PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #16

[GarAndTeed]

I found something I don't think has been seen. It is an article from CNN in 2015: What happened to Ray Gricar? | GantNews.com

There is something in it that I think is disturbing, MOO. It is this line: "Lara declined to comment, and investigators said they’ve had trouble reaching her."

I can understand her not wanting to talk to the press, but not being involved with investigators?

<sticking toes cautiously back in water>
J.J., how do you interpret this? Do you think she avoided speaking to investigators because she had/has info she doesn't want to be questioned about? Or is there another reason (maybe she's hurting, angry, etc.)?

 

[SeekingJana]

I found something I don't think has been seen. It is an article from CNN in 2015: What happened to Ray Gricar? | GantNews.com

There is something in it that I think is disturbing, MOO. It is this line: "Lara declined to comment, and investigators said they’ve had trouble reaching her."

I can understand her not wanting to talk to the press, but not being involved with investigators?

I think it's a compilation of 2 different actions.
1) She declined to speak to the press.
2) Investigators said they've had trouble reaching her- BUT it does not say that Investigators did NOT reach her, just that she had not informed the BPD of a new address and name change, phone number, etc.


ETA: The article was written 4 years ago, and I've known where she worked and a few other general things since then. It is my opinion that Lara is NOT hard to find. If the Investigators can't find her and really want to talk to her, then they should get themselves a case together and subpoena her!!!
FBI could locate her in 5 minutes or less.

Respectfully, IMO.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

<sticking toes cautiously back in water>
J.J., how do you interpret this? Do you think she avoided speaking to investigators because she had/has info she doesn't want to be questioned about? Or is there another reason (maybe she's hurting, angry, etc.)?

I can only speak for myself, but if I had a close relative or friend that could have been the victim of foul play, I would want to do everything I could to stay available to the police. I suspect that she doesn't think it was foul play.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I think it's a compilation of 2 different actions.
1) She declined to speak to the press.
2) Investigators said they've had trouble reaching her- BUT it does not say that Investigators did NOT reach her, just that she had not informed the BPD of a new address and name change, phone number, etc.

That's my take on this because I've never had any problem whatsoever knowing that she's alive, well, and seems to be thriving. I don't stalk at all, but I always hope she's fine, because she's Ray's only child.

Respectfully, IMO.

This was the PSP; they had the case in 2015. If I was in that situation, I would stay available. I'm thinking of the husband and daughter in the Heist disappearance. After 11 years, the police never had any trouble contacting the family. I've heard it said RFG thought that his brother's death was not suicide and would call the police to ask about any leads.

I can understand why she doesn't speak to the press.

 

[GarAndTeed]

Was Lara initially given a polygraph? When was she last questioned? I'd think/hope LE would be easy on her, no matter what, but especially immediately following RFG's disappearance...
I seem to recall reading that there had been some tension and/or an estrangement between LG & RFG... is this correct, and, if so, does anyone know why?
Thanks!

 

[SeekingJana]

I can only speak for myself, but if I had a close relative or friend that could have been the victim of foul play, I would want to do everything I could to stay available to the police. I suspect that she doesn't think it was foul play.

Agree about her doubting it was foul play. She left the area at a young age, went to college, made an adult- appropriate life on the other coast, and that's home to her now.
If my daddy had gone away when I was 21 or so, I'd be very worried, for a while. As an adopted daughter myself and also an only child, I think I'd mainly feel extremely hurt after a time, and I'd likely feel some shame that he'd just disappeared if he still held an important state office, as both our dads did. Putting myself in LG's place, I think this is likely what happened with her, as well.

I also strongly believe her source of communication is and has been her mother, who of course lives in a nearby area of PA ( or did when the article was written). I'd not choose to talk to LE if my mother could go in and talk to them. LG wasn't even around when he disappeared. They have no right to contact her for a fluff piece or a sound bite with the expectation that she'd want to talk about the same old, same old..

I have a feeling LG felt about the local LE like her dad regarded them. I wouldn't give them ANYTHING without a subpoena.

Why would they need to talk to her off the record?
If she learned well from her dad, they'd find out it's not going to happen, not ever. Get the court order and have an officer deliver a summons to appear. Then, she'd show up with an attorney. Innocence is NOT protection any longer in many cases. Proper use of legal representation is.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Was Lara initially given a polygraph? When was she last questioned? I'd think/hope LE would be easy on her, no matter what, but especially immediately following RFG's disappearance...
I seem to recall reading that there had been some tension and/or an estrangement between LG & RFG... is this correct, and, if so, does anyone know why?
Thanks!

She was polygraphed in September 2005. Except for 1-2 interviews with the press, and her "appearance" in court, that is all I know of.

I don't how "estranged" they were, or the cause. I think her mother had custody of her after the divorce c. 1992. LG left the area in 1997. It is well known that she had a snowboarding accident in CA, and RFG flew out to be with her. They did in contact with several phone calls per week.

People look at demeanor, and LG's demeanor is not that of someone who wants to find her father's killer. It could be the demeanor of someone who thinks her father committed suicide. It could be the demeanor of someone who thinks her father left voluntarily. It could be the demeanor of someone who didn't want her father's killer found, though I don't see that in LG's case.

 

[GarAndTeed]

She was polygraphed in September 2005. Except for 1-2 interviews with the press, and her "appearance" in court, that is all I know of.

I don't how "estranged" they were, or the cause. I think her mother had custody of her after the divorce c. 1992. LG left the area in 1997. It is well known that she had a snowboarding accident in CA, and RFG flew out to be with her. They did in contact with several phone calls per week.

People look at demeanor, and LG's demeanor is not that of someone who wants to find her father's killer. It could be the demeanor of someone who thinks her father committed suicide. It could be the demeanor of someone who thinks her father left voluntarily. It could be the demeanor of someone who didn't want her father's killer found, though I don't see that in LG's case.

I agree about LG's demeanor; in the photos she always seemed "off" to me- couldn't put my finger on it, but yeah, not anxious or emotional as much as kind of behind an invisible wall, if that makes any sense at all.
Edited to add: not passing judgement on LG.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped.

I also strongly believe her source of communication is and has been her mother, who of course lives in a nearby area of PA ( or did when the article was written). I'd not choose to talk to LE if my mother could go in and talk to them. LG wasn't even around when he disappeared. They have no right to contact her for a fluff piece or a sound bite with the expectation that she'd want to talk about the same old, same old..

Her mother was not RFG's wife when he disappeared. LG is the one with access to everything, because she was the administrator.

I can understand her not wanting to talk to the press; I can understand if the trip back for the hearing was too expensive. She could stay in contact with the PSP by email.

 

[SeekingJana]

This was the PSP; they had the case in 2015. If I was in that situation, I would stay available. I'm thinking of the husband and daughter in the Heist disappearance. After 11 years, the police never had any trouble contacting the family. I've heard it said RFG thought that his brother's death was not suicide and would call the police to ask about any leads.

I can understand why she doesn't speak to the press.

In theory, I understand how and why you feel that way.
In practice, life isn't like that.

I believe that survivors of a traumatic event which has no finite ending in sight, which this would be, who move far away from the state where something bad happened recover easier and quicker from the trauma than those who have physical reminders every day. She may have extremely negative feelings regarding PA LE. PSP, whomever. It's PA, where he disappeared.
I'd invite my mom, who is her only lifelong close family member to visit me, and I'd make it clear why I would never go back.

IMO, unless you have incurred a traumatic event such as disappearance of a loved one in the state your parents resided in and you mostly grew up in, and had reason to mistrust the LE in that state, you'd likely have a much easier time if you moved far away and built a completely new life. It's very understandable to me, because it's what I did.

If you stay in the same state of residence for all your life, you can't really understand the joy of moving and choosing all new friends and discovering all new favorite places that have NOTHING to do with the reminders of the past, which really may hurt very deeply. It's hard to describe, because you don't really realize the burden that's lifted until you get settled into a new geographical area where no one knew your parents, or your cousins or uncle, or school mates, etc. Where your dad's name isn't whispered, where your family's " status" doesn't matter at all.
Huge relief to let go of the past, get away, and find new joys in life. She was at just the right age and stage of life to do so with a free spirit and positive mindset.

It's an immense healing action to leave " home" behind when there's emotional trauma involved with the area. He disappeared from PA.
Ha, just realized, Ray may have felt the exact same way.. after all, he may have left voluntarily too.

 

[SeekingJana]

This was the PSP; they had the case in 2015. If I was in that situation, I would stay available. I'm thinking of the husband and daughter in the Heist disappearance. After 11 years, the police never had any trouble contacting the family. I've heard it said RFG thought that his brother's death was not suicide and would call the police to ask about any leads.

I can understand why she doesn't speak to the press.

Why, in the 21st century, with all our portable comm., do you think it's necessary to linger behind?
I don't know of the case you mention, but again, if the disappearance happened years ago, that's a whole different set of parameters than we currently have at our fingertips, literally. She's young, she's connected.

 

[GarAndTeed]

As an adopted daughter myself and also an only child, I think I'd mainly feel extremely hurt after a time, and I'd likely feel some shame that he'd just disappeared if he still held an important state office, as both our dads did. Putting myself in LG's place, I think this is likely what happened with her, as well.

Agree completely, SJ. Only child here, adopted by stepmother (mother died when I was very young)...I can't imagine Lara not feeling horribly hurt. And that's a helluva lot to try to handle at any age, let alone in your early 20s.
Questions/ thoughts are zipping through my mind; it's all jumbled, but I'll try to sort it out & get back here later...
One quick question: did LG know/know of Barbara (sorry, can't recall last initial); and was RFG possibly seeing her on the side during his first marriage? I'll explain when I can get my thoughts in order...
Thanks!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I had a loved one suffer an MI and then became his legal guardian; that was trauma. That is part of the reason I am saying this. It was necessary to reached easily. That was prior to e-mail and cell phones.

This isn't a question of having to come into the office when it is 2,500 miles away. This is just communications. It is a lot easier to stay in contact today.

The Brenda Heist case ended in 2013, and her daughter was putting out tweets about it.

 

[GarAndTeed]

Why, in the 21st century, with all our portable comm., do you think it's necessary to linger behind?
I don't know of the case you mention, but again, if the disappearance happened years ago, that's a whole different set of parameters than we currently have at our fingertips, literally. She's young, she's connected.

IMO, the hurt doesn't go away. You're not consumed by it like you were initially, but I don't think it's realistic to ever be "free" of it. Sure, go on with your life, but don't expect to not miss your loved one or never have a smell, a date (birthday, anniversary of loss, whatever) trigger tears. I don't want to stay in the constant grief, but I can't expect myself to be able to "let go"- and I wouldn't expect it of anyone else.

 

[SeekingJana]

Agree completely, SJ. Only child here, adopted by stepmother (mother died when I was very young)...I can't imagine Lara not feeling horribly hurt. And that's a helluva lot to try to handle at any age, let alone in your early 20s.
Questions/ thoughts are zipping through my mind; it's all jumbled, but I'll try to sort it out & get back here later...
One quick question: did LG know/know of Barbara (sorry, can't recall last initial); and was RFG possibly seeing her on the side during his first marriage? I'll explain when I can get my thoughts in order...
Thanks!

Thank you for understanding the feelings of hurt.
For those of us like Lara and myself, who were adopted as infants in private adoptions, we realize that people are doing what they're still doing with Lara.. calling her Ray's adopted daughter. It might have happened to you as well, being called something other than a " daughter".

It is extremely hurtful to be referred to as " the adopted daughter" and not " his only child" or "his beloved daughter".
No one's ever referred to me as my parents' adopted daughter except my parents themselves, who were so happy to have a daughter through adoption. I didn't like it at all when I was very young, and I'd ask them to please not do that, but they didn't see it from the same point of view.
Then it all changed, probably because we moved away from the town they lived in at the time I was adopted when I was 12 years old. Because of the move, I spent most of my growing up years without the adjective, which is a bit off-putting in this era of extremely blended families who have chosen to be a family out of choice.

She was/ is his daughter who happened to come to be his and Barbara's through the process of adoption. She always knew they had wanted a baby, and she filled their home with love and life, and they gave her their love, time and attention, as well as the benefit of their combined vast knowledge in diverse subjects. Because they were both highly educated and well-spoken, she likely was never referred to as " our adopted daughter", either.

When he became a missing person and his case was highly publicized, I really hated that she was given the label of " adopted daughter". What possible difference could it make if their DNA was shared or not?
Love is love, and she and I and millions of other adopted adults know we were wanted very much by our parents. Not our adopted dad, or adopted mom, but " Dad" and " Mom".

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Agree completely, SJ. Only child here, adopted by stepmother (mother died when I was very young)...I can't imagine Lara not feeling horribly hurt. And that's a helluva lot to try to handle at any age, let alone in your early 20s.
Questions/ thoughts are zipping through my mind; it's all jumbled, but I'll try to sort it out & get back here later...
One quick question: did LG know/know of Barbara (sorry, can't recall last initial); and was RFG possibly seeing her on the side during his first marriage? I'll explain when I can get my thoughts in order...
Thanks!

In 2015, she would have been 37 or 38 years old. She is not a kid.

If you are thinking of Petito (her name has been published), they met when RFG was involved in "Spring Dawn" (Dawn Birnbaum) murder case. The murder occurred in March of 1993. By that point, RFG was either getting, or had been granted, a divorce.

 

[GarAndTeed]

delete

 

[GarAndTeed]

In 2015, she would have been 37 or 38 years old. She is not a kid.

If you are thinking of Petito (her name has been published), they met when RFG was involved in "Spring Dawn" (Dawn Birnbaum) murder case. The murder occurred in March of 1993. By that point, RFG was either getting, or had been granted, a divorce.

Thanks, J.J.!!!

 

[GarAndTeed]

In 2015, she would have been 37 or 38 years old. She is not a kid.

Yeah, J.J., but with ALL due respect, she was pretty young when this happened; that's what I was referring to (although I reserve the right to not make sense at times)!

 

[SeekingJana]

I had a loved one suffer an MI and then became his legal guardian; that was trauma. That is part of the reason I am saying this. It was necessary to reached easily. That was prior to e-mail and cell phones.

This isn't a question of having to come into the office when it is 2,500 miles away. This is just communications. It is a lot easier to stay in contact today.

The Brenda Heist case ended in 2013, and her daughter was putting out tweets about it.

Yes, you had enormous responsibility very suddenly at a very young age, and it was an extremely shocking occurence for the two of you. I in no way meant to disregard your experience but you rarely discuss this type of thing , so I keep it as private communication between us.

I can see how her not being available immediately has a different meaning for you than it would for me, and for most other people who haven't had the situation you found yourself and your dad in. I'm sorry that I didn't realize you were speaking from your own personal history.

As far as we know, Ray's not in a facility, or needing legal and practical day to day decisions made for him, in addition to the type of care and the love you showed your dad in a great time of need.

We don't really know what was meant by " Law enforcement had difficulty contacting her'.. Maybe THEY had been given updated info and didn't change it in all the forms, computer files, etc related to his case.
Maybe she was exploring the Himalayas with a tough little Sherpa guide, and couldn't be reach, literally at that specific point in time.
I believe she is a very adventurous person, so my example is not really hyperbolic.

I think we likely should be respectful of her privacy and just leave it as a comm. difficulty which, as I have pointed out several times , her mother could easily have remedied by either telling the PSP that she was in Bora Bora, if she was, or Tibet, if she was, and then giving her the message to contact the state investigator at a certain phone number when she was off the mountains or out of the sea..
I have a feeling that's how it was resolved.

The PSP apparently did contact her or she contacted them to at least verify that she's not missing, not gone, or in danger, which actually could be a concern because of her dad's disappearance with no idea if he was in danger, or left to have a life adventure, or what.

As far as I know, it's been stated at various times that she wasn't easily accessible, was very private, and I want to respect that.
The media and possibly the PSP were not kind to her in their incomplete reporting, IMO. If she ever hindered anything related to his case, I'm unaware of it. They could have remained silent and tried other avenues to contact her.
I tend to believe she is a free spirit, a very independent woman with strong ideas, from what I've read, and it's possible she just didn't think to contact the PA State Police when she moved, or went on an extended sojourn.
After 10 years, she had no reason to think she was a key piece of his missing person case, wouldn't you agree?