PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #16

[Trackergd]

Here's my problem with the suicide theory. It is obvious and generally agreed, not only on this website, but on many others that a body in the river would have eventually been discovered. Decomposition gasses eventually cause the body to float. The river level was low, there are two dams (not counting the inflatable one) that would have been prevented the body from moving down river and there are a ton of fishermen and boaters. Hanging has a very low probability as to get to any sizable woods to have the privacy for the act would have required walking across the bridge to the other side and then at least a half hour walk into the nearest large body of woods, all the while carrying a rope long enough for the job. I've walked the area, so I know how long a hike it would have been. Poison, overdose or self inflicted firearm wound would have also required a secluded spot, else the body would have been discovered rather quickly by hikers, hunters or by the rather strong smell. The small wooded strip on the far side of the river is not as overgrown as you would expect. It's all cleared with benches and other items that appear to be related to excursions. The only remote spot is the quarry on Rt 405, and that is as good an argument for homicide and hiding a body as it is for suicide.

 

[bykerladi]

You're presuming his body would be somewhere near the car.

 

[Trackergd]

You're presuming his body would be somewhere near the car.

For suicide, yes. I don't buy suicide with an assistant to drive RG to an acceptable spot as the assistant could be charged with a felony if he/she knew what was planned. In 50+ years of SAR, I have never been involved in a search for a body where the individual used an assistant to drive them to the suicide spot. Most folks would try and talk a friend that would trust them that much out of committing the act. I would also hazard a guess that a taxi driver would have reported dropping someone off in the middle of nowhere once the story broke in the media.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

For suicide, yes. I don't buy suicide with an assistant to drive RG to an acceptable spot as the assistant could be charged with a felony if he/she knew what was planned. In 50+ years of SAR, I have never been involved in a search for a body where the individual used an assistant to drive them to the suicide spot. Most folks would try and talk a friend that would trust them that much out of committing the act. I would also hazard a guess that a taxi driver would have reported dropping someone off in the middle of nowhere once the story broke in the media.

So would someone who picked up a hitchhiking RFG and dropped him in the middle of nowhere.

 

[bykerladi]

In theory he could've walked quite a distance. But I just don't see that as likely.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

In theory he could've walked quite a distance. But I just don't see that as likely.

It depends what you mean by "quite a distance."

A man from Lewisburg walked from his home, several miles into the woods, and committed suicide by hanging. His remains were found in less than a year.

 

[bykerladi]

A healthy person can walk quite a few miles in a few hours. It wouldn't be more than a few miles to reach a more isolated area I don't think.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

A healthy person can walk quite a few miles in a few hours. It wouldn't be more than a few miles to reach a more isolated area I don't think.

Yes and no. There is a very good chance of the body being found, after 14 years.

There is also a good chance that someone would have seen him walking.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It is possible for someone to hide a body. The body of a woman murdered in 2003 was just found in a storage unit: Brenda L. Jacobs has been missing since 2003. Philadelphia police may have found her remains

 

[PaulR]

Lack of a body after nearly 15 years !

Pat Collins disappeared in 1986. Bones were found in 1988 but not identified as him until 2013.

One of the reasons this took so long as circumstances - he went missing in Virginia, and the bones were found in New York. There was nothing tying Pat to NY (except both cities being on Amtrak routes.)

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Pat Collins disappeared in 1986. Bones were found in 1988 but not identified as him until 2013.

One of the reasons this took so long as circumstances - he went missing in Virginia, and the bones were found in New York. There was nothing tying Pat to NY (except both cities being on Amtrak routes.)

Well, a number of us have looked at the data bases for bodies that could match RFG, and were discovered after 4/15/05.

Another factor is that, except for a bus, there is no public transportation out of Lewisburg. The bus would involve other people seeing him.

 

[PaulR]

Well, a number of us have looked at the data bases for bodies that could match RFG, and were discovered after 4/15/05.

Another factor is that, except for a bus, there is no public transportation out of Lewisburg. The bus would involve other people seeing him.

True, but FWIW, Pat Collins almost certainly took Amtrak, and nobody stepped forward saying they saw him, even though at least one of the lines (Charlottesville to DC) should have been pretty busy.

I'm not sure about State College, but most of the college towns I've lived in when I went to school also had smaller bus services that made runs to nearby large cities. This was common on weekends, kids going back to see their families on Friday and coming back Sunday. Some also made runs to airports if the local airport was very small. They weren't operated by major bus companies.

If Ray wanted to commit suicide and not be found by means of going somewhere far from PA, I don't think it would be very difficult.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

True, but FWIW, Pat Collins almost certainly took Amtrak, and nobody stepped forward saying they saw him, even though at least one of the lines (Charlottesville to DC) should have been pretty busy.

I'm not sure about State College, but most of the college towns I've lived in when I went to school also had smaller bus services that made runs to nearby large cities. This was common on weekends, kids going back to see their families on Friday and coming back Sunday. Some also made runs to airports if the local airport was very small. They weren't operated by major bus companies.

If Ray wanted to commit suicide and not be found by means of going somewhere far from PA, I don't think it would be very difficult.

There is just one company, and I think two stops per day; there is no airport or passenger trains.. RFG was in Lewisburg, which is also a college town, but a much smaller one.

One of the main differences is age. RFG would stick out in a group of college students.

 

[skoogmagoo]

Just had a sudden hunch that Ray is alive and well.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Just had a sudden hunch that Ray is alive and well.

It is probable, but "probable" is not proof.

While I think that it is likely that RFG left voluntarily, I cannot rule out homicide.

 

[cricket49]

Will we ever know what happened?

 

[minazoe]

I would almost venture an SK like IK but, too many things going on, indicating at the least , some kind of stresses or worisome situation ..people don't just drive out to another town and find a lake to dispose of a hard drive from a work computer, it's just not normal.

they don't just leave town to dispose of a hard drive to never be seen again. I think the odds that he suffered an unrelated random demise are nil. mOO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I think it will be known to those in LE, but possibly not to the general public.

 

[cricket49]

I think it will be known to those in LE, but possibly not to the general public.

So are you leaning toward walk away?

His lack of assets with a high income makes me wonder if he had been stashing money for years.

 

[PaulR]

So are you leaning toward walk away?

His lack of assets with a high income makes me wonder if he had been stashing money for years.

Even then, some forensic accounting would make short work of this. The money wouldn't add up. If he was getting direct deposit (sometimes required), he'd have to be pulling out a lot of cash that would not equate with the lifestyle he was living. Which could mean a lot of things in isolation (not RG in particular) - drugs or other illegal activity, loading up on Krugerrands at the local coin store, etc.

Of course the police could know this and not be divulging it. If RG voluntarily left the country to live somewhere else, that's his right.