PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #13

[BigCat]

And if this was an FBI operation, why were they, after nine years, still not the lead agency. Why would they yield to the BPD? Why would they yield to the PSP?

Isn't there some mention of the FBI in RFG's Disappeared episode? Maybe they aided in the financial investigation or something similarly ancillary to the main investigation. I don't remember exactly. I just remember wondering why they weren't more involved, considering this is a case involving a missing DA.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm sorry if I'm being dense but I don't get your position and I'd like to. Can you explain?

Okay, assume that RFG is going to retire at 60. Okay, the amount of his income will drop a bit (not a lot, maybe $5-10 K/year). PEF will also stop working, and will not be getting a huge pension, so there will be some decrease in their household income.

So, what is RFG going to do. Save up for retirement. Have extra money for trips, for his daughter, for household emergencies (new dryer). We would expect him to have a pretty good chuck of change there. Maybe an IRA or a 401k or just a lot of cash in a CD. There should be something along those lines.

That should, if RFG would die, be in his estate. His estate does not show that.

His financial disclosure statements show that there was not a large about of interest, less than $1300 from any one source.

In other words, it does not look like RFG was planning, financially, to retire. For someone retiring, he had very little money, based on his salary.

Now, what the explanations for that? Well, those four possibilities.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Isn't there some mention of the FBI in RFG's Disappeared episode? Maybe they aided in the financial investigation or something similarly ancillary to the main investigation. I don't remember exactly. I just remember wondering why they weren't more involved, considering this is a case involving a missing DA.

Their aid was monitoring his credit cards and checking out distant leads (in some cases). They were never the lead agency, which they probably would be if RFG was working undercover for them.

 

[MissJ]

Okay, assume that RFG is going to retire at 60. Okay, the amount of his income will drop a bit (not a lot, maybe $5-10 K/year). PEF will also stop working, and will not be getting a huge pension, so there will be some decrease in their household income.

So, what is RFG going to do. Save up for retirement. Have extra money for trips, for his daughter, for household emergencies (new dryer). We would expect him to have a pretty good chuck of change there. Maybe an IRA or a 401k or just a lot of cash in a CD. There should be something along those lines.

That should, if RFG would die, be in his estate. His estate does not show that.

His financial disclosure statements show that there was not a large about of interest, less than $1300 from any one source.

In other words, it does not look like RFG was planning, financially, to retire. For someone retiring, he had very little money, based on his salary.

Now, what the explanations for that? Well, those four possibilities.

I agree with that...but a lot of people don't. It doesn't mean (to me) that they plan on killing themselves or walking away. Just poor judgement.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I agree with that...but a lot of people don't. It doesn't mean (to me) that they plan on killing themselves or walking away. Just poor judgement.

RFG was not exactly known for poor judgment (with one potential exception). This was a guy that was planning for four years to retire and a guy known as "frugal." He was also not planning to work in retirement. He seemed concerned enough about retirement to want to destroy the data on the laptop about 18 months prior to his retirement, so this is a person with fairly detailed plans.

It does not prove that RFG was planning to kill himself or to walk away, but it does add weight to either possibility.

 

[MissJ]

RFG was not exactly known for poor judgment (with one potential exception). This was a guy that was planning for four years to retire and a guy known as "frugal." He was also not planning to work in retirement. He seemed concerned enough about retirement to want to destroy the data on the laptop about 18 months prior to his retirement, so this is a person with fairly detailed plans.

It does not prove that RFG was planning to kill himself or to walk away, but it does add weight to either possibility.

But estate planning or retirement planning doesn't start when you are ready to retire...it starts much earlier. He didn't do it for whatever reason. JMO.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

But estate planning or retirement planning doesn't start when you are ready to retire...it starts much earlier. He didn't do it for whatever reason. JMO.

There are some things that RFG could have done in terms of estate planning that would account for the low estate value.

The question is, why didn't RFG do any of those things in planning for retirement?

The most likely reason is, RFG was not planning to be there to collect his retirement.

 

[SeekingJana]

Yes, I was suggesting the possibility that it could have been undiagnosed. There is an undeniable genetic component to mental illness. (And it should be noted that both Roy's suicide and Ray's disappearance coincided with their retirements)

But even if we exclude family history, RFG was in a high risk demographic for suicide. Conversely, he was in a low risk demographic for homicide.

Bi-Polar disorder is NOT subtle. It is also not usually a disorder which is diagnosed in the later decades of a normal lifespan. It is usually, actually overwhelmingly, diagnosed in the late teens to early 20's.

Ray Gricar was NOT in a high demographic for suicide. He was 1) Employed 2) Believed to be in good and stable health, physically and mentally 3) Was in a committed relationship 4) Had raised a child to adulthood and was involved in her life, and had plans to be more involved after retirement. Every known factor in his life was STABLE and had been stable. Instability in either career or personal relationships is a huge factor in suicide. Ray had a good stable life by all accounts.
District Attorneys are NOT high risk suicide as far as occupations go.

He would have been in a higher risk category for suicide shortly after his retirement. The facts about which careers pre-dispose adults to commit suicide in the absence of any other known stress factors are all over the Internet. They have been ID'd and proven right statistically since the 1970's.

 

[SeekingJana]

We do not have a state Bureau of Investigation in PA, which is an instrument of state government. In PA that would be handled by the PSP in combination with the PA Attorney General's Office.

The FBI, which is run by the federal government, would create the same problems. They would be the investigating agency, not the BPD.

You have what every other state has. The FBI is involved on a state level in all 50 states. The field officers in each state are responsible for that particular region.
If you think the PBI has not looked into the Gricar case, then I'd say there is a 99.9% chance that you are wrong.
State Bureau of Investigation ALMOST ALWAYS defer to the proper state agency in all press conferences, announcements, and scenes of investigation.
This is protocol.
The TBI ( Texas branch of the FBI) was all over the site and investigation of the explosion in West, Texas. But- they didn't hold a single press conference. The ATF was the agency with the highest visibility because it was an explosion caused by explosive hazardous chemicals. ( And also because persons in the local Sheriff's Dept., Mayor's office, etc. were personally affected or killed in the explosion).

The agents of the state Bureaus of Investigation do their work behind the scenes UNLESS the investigating body asks them to take over, or UNLESS a federal crime has been committed. Once the ATF announced that they could not identify a definitive reason for the explosions in West, Texas, the TBI has been investigating other causes--- behind the scenes and in a low key manner. There are so many other examples of how a state Bureau of Investigation has solved specific crimes that I am at a loss as to how to explain something so basic, yet so large and pervasive.
I've had 2 agents in my home in the past 5 years as I was a witness to something, not a perpetrator. I was not to tell who I met with nor why. Again, they are in all areas of investigation. I'm thankful for them. Each of us should know about our State Bureau of Investigation and the important role it plays in solving crimes and stopping terrorism before we ever know about it in most cases.

 

[MissJ]

You have what every other state has. The FBI is involved on a state level in all 50 states. The field officers in each state are responsible for that particular region.
If you think the PBI has not looked into the Gricar case, then I'd say there is a 99.9% chance that you are wrong.
State Bureau of Investigation ALMOST ALWAYS defer to the proper state agency in all press conferences, announcements, and scenes of investigation.
This is protocol.
The TBI ( Texas branch of the FBI) was all over the site and investigation of the explosion in West, Texas. But- they didn't hold a single press conference. The ATF was the agency with the highest visibility because it was an explosion caused by explosive hazardous chemicals. ( And also because persons in the local Sheriff's Dept., Mayor's office, etc. were personally affected or killed in the explosion).

The agents of the state Bureaus of Investigation do their work behind the scenes UNLESS the investigating body asks them to take over, or UNLESS a federal crime has been committed. Once the ATF announced that they could not identify a definitive reason for the explosions in West, Texas, the TBI has been investigating other causes--- behind the scenes and in a low key manner. There are so many other examples of how a state Bureau of Investigation has solved specific crimes that I am at a loss as to how to explain something so basic, yet so large and pervasive.
I've had 2 agents in my home in the past 5 years as I was a witness to something, not a perpetrator. I was not to tell who I met with nor why. Again, they are in all areas of investigation. I'm thankful for them. Each of us should know about our State Bureau of Investigation and the important role it plays in solving crimes and stopping terrorism before we ever know about it in most cases.

Thank you.

 

[MissJ]

There are some things that RFG could have done in terms of estate planning that would account for the low estate value.

The question is, why didn't RFG do any of those things in planning for retirement?

The most likely reason is, RFG was not planning to be there to collect his retirement.

For 30 plus years?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

For 30 plus years?

According to him, for at least the prior four years. He said it was always the plan.

 

[SeekingJana]

For 30 plus years?

OMG, you are right!! I started to work as a RN when I was 19 years old. I went to work with a very large corporation of hospitals, the largest in the country at the time. We had to attend meetings about their retirement plan, as it truly was one of the premium plans in the nation. A person could not contribute to it until age 25 when I was below the age of 25. I think it was changed later on..
So for 6 years, I did this sad hand- wringing over not being able to contribute to my retirement plan. When I turned 25, you'd better believe I contributed because the long- term payoff was unbelievably high. ( I think that's why the corporation went out of business, ultimately).
I know nurses, personally know and worked with them, who retired as millionaires because of contributing a very small amount every 2 weeks to that retirement plan.
And my own son's father is having his astronomical long term care costs paid for by funds from his retirement plan with the same corp., of which he was an executive.

 

[BigCat]

Bi-Polar disorder is NOT subtle. It is also not usually a disorder which is diagnosed in the later decades of a normal lifespan. It is usually, actually overwhelmingly, diagnosed in the late teens to early 20's.

I never stated that RFG was bi-polar. I stated that he possibly suffered from mental illness, which would include depression. There is some anecdotal evidence that he was possibly depressed.

Ray Gricar was NOT in a high demographic for suicide. He was 1) Employed 2) Believed to be in good and stable health, physically and mentally 3) Was in a committed relationship 4) Had raised a child to adulthood and was involved in her life, and had plans to be more involved after retirement.
District Attorneys are NOT high risk suicide as far as occupations go.

He would have been in a higher risk category for suicide shortly after his retirement. The facts about which careers pre-dispose adults to commit suicide in the absence of any other known stress factors are all over the Internet. They have been ID'd and proven right statistically since the 1970's.

White male + pending retirement + family history = high risk, IMO.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I don't like to but it this way, but I must.

For anyone claiming that there is a "Pennsylvania Bureau of Investigation" please post a link to its website. There is a Bureau of Investigation in the Pennsylvania Attorney General's Office (AGO), but that office has steadfastly refused to take the case.

As for the FBI being the lead agency, they never have been. For 8 1/2 years, it was the Bellefonte Police Department.

If this is best foul play theory, then there can be no doubt that RFG was not a victim of foul play. (I don't think it is the best scenario, however.)

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I never stated that RFG was bi-polar. I stated that he possibly suffered from mental illness, which would include depression. There is some anecdotal evidence that he was possibly depressed.



White male + pending retirement + family history = high risk, IMO.

There is a lot of anecdotal evidence that something was bothering him, which could include depression.

The genetics may be the key, and they have RFG's DNA.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is the article, from 1/15/2004 on RFG's retirement: http://m.collegian.psu.edu/archives/article_204d4f62-7c4d-5379-8d0e-f85de597d553.html?mode=jqm

Some of the key quotes are:

"I have always wanted to retire at 60; that has been my plan from the start. And it was very hard to keep my retirement a secret, believe me."

He announced it with just under two years left in his term. The terms are four years, and if he would run (and win) again, he would still be out of office by his 65th birthday.

Now, I have wondered how much the 2001 Primary influenced that decision, but he would not have to make his decision until March of 2005.

He also said, "I want to get used to life without an alarm clock, not having to wake up and just enjoying things that I haven't had time for."

 

[SeekingJana]

I don't like to but it this way, but I must.

For anyone claiming that there is a "Pennsylvania Bureau of Investigation" please post a link to its website. There is a Bureau of Investigation in the Pennsylvania Attorney General's Office (AGO), but that office has steadfastly refused to take the case.

As for the FBI being the lead agency, they never have been. For 8 1/2 years, it was the Bellefonte Police Department.

If this is best foul play theory, then there can be no doubt that RFG was not a victim of foul play. (I don't think it is the best scenario, however.)

Never said they were the lead agency. You know I didn't.

Read THIS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_bureau_of_investigation

"From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A State Bureau of Investigation (SBI) is a state-level detective agency in the United States. They are plainclothes agencies which usually investigate both criminal and civil cases involving the state and/or multiple jurisdictions. They also provide technical support to local agencies in the form of laboratory or record services.
An SBI is a state's equivalent to the Federal Bureau of Investigation. The SBIs investigate all manner of cases assigned to them by their state's laws and usually report to theirstate's attorney general, or in some cases to their state's governor.
SBIs can also exist either independently or within a Department of Public Safety (which is an umbrella agency coordinating and/or controlling the various state level law enforcement agencies) or a state police force (which is a general law enforcement agency)." End quote.



See? It's what I said, using the names for the state agencies, which do differ from state to state as the listing I didn't copy shows.
Nothing about teaching you about your state's bureau of investigation has anything to do with " proving a murder theory". You made that part up .I don't KNOW what happened to Gricar, but I am sure the people who investigate in PA for the PA Bureau of Investigation have worked on the case in various ways. It doesn't mean they know anything more than we know, or that foul play was involved.
But this man was a sitting DA. He was elected to prosecute criminal cases in Centre County PA when he disappeared. He deserved and deserves the best possible investigation in case he was killed.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Pennsylvania does not have one, except within the Attorney General's Office. Not all states have the same agencies.

Texas, for example, has three elected Railroad Commissioners; Pennsylvania doesn't, though we have railroads. We don't a Commissioner of the General Land Office, either.

We have the Pennsylvania Attorney General's Office and the Pennsylvania State Police. For 8 1/2 years, neither one had the Gricar had the Gricar, though they both assisted the lead agency, the Bellefonte Police Department.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped a bit.

Never said they were the lead agency. You know I didn't.

Read THIS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_bureau_of_investigation

First, if you will note the list of state agencies, and go down to PA, it mentions two agencies, the PSP and the PA AGO.

Second, if RFG was working under cover for either or both agencies, it would not have taken either one of them 8 1/2 years to take the case as the lead agency.