PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #13

[J. J. in Phila]

I am of the opinion that RFG would have had no problem getting a concealed weapon permit. The Sheriff would have rushed that application given it would have been for the DA.

I am also of the opinion that if RFG was concerned about his safety, he would have at the very least, left information on his desk should he not return. At best, he would have given LE a heads up.

Absolute agreement.

Tony had indicated that RFG did not like guns, so could understand him not wanting one.

Something dire was eating at RFG.

Maybe not anything specific. All of this could be a sign of depression.

It just isn't a sign of foul play.

 

[SeekingJana]

Near death experiences are always interesting and this sounds like a worthwhile read.

The difference here is that this woman did not try to drown herself, she was in an accident and trapped.

If RFG did drown himself, that is not easy.

I have spoken to two doctors and an ME's investigator about drowning, in a suspicious death case that was personal to me.

I was told, in all instances, that drowning is a rare and difficult way to kill yourself, unless you tie yourself and/or weigh yourself down. The body's natural response kicks in a makes you expel water and breathe, so without some other aide, like weights and ropes, or a fall from a high bridge, it is very difficult to go out and just drown yourself, and most suicidal people don't chose that method.

It's a bad way to go.

I know RFG's brother was parked next to a river and found dead downstream. I have never known how he actually died, only that his death was ruled a suicide.

I've never seriously considered suicide to be a viable option for his demise.
Short= sighted of me, I know, but it's impossible for me to believe he wouldn't seek help, turn to Patty and Lara and let them know he was having problems...

Yes, I agree that it would be very hard to intentionally drown one's self. I thought about doing it in our pool once to frame my husband for murder. ( To say we don't get along would be an understatement). My planning included lots of duct tape wrapped completely around my head, wrists and ankles. At which point I decided he wasn't worth the Herculean effort, and certainly not worth the dying for.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

We do have several factors that could point to suicide:

1. RFG was acting unusually.

2. The low assets could indicate estate planning or just some financial problems. The do not indicate a guy saving for retirement.

3. Family history/genetics.

In general, from what I have seen, RFG was not someone to run to doctors. It is possible he was suicidal.

There are also strong arguments against it, like seeming to want to leave the house before letting the dog out. I've never heard of anyone having to kill himself on schedule. The 4/16 witnesses argue against it. No body. The scent trail argues against it.

 

[Trackergd]

J.J.

With the week of the 4th approaching, could you pull up and post a Google Map view and mark the area you and others suspect to be a high potential with regard to the suicide theory? I want to take a day and hit the area on foot.

Thanks!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

If I did this right, here is the link:

https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=zxhV5K0J1jyo.k0j3v_NcQq5w

The light red area is the area where I would suggest the primary search. The light yellow area is a secondary search area.

The red pin is where the Mini was found.

The blue pins are the right of way for the abandoned railroad. The purple pin is for the old canal bed. Those were both chosen because they would be easy to walk, even in twilight conditions. Note that the streams and highways would be the same.

I do not know the dynamics of some of the ponds associated with the quarry (in the red area). In strict terms of suicide, I would doubt that his remains would have remained submerged for 9+ years.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

On 6/17/14, the Discovery ID cable channel will be rerunning the episode on RFG titled "A Family's Curse." It will be on at noon, EDT.

I just wanted to give everyone a heads up. It is "much watch television" for anyone interested in the RFG case.

 

[shadow of my mind]

On the subject of “change in behavior”
What could cause his change in behavior? I thought I would do a simple outline of possible reasons. Some of them have been discussed at length in the previous threads and some sporadically or not at all. Sorry for the length of this post, but once I started to think about it, things kept popping into my mind. And by the way, these are not in any particular order; I just tried to lump like things together. I’m sure there are other ideas that can be added to this list.

How or if they would play into scenarios and known information for:
Foul play (if you exclude some unknown serial type killer/stalker random nut)
Walk away
Suicide (which in my opinion is the least likely)

I.---- Dealing with information that is personal
Connected to someone that is dear to your heart would be one reason to possibly affect you enough to show different behavior, but not to say anything or feel comfortable to discuss with someone.
I. 1 Adoption
I. 1.A. Learning information concerning something about the adoption process of his daughter.
I. 1.B. Learning information concerning the birth parents, or other close relatives of the birth parents of his adopted daughter.
I. 1.C. Someone who is connected to his adoption of his daughter has made contact with him.

I.2. The Girlfriend
I. 2. A Information concerning his live-in girlfriend that would lead to an investigation in his professional life.
1.2. B Information concerning his live-in girlfriends past that could reflect negatively on his professional legacy or current personal plans.
1.2. C. Information related to his live-in girlfriend that would put his personal future in jeopardy.

I. 3 Brothers death
I. 3. A Information concerning his brother’s death; possibly cause or have potential for the case to be re-opened.

I.4. Health
1.4. A Information that impacts his life; a serious illness ending in physical or mental incapacitation or death.

I.5 Past Wives
(This is a long shot and extremely improbably but thought it should be added to the list.)

I.6 Trouble Concerning Other Family Members
I.6.A Health concerns about family from overseas.
I.6.B Safety concerns about family from overseas

II
Connected to a past case that upon receiving this information makes it undeniable that your actions or lack thereof resulted in tremendous harm and suffering or dealing with information that is connected to a current case that would have a direct impact on your life, would both be a reason to possibly affect you enough to show different behavior, but not to say anything or feel comfortable to discuss with someone.

It would take a good deal of digging into court cases to even come up with a viable list, and even then, not knowing all of the details that the DA’s office would have, coming up with anything that would make something plausible would be a huge job and one that would have to be done pretty much locally, as far as court records go.

There have been a few names thrown out already, the two most popular I have already put down, but again without good solid information if would be difficult to exclude or for that matter include anyone, except in a very general way…. But hey, that hasn’t stopped anyone on WS from having a go out it anyway.

There has also been some mention of a few staff members who had issues. The question is when, what and if they were something that would have been of a serious enough nature to bring into question any cases that had been handled by them or give reason for disciplinary actions. Example: Someone has handled drunken driving cases and then is found out to be a habitual user, caught driving under the influence themselves, but was able to barter, buy or bribe their way out of any consequences.

II.1 Learning about something in regards to someone who has been already convicted of a crime.

II.2.A Drug Ring taken down
link: http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/press.aspx?id=86
II.2 Learning about something serious in regards to a co-worker or staff member.

II.3 Learning about something that would cause others to question RG work ethics or abilities
II.3.A Sandusky

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I think we can cross adoption off the list. She was about 26 at the time of the disappearance. It would not be something, at that age, that could be damaging to a child. She had known that she was adopted. She was also more than 2000 miles away.

Girlfriend was almost as weak. She was a probation officer, and had lived in Centre County all her life. Except when she was at PSU, about 12 miles away, she lived in Bellefonte all her life. Her late uncle had been Mayor of Bellefonte and her cousin is County Treasurer. One brother works at PSU (not in athletics), while another is scientist at Oak Ridge.

Brother? He never even expressed any doubts that it was suicide to Roy's children. No suggestion of new information, and it was 9 years prior.

He had not spoken to Emma, according to her, since 2001-02. He was in contact with Barbara, but she did not seem to have any problems. I expect her to be better off than he was, financially. Professionally, she was, even in 2005, at her peak. (Yes, I looked.)

No political problems involving Slovenia in 2005. I'm not too sure it he even had monthly contact with his distant cousins.

No health problems, according to LE. No fatal or debilitating diseases.

I'd like to deal with the second part separately.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped for length.

II
Connected to a past case that upon receiving this information makes it undeniable that your actions or lack thereof resulted in tremendous harm and suffering or dealing with information that is connected to a current case that would have a direct impact on your life, would both be a reason to possibly affect you enough to show different behavior, but not to say anything or feel comfortable to discuss with someone.

It would take a good deal of digging into court cases to even come up with a viable list, and even then, not knowing all of the details that the DA’s office would have, coming up with anything that would make something plausible would be a huge job and one that would have to be done pretty much locally, as far as court records go.

There have been a few names thrown out already, the two most popular I have already put down, but again without good solid information if would be difficult to exclude or for that matter include anyone, except in a very general way…. But hey, that hasn’t stopped anyone on WS from having a go out it anyway.

About the only thing that would really create a problem would be if RFG did something illegal. Even something just unethical, he was not planning to practice in 8 months.

There has also been some mention of a few staff members who had issues. The question is when, what and if they were something that would have been of a serious enough nature to bring into question any cases that had been handled by them or give reason for disciplinary actions. Example: Someone has handled drunken driving cases and then is found out to be a habitual user, caught driving under the influence themselves, but was able to barter, buy or bribe their way out of any consequences.

II.1 Learning about something in regards to someone who has been already convicted of a crime.

II.2.A Drug Ring taken down
link: http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/press.aspx?id=86
II.2 Learning about something serious in regards to a co-worker or staff member.

II.3 Learning about something that would cause others to question RG work ethics or abilities
II.3.A Sandusky

At least two ADA's had "problems," that came out later, but we don't know if they had these problems in 2005. One, however, was on sick leave.

RFG was not prosecuting the drug ring case; the AG's Office was.

Anything, including Sandusky, could damage RFG's reputation, but that would be hollow damage indeed. He was not planning to run for anything or to practice law. The only thing, in this regard, that could seriously damage RFG is if he did something illegal. Even something unethical would not change his status.

He did not have to worry about a civil suit; he was covered under the County's master policy.

The eliminates some of those things, but not all of them.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

One thing that could be added is financial concerns/reversals.

 

[Trackergd]

Thanks for the picture J.J.

 

[shadow of my mind]

Just for general information purposes:

Pennsylvania's top prosecutor plans to release a report next week into how police and prosecutors handled the Jerry Sandusky case. Attorney General Kathleen Kane said today that Geoff Moulton's review will be released Monday morning at a Capitol news conference.
Source: http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/bre...attorney_generals_1.html#incart_river_default

 

[SeekingJana]

On 6/17/14, the Discovery ID cable channel will be rerunning the episode on RFG titled "A Family's Curse." It will be on at noon, EDT.

I just wanted to give everyone a heads up. It is "much watch television" for anyone interested in the RFG case.

Did you watch? I forgot.
Wondering if they re-edited anything this go-round.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Did you watch? I forgot.
Wondering if they re-edited anything this go-round.

Yes, it was the second version, with the Sandusky reference.

For those who have not been following the case and the media, this episode of Disappeared first aired on 2/28/11 and was taped in the late summer/early fall of 2010. That was prior to the Sandusky scandal becoming public. They did a second version, adding a few minutes on RFG's role in the scandal.

I was not happy with one edit they did of Tony, where it looked like he was referring to the scandal, even though it was probably taped probably 6 months before the first mention of the scandal in the press.

BTW, there is a new blog up: http://www.centredaily.com/2014/06/20/4233709/voluntary-versus-involuntary.html?sp=/99/236/704/694/

I don't think there is anything particularly new in it, but it frames some of the issues.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I made a minor (no pun intended) discovery regarding the Hells Angels angle.

On 4/15/14, WJAC did an anniversary story and mentioned it. They said that the supposed hiding spot for the body was along the Susquehanna. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92i8k8XBgHI

Nothing was found, of course. However, that does not match the story BB told on the radio. There was no Quarryville along the Susquehanna, the closest is about 9 miles, and Bucks county is not even in the Susquehanna watershed.

My guess is BB source was wrong, or he (the source) was giving multiple stories.

 

[hopingicanhelp]

So strange, I was JUST thinking of this case today; been out of the loop for a while and trying to catch up while time allows -- and lo and behold, reliable J.J. has posted something -- thank you! Made updates much easier to find!

 

[MissJ]

Well, If RFG went to Slovenia he is probably regretting it.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Well, If RFG went to Slovenia he is probably regretting it.

Why?

Here is the latest NYT story on Slovenia: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/22/travel/with-wind-calm-serenity-in-slovenia.html?_r=0

Unless you hate the currently good weather, good food, and good wine, it sounds like a good place.

 

[Trackergd]

We do have several factors that could point to suicide:

1. RFG was acting unusually.

2. The low assets could indicate estate planning or just some financial problems. They do not indicate a guy saving for retirement.

3. Family history/genetics.

In general, from what I have seen, RFG was not someone to run to doctors. It is possible he was suicidal.

There are also strong arguments against it, like seeming to want to leave the house before letting the dog out. I've never heard of anyone having to kill himself on schedule. The 4/16 witnesses argue against it. No body. The scent trail argues against it.

RBBM. That part keeps sticking in my brain. Why would RFG not be saving for retirement? And if not, where did all the money go? We did not see anything in the financials that would explain the discrepancy between income and any financial planning, and considering his thrifty personality, that's more than a little odd.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

RBBM. That part keeps sticking in my brain. Why would RFG not be saving for retirement? And if not, where did all the money go? We did not see anything in the financials that would explain the discrepancy between income and any financial planning, and considering his thrifty personality, that's more than a little odd.

The obvious reason is, he wasn't planning to be there to spend it in retirement.

A second reason could be bad investments, i.e. he lost a lot of money.

Both would point to a voluntary act.

2004 showed no single source income, other than his salary. It wasn't sitting in a $60 K CD.

"Where" is a deeper question.

I have indicated that there was also capital gains, as he complained about having to pay capital gains taxes. (I can go into a more detailed explanation of how that would work

Some of that could be tied to his divorce, but it was listed as an "equitable settlement." EG got the house, and it had increased in value. There was probably an offset of $35 K to $70 K, meaning that he would be able to keep $35 K-$70 in other assets.