunch notes. So there were no notes whatsoever on my part. I'm sure people thought we were having an affair.

 

[Trackergd]

"Never assume you know anything or everything about a missing subject" - Me

My quote given during countless SAR and LE briefings. Based on over 30 years of "boots on the ground" searching and investigating.

The moment particular parts of an investigation become "off limits" due to personal opinions, you might as well throw in the towel. Just my opinion.

 

[BigCat]

Precisely my argument. At one time I worked with the state bureau of investigation on a suspected murder. The investigation was top secret and I was told to tell no one and take no notes. Our meetings were called "lunch". I never make lunch notes. So there were no notes whatsoever on my part. I'm sure people thought we were having an affair.

If you were told to tell no one, then someone knew about your investigation: your supreriors. No one told RFG to conduct a secret investigation. He was a prosecutor and elected official. He answered to the people of Centre County. Why was he conducting a rogue investigation independent of law enforcement?

 

[JaimeSommers]

And as you noted, the bloodhound points to "Foul Play or Walkaway"

Witnesses indicate he may have met one or more individuals in Lewisburg.

At one point, he had an extended wait time.

He disposed of a County owned computer and hard drive in the river after removing the hard drive from the computer.

RS&BBM ... We don't know it was RFG that disposed of the computer and removed the hard drive. Sure, we can speculate, but we can't state it definitively because there is no proof.

 

[Trackergd]

RS&BBM ... We don't know it was RFG that disposed of the computer and removed the hard drive. Sure, we can speculate, but we can't state it definitively because there is no proof.

I submit that the previous searches and questions by RFG about how to destroy data on a computer hard drive would account for about a 80% + probability that RFG disposed of the computer.

If you wish to argue that he handed handed a County owned computer to an unknown party or it was taken from him by force, you would have to admit the trip was rogue.