PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #13

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  • #141
Respectfully snipped.

So I have no problem seeing RFG committing suicide or disappearing over the possible loss of his reputation. I also could see people who want him dead if they thought his death was necessary to protect their reputations. Who would want to live with being known as a person who could have stopped a child predator but didn't?

I have a two word answer to that question: Jerry Lauro. :)

Lauro, the DPW investigator, was almost in the same situation. Almost, because he actually had to meet a lower level of proof than RFG did. While RFG, at least in theory, had to answer to answer to the electorate of Centre County. Lauro was a bureaucrat, virtually immuned from political pressure.

RFG could have prosecuted Sandusky for 1998 at any time prior to his disappearance, though it would have been impractical after 2004. If he was really concerned about what people would think, why didn't he just prosecute?
 
  • #142
Respectfully snipped.



I have a two word answer to that question: Jerry Lauro. :)

Lauro, the DPW investigator, was almost in the same situation. Almost, because he actually had to meet a lower level of proof than RFG did. While RFG, at least in theory, had to answer to answer to the electorate of Centre County. Lauro was a bureaucrat, virtually immuned from political pressure.

But Lauro claims he would have charged Sandusky had he seen the reports from the psychologists:

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/03/penn_state.html

Penn State "Detective [Ron] Schreffler never shared any of these with me," Lauro said, referring to reports from psychologist John Seasock and a female psychologist. Seasock concluded that the boy was not sexually abused two days before the case was closed. The report of the female psychologist who evaluated the boy right after the incident found Sandusky was exhibiting signs of grooming a victim for sexual abuse.

"The conclusions she had drawn in her report were pretty damaging," Lauro said. "I would have made a different decision. ... It's unbelievable, and it gets my blood pressure going when I think about it."

Did someone deliberately withhold the reports from the DPW investigator or is Lauro lying? Schreffler didn't dispute the claim that Lauro never received the reports. Nevertheless, it wouldn't surprise me if Lauro is lying to protect his reputation. He wants us to believe that he would have stopped Sandusky had he known everything RFG knew.

RFG could have prosecuted Sandusky for 1998 at any time prior to his disappearance, though it would have been impractical after 2004. If he was really concerned about what people would think, why didn't he just prosecute?

If he was concerned about what people would think, why would he prosecute? He was damned either way.
 
  • #143
But Lauro claims he would have charged Sandusky had he seen the reports from the psychologists:

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/03/penn_state.html

RFG could have claimed if he just had interviewed the victim (s), it would have changed his decision.

Lauro could not charge; DPW is strictly civil, not criminal. Lauro apparently never asked for either report, and apparently never talked to the person reporting it initially.

Did someone deliberately withhold the reports from the DPW investigator or is Lauro lying? Schreffler didn't dispute the claim that Lauro never received the reports. Nevertheless, it wouldn't surprise me if Lauro is lying to protect his reputation. He wants us to believe that he would have stopped Sandusky had he known everything RFG knew.

Possibly, however, nothing would have prevented Lauro from contacting the person who reported it. Chambers. Likewise, Seasock was brought in at the request of DPW.

If he was concerned about what people would think, why would he prosecute? He was damned either way.

I'll agree that there would be an element, either way, that would criticize RFG either way. That happened with a lot of his cases. Why would this one be any different? The Grove case was obviously a no win for him. Same with the Rosengrants case. Same with the Phillips case.

Sandusky was different, somehow. Even if it straight that he was worried about his next election, after 2001, there would be no future elections.

We're missing something.
 
  • #144
Respectfully snipped

I'll agree that there would be an element, either way, that would criticize RFG either way. That happened with a lot of his cases. Why would this one be any different? The Grove case was obviously a no win for him. Same with the Rosengrants case. Same with the Phillips case.

Those cases didn't involve Penn State football (or I assume they didn't. I'm not familiar with them. You can correct me if I'm wrong)

Sandusky was different, somehow. Even if it straight that he was worried about his next election, after 2001, there would be no future elections.

Strictly my opinion, I have a feeling that RFG, at some point, realized he was going to be made the scapegoat for the failure to prosecute Sandusky in 98, so he decided to walk away rather than go down with a fight. If that's the case, I don't necessary blame him. Who would want to spend their retirement under attack from the Ray Blehars of the world?

Again, just my opinion. My opinion could easily change if the facts revealed counter that opinion. (e.g., it was my opinion that Corbitt did "slow play" the investigation for political purposes; however, I acknowledge that the facts prove otherwise now).

We're missing something.

I agree 100%!
 
  • #145
Phillips was a football player, charged with rape. It took a jury of 11 women and one man less than three hours to acquit him. At least ten of the women wanted him acquitted on the first vote.

The question is, would he even care about the Ray Blehars of the world? :)

RFG and I have something in common. At some points in our lives were ere both public figures. We both get attacked.

I've seen a negative comments made over the years about RFG, while he was serving as DA. People misrepresenting his views called him all sorts of names, publicly: http://www.centredaily.com/2009/07/14/2396563/not-everybody-loves-raymond.html

I was called a "hired mouthpiece" in one newspaper article, under my own name. They guy who said it ended up looking like an idiot. That comes with the territory.

That came, and comes, with the territory.

Further, he had no idea anything would come out, ever, about Victim 6. It happened almost seven years before he vanished.
 
  • #146
Since it is a slow day here, and since I mentioned the Phillips case, I had done a blog on it, looking at some of RFG's harder prosecutions, including Phillips:

http://www.centredaily.com/2012/12/07/3427821/except-for-sandusky.html

In part, it is because he tended to prosecute these types of hard cases that Sandusky stands out.

Happy Independence Day.
 
  • #147
Happy July 4th to all Americans.
No matter what, we still live in the best country in the world.
:fireworks::fireworks:
 
  • #148
Phillips was a football player, charged with rape. It took a jury of 11 women and one man less than three hours to acquit him. At least ten of the women wanted him acquitted on the first vote.

The question is, would he even care about the Ray Blehars of the world? :)

RFG and I have something in common. At some points in our lives were ere both public figures. We both get attacked.

I've seen a negative comments made over the years about RFG, while he was serving as DA. People misrepresenting his views called him all sorts of names, publicly: http://www.centredaily.com/2009/07/14/2396563/not-everybody-loves-raymond.html

I was called a "hired mouthpiece" in one newspaper article, under my own name. They guy who said it ended up looking like an idiot. That comes with the territory.

That came, and comes, with the territory.

Further, he had no idea anything would come out, ever, about Victim 6. It happened almost seven years before he vanished.

Yes you have to learn to live with comments made about you..but it could be very damaging..There was a front page news story implying I had some sort of a connection to the governor and he had rewarded me with a huge raise as I was going through a divorce. My name was mentioned as was my salary. Hurt my divorce case. Was RFG worried about something that might have damaged his reputation? I think he might have been. I just don't think he'd give up his pension for it. I still think he was murdered. JMO.
 
  • #149
Yes you have to learn to live with comments made about you..but it could be very damaging..There was a front page news story implying I had some sort of a connection to the governor and he had rewarded me with a huge raise as I was going through a divorce. My name was mentioned as was my salary. Hurt my divorce case. Was RFG worried about something that might have damaged his reputation? I think he might have been. I just don't think he'd give up his pension for it. I still think he was murdered. JMO.

Well, I would not agree that Sandusky, just failing to prosecute either because he used bad judgment or because he didn't want to take on "the Great Sandusky," would be sufficient to cause him to kill himself or to run away. I think that is your position.

First, he had no way of knowing it would come out, ever. So far as we know, he didn't know about other incidents. Nobody has suggested his involvement in anything except 1998.

Second, so long as there was not a quid pro quo, or he found another victim and didn't report it, even not prosecuting in 1998 is neither illegal nor unethical. He was not the paladin of a prosecutor as some have depicted, but he had already been sanctioned by a judge for something, two years prior to his disappearance. The image, from an ethical standpoint, already was tarnished a bit.

Third, it would not have been detrimental to his political career or legal practice, because he wasn't planning on either. His daughter applied for retirement status in regard for his law license in 2006, in part, because he did not have continuing educational requirements. It is currently two years, so it doesn't look like it he was planning to retain it, which is consistent with his stated retirement plans.
 
  • #150
Here are some articles regarding the sanction:

http://m.collegian.psu.edu/archives/article_7c96e793-ab07-59bf-b934-03e37b0b017e.html?mode=jqm

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...6okAAAAIBAJ&sjid=w3ADAAAAIBAJ&pg=5535,5727222

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archives/article_04049209-3057-5e54-9091-c17e93cd66b9.html

It was well publicized, and Judge David Grine, who was the DA that hired RFG, recused himself. That is somewhat unusual, because in a case involving MTM, the judge stayed.

Now, after this, RFG did not resign, run away, or kill himself.

This was the low point in RFG's legal career. Electorally, he was half way through his 5th term and had had a significant primary challenge in 2001.
 
  • #151
Here are some articles regarding the sanction:

http://m.collegian.psu.edu/archives/article_7c96e793-ab07-59bf-b934-03e37b0b017e.html?mode=jqm

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...6okAAAAIBAJ&sjid=w3ADAAAAIBAJ&pg=5535,5727222

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archives/article_04049209-3057-5e54-9091-c17e93cd66b9.html

It was well publicized, and Judge David Grine, who was the DA that hired RFG, recused himself. That is somewhat unusual, because in a case involving MTM, the judge stayed.

Now, after this, RFG did not resign, run away, or kill himself.

This was the low point in RFG's legal career. Electorally, he was half way through his 5th term and had had a significant primary challenge in 2001.

Yes, I can see that it would be......this case is so perplexing. JMO. Thanks
 
  • #152
Hypothetically ----

What if RFG possibly overheard someone talking or someone told him about an incident (and did not know names) but the description and story was like deja`vu to him; it had to be Sandusky.

If it was me, and I had felt at the time I could not successfully prosecute that person, I would feel pretty rotten knowing that this man had continued with this sick behavior and damaged more children. I also would be quietly poking around to what else I could find out before I would "officially" re-open this particular Pandora's box.

How would RFG react to that possibility?

Could this be a reason for his distraction in the weeks before he disappeared? Could this also be a reason he went to Lewisburg so he could meet with someone out of Happy Valley to gather additional information? Could this also be a reason that he would have his laptop with him because he had started to build a new case against Sandusky?
 
  • #153
Snipped:

How would RFG react to that possibility?

If he thought he could not prosecute in 1998, he obviously could not prosecute based on a rumor. If he decided that Sandusky was just too big in 1998, in 2005, Sandusky was much diminished. Keep in mind that, at any time, between June 1998 and April 2005, RFG could have prosecuted on the 1998 incident.

There was no suggestion that he was revisiting the 1998 incident. Why not talk to Sloane, at least after he recovers, or JKA? Why no searches on Sandusky or TSM?

Could this be a reason for his distraction in the weeks before he disappeared? Could this also be a reason he went to Lewisburg so he could meet with someone out of Happy Valley to gather additional information? Could this also be a reason that he would have his laptop with him because he had started to build a new case against Sandusky?

It would not explain some key elements, i.e. the lack of assets and the desire to get rid of the computer. That laptop is important in this regard; we know RFG wanted to get rid of the data on it, and then looked at the more extreme measure of destroying the hard drive. Why would he keep notes for a potential prosecution on something he wanted to never see the light of day?

RFG had no problem going on campus for something in 10/98. There would be other places to meet much closer to "home" than Lewisburg. For example, when the police contacted McQueary, they met in a parking lot in State College.

There is another problem. On 4/15/05, at least some of the people involved in the case, Paterno definitely, and McQueary, possibly, were at a football practice. I would suspect that Friday was not an overly good day for most of the people there to be at a secret meeting.

At this point, with the evidence we have, I would say no.
 
  • #154
I made an attempt to get to Lewisburg this weekend. Got as far as Palmyra (to look at another case) and had to return due to the extended time spent in Palmyra. I will try again in two weeks.
 
  • #155
I made an attempt to get to Lewisburg this weekend. Got as far as Palmyra (to look at another case) and had to return due to the extended time spent in Palmyra. I will try again in two weeks.

Bring an extra wallet for some excellent antiques shopping and lunch at the Country Cupboard. [emoji164] [emoji2]
 
  • #156
Bring an extra wallet for some excellent antiques shopping and lunch at the Country Cupboard. [emoji164] [emoji2]


I would suggest the ice cream at the "Remember When" in the SoS. :)

One thing that I have been thinking is my map is primarily a "suicide map." While some of the places would be a good place to toss a body, most would be difficult, and may leave quite a trail. Even marching someone in at gun point and shooting him would be difficult. There would be a high risk of stumbling, especially after dark, even with a flashlight. However, RFG could walk to those places alone. Even if he would trip, he would have to worry about dropping a gun or someone else getting away.

RFG, however, did the same things I did, googled a map (possibly like I did); they were not quite as detailed then. He would be able to see the areas that would likely be more remote. I can understand why he wouldn't want his girlfriend to come home and find the body, but it does not make too much sense to commit suicide in such a way that his body won't be discovered for 9+ years. He was a lawyer, and was at least passingly familiar with his brother's estate settlement. He'd know that with no body his heirs would have to go to additional expense to handle things.
 
  • #157
I would suggest the ice cream at the "Remember When" in the SoS. :)

One thing that I have been thinking is my map is primarily a "suicide map." While some of the places would be a good place to toss a body, most would be difficult, and may leave quite a trail. Even marching someone in at gun point and shooting him would be difficult. There would be a high risk of stumbling, especially after dark, even with a flashlight. However, RFG could walk to those places alone. Even if he would trip, he would have to worry about dropping a gun or someone else getting away.

RFG, however, did the same things I did, googled a map (possibly like I did); they were not quite as detailed then. He would be able to see the areas that would likely be more remote. I can understand why he wouldn't want his girlfriend to come home and find the body, but it does not make too much sense to commit suicide in such a way that his body won't be discovered for 9+ years. He was a lawyer, and was at least passingly familiar with his brother's estate settlement. He'd know that with no body his heirs would have to go to additional expense to handle things.

How does the dumped computer and hard drive play into this scenario?
 
  • #158
How does the dumped computer and hard drive play into this scenario?

Something on it that he didn't want to see the light of day, if it was suicide. Something private. Maybe he kept a diary of slipping into depression. Unlikely, but possible.
 
  • #159
My original post

Hypothetically ----

What if RFG possibly overheard someone talking or someone told him about an incident (and did not know names) but the description and story was like deja`vu to him; it had to be Sandusky.

If it was me, and I had felt at the time I could not successfully prosecute that person, I would feel pretty rotten knowing that this man had continued with this sick behavior and damaged more children. I also would be quietly poking around to what else I could find out before I would "officially" re-open this particular Pandora's box.

How would RFG react to that possibility?


Your response J.J.
If he thought he could not prosecute in 1998, he obviously could not prosecute based on a rumor. If he decided that Sandusky was just too big in 1998, in 2005, Sandusky was much diminished. Keep in mind that, at any time, between June 1998 and April 2005, RFG could have prosecuted on the 1998 incident.

Prosecute on a rumor, no of course not. :) Rumors, however, often contain grains of truth and one has to do due diligence to seek out those truthful parts. Considering the difference between 1998 and 2005 of where Sandusky stood within the God-like persona of the entire PSU football family it could have been the catalysis that RFG would need to take a shot at him, and actually be winnable. Although technically RFG could have prosecuted on the 1998 incident, having an additional incident(s) and with a better chance at getting an educated jury about how grooming works in child abuse, he would virtually be able to strip any positive remaining attitude about Sandusky away.

Your response J.J.
There was no suggestion that he was revisiting the 1998 incident. Why not talk to Sloane, at least after he recovers, or JKA? Why no searches on Sandusky or TSM?

[Again hypothetically] RFG would be working on trying to substantiate a rumor. He would not be looking at the 1998 stuff. He was already familiar with that. Going on how I would go about something of this nature, I would be more inclined to not speak to anyone that would be remotely connected to PSU or the office staff about it. I also would not be documenting anything about this “rumor” where it could be easily found. In my experience, there are very few people who never ever not tell someone else something even when they are asked to keep it to themselves.

Part of my original post:
Could this be a reason for his distraction in the weeks before he disappeared? Could this also be a reason he went to Lewisburg so he could meet with someone out of Happy Valley to gather additional information? Could this also be a reason that he would have his laptop with him because he had started to build a new case against Sandusky?

Your response J.J.
It would not explain some key elements, i.e. the lack of assets and the desire to get rid of the computer. That laptop is important in this regard; we know RFG wanted to get rid of the data on it, and then looked at the more extreme measure of destroying the hard drive. Why would he keep notes for a potential prosecution on something he wanted to never see the light of day?

The issue with RFG’s lack of assets, until we have more information about possible financial losses, any established trusts or other estate planning is simply a point that cannot be fully explained.
The desire, and his very openness in that desire to get rid of data on the computer could originally very well have been just the normal wanting to make sure you don’t leave sensitive personal/and or personnel information where others can get their hands on it. Since RFG hadn’t used the laptop for work in some time, who would think that he was currently using it now. Other than PF bringing it to LE attention, did anyone else even mention the laptop? We also don’t know who actually tossed the computer and drive into the river only that is where they ended up.

Your response J.J.
RFG had no problem going on campus for something in 10/98. There would be other places to meet much closer to "home" than Lewisburg. For example, when the police contacted McQueary, they met in a parking lot in State College.

When you don’t want anyone to see you meeting with someone, you don’t meet somewhere that has a significant chance of being recognized by people who know you, even if it’s just simple recognition of your face.

Your response J.J.
There is another problem. On 4/15/05, at least some of the people involved in the case, Paterno definitely, and McQueary, possibly, were at a football practice. I would suspect that Friday was not an overly good day for most of the people there to be at a secret meeting

Again, if it were me, I would try and choose a day and time when I knew that the people/person I was gathering information about would be somewhere else. Meeting on a Friday in the early afternoon would be a great time to meet with a variety of people. Anyone with a job who may have been able to take a half day off at the end of a work week would not raise any questions work wise or interrupt any family plans. A mother with children in school would have enough time to get back to meet the bus.

The only way this would even begin to make sense is if RFG managed to attract the attention of someone (Who would that someone be?) who did not want the Sandusky case to come back into play, and then that person on the guise of helping RFG arranged to meet with him; then disappeared him.
Could RFG have been threatened enough that he would disappear himself?

Of course this is all just pure conjecture on my part to fit a hypothetical scenario that has been bouncing around in my brain in a attempt to come up with a reason why this man went missing
 
  • #160
I have a hard time believing that RFG never heard any rumors about Sandusky after 98. Sandusky wasn't supposed to be showering with boys, so the rumors didn't have to be particularly salacious to raise suspicions.

The only way this would even begin to make sense is if RFG managed to attract the attention of someone (Who would that someone be?) who did not want the Sandusky case to come back into play, and then that person on the guise of helping RFG arranged to meet with him; then disappeared him.
Could RFG have been threatened enough that he would disappear himself?

Of course this is all just pure conjecture on my part to fit a hypothetical scenario that has been bouncing around in my brain in a attempt to come up with a reason why this man went missing

Respectfully snipped

Good questions.

Another question I have is....if he was investigating (re-investigating?) Sandusky in 2005, why didn't he contact anyone in law enforcement?
 
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