PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #16

[J. J. in Phila]

Oooh, very intriguing thoughts, J.J. Who really wants to go to the office after hours for that long unless they absolutely have to? I wonder if any analysis of activity/tasks of his work computer that evening of 4/14 was done - emails, files saved like Word docs, etc. - presuming he never used that computer again, it would be fairly easy to see if files were created, at least. My Office stuff shows when documents were last edited. If nothing created or edited, then maybe we assume files were deleted?

Another point towards hiding, covering tracks.

I could not say for sure that he was using his laptop. I know that, at least before 4/15, RFG had generated a map to Lewisburg on his computer and had checked the weather online for both Lewisburg and Raystown Lake. He checked a third location according to a source I have, but I don't know if it is accurate statement. Raystown was 4/14, late morning, so it is unlikely that he did that on the evening of 4/14.

RFG was known to have gone or stayed at the office to work late. He didn't come into the office the next day, so it wasn't something pressing. Monday, he might have had to have taken over for an ADA to question one witness. That is it, and that is four days away.

The police have indicated that there was no "meet me in Lewisburg" communication on the office computer. That would not prevent phone calls.

That said, it could be related to his disappearance.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

This also perplexed me. I also question the possible link of the judge from wellsboro pa. I will have to look up the specifics. But, IMO that whole situation was glossed over. And State College seems to forget. You know what happens when we forget about history? It repeats itself.

A disappearance? It would be Tioga County.

They only have one CP Court judge and three district judges.

I don't recall anything, but I would like to hear more.

 

[Justsayn]

I was looking on and off all day for it. Yes, it is Tioga County. There was suppose to be a link between the Centre county disappearance, The Sandusky, and the judge from Wellsboro. I will have to ask my sister his name. But, supposedly he had a pond on the property and the anonymous caller stated their was a body in there. I am also very curious about the Jolene Witt murder in lycoming county.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I was looking on and off all day for it. Yes, it is Tioga County. There was suppose to be a link between the Centre county disappearance, The Sandusky, and the judge from Wellsboro. I will have to ask my sister his name. But, supposedly he had a pond on the property and the anonymous caller stated their was a body in there. I am also very curious about the Jolene Witt murder in lycoming county.

The judge in the Sandusky case was John M. Cleland, from McKean County; he is a native of McKean County as well. Wellsboro is in Tioga County. John Cleland - Ballotpedia The worse thing that happened to him was that slipped on the ice a few years ago and injured his arm or shoulder. There was no connection between him and RFG, other than that the both went to school in Ohio, at different schools about 90 miles apart.

Jolene Witt was 10 years old in 1997, when she was murdered. The DA thinks it was the girl's uncle, who committed suicide before he was to be questioned by the police. UNSOLVED CHILD MURDER : Joline Witt

 

[Justsayn]

There was a lot of speculation that there was some kind of connection between the judge or magistrate, the missing da, and Sandusky. I know that the Jolene Witt case is still opened.and no connection between the 2 incidents. Sandusky and Witt. I remember being very afraid for her,I spent a lot of time close to Williamsport Pa. I think about the Witt case daily.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

There was a lot of speculation that there was some kind of connection between the judge or magistrate, the missing da, and Sandusky. I know that the Jolene Witt case is still opened.and no connection between the 2 incidents. Sandusky and Witt. I remember being very afraid for her,I spent a lot of time close to Williamsport Pa. I think about the Witt case daily.

The magistrate, I think it is called magisterial district judge (DJ), is different than the judge.

The original DJ that handled the Sandusky arraignment was Leslie Dutchcot; she had participated in Sandusky's charity, The Second Mile. It was not uncommon for people in Centre County to be involved. When this was noted, she was removed and a retired DJ from another county took over.

Unlike Common Pleas Court judges, DJ's can have outside legal work. In 2011, Dutchcot was "of counsel," i.e. associated with, the State College firm of Goodall & Yurchak (now Steinbacher, Goodall & Yurchak). Amos Goodall was a longtime friend, and personal lawyer of, Ray Gricar and represented his daughter Lara in that regard since 2005. He was also the lawyer that handled the July 2011 action that declared RFG dead. They had been long term friends since they ran against each other for DA in 1985.

There has been a question about if Dutchcot, as a DJ, heard that RFG had been involved in the 1998 Sandusky and told Goodall; then did Goodall, seeing a Sandusky indictment looming, advise LG to seek to have him declared dead? It is possible, but that is not the only possibility.

The story about Sandusky, and that there had been a 1998 incident which involved RFG, was reported on 03/31/11. LG filed the papers to go to court on 6/30. It is entirely possible that Goodall heard something, but not necessarily from Dutchcot. There were other people involved in the 1998 investigation. I had heard that RFG had been involved with the 1998 investigation on 4/1/11, a day after the first story was written.

So it is quite possible that Goodall heard that there was this 1998 incident and advised the family to petition to declare RFG dead, before the handling of the 1998 incident became public. If he did, I think it was good advice. Had LG waited until the seventh anniversary, it would have been filed during the run-up to Sandusky's trial. It would have been a bigger public relations disaster.

 

[Justsayn]

The magistrate, I think it is called magisterial district judge (DJ), is different than the judge.

The original DJ that handled the Sandusky arraignment was Leslie Dutchcot; she had participated in Sandusky's charity, The Second Mile. It was not uncommon for people in Centre County to be involved. When this was noted, she was removed and a retired DJ from another county took over.

Unlike Common Pleas Court judges, DJ's can have outside legal work. In 2011, Dutchcot was "of counsel," i.e. associated with, the State College firm of Goodall & Yurchak (now Steinbacher, Goodall & Yurchak). Amos Goodall was a longtime friend, and personal lawyer of, Ray Gricar and represented his daughter Lara in that regard since 2005. He was also the lawyer that handled the July 2011 action that declared RFG dead. They had been long term friends since they ran against each other for DA in 1985.

There has been a question about if Dutchcot, as a DJ, heard that RFG had been involved in the 1998 Sandusky and told Goodall; then did Goodall, seeing a Sandusky indictment looming, advise LG to seek to have him declared dead? It is possible, but that is not the only possibility.

The story about Sandusky, and that there had been a 1998 incident which involved RFG, was reported on 03/31/11. LG filed the papers to go to court on 6/30. It is entirely possible that Goodall heard something, but not necessarily from Dutchcot. There were other people involved in the 1998 investigation. I had heard that RFG had been involved with the 1998 investigation on 4/1/11, a day after the first story was written.

So it is quite possible that Goodall heard that there was this 1998 incident and advised the family to petition to declare RFG dead, before the handling of the 1998 incident became public. If he did, I think it was good advice. Had LG waited until the seventh anniversary, it would have been filed during the run-up to Sandusky's trial. It would have been a bigger public relations disaster.

I think there was speculation about a possible trafficking ring, between the dj or dm in Wellsboro pa and Sandusky’s dealings. I am not sure if I can say speculation on trafficking on here since it was speculation. So if not let me know I will delete my comment. So there could possibly be a link between Sandusky and a trafficking ring? Or maybe this missing da could be linked to Sandusky via a possible trafficking ring. I moved from the area long ago, so I did not keep up on the Sandusky thing. My daughter did consider going to penn state. I said no. I had to buy her a new car. But, that was money well spent in my opinion. She ended up in selingsgrove. But, with pizza gate and the me too movement. I was very anxious if this was a possibility? And possibly come to light later.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I think there was speculation about a possible trafficking ring, between the dj or dm in Wellsboro pa and Sandusky’s dealings. I am not sure if I can say speculation on trafficking on here since it was speculation. So if not let me know I will delete my comment. So there could possibly be a link between Sandusky and a trafficking ring? Or maybe this missing da could be linked to Sandusky via a possible trafficking ring. I moved from the area long ago, so I did not keep up on the Sandusky thing. My daughter did consider going to penn state. I said no. I had to buy her a new car. But, that was money well spent in my opinion. She ended up in selingsgrove. But, with pizza gate and the me too movement. I was very anxious if this was a possibility? And possibly come to light later.

I know of no link, direct or indirect, between anyone in Wellsboro and Sandusky. Except for Sandusky offering a victim pot at one point, I know of no connection between Sandusky and drugs.

I know of no direct link between RFG and anyone in Wellsboro.

The only indirect link that I know of is me. I have blogged on the case, and I have had relatives living in Wellsboro. At one point, I played on the same Trivial Pursuit team with a former Tioga County DA; he was not holding office at contemporaneously with RFG. We won, missing only a question about Sancho Panza.

 

[Justsayn]

I know of no link, direct or indirect, between anyone in Wellsboro and Sandusky. Except for Sandusky offering a victim pot at one point, I know of no connection between Sandusky and drugs.

I know of no direct link between RFG and anyone in Wellsboro.

The only indirect link that I know of is me. I have blogged on the case, and I have had relatives living in Wellsboro. At one point, I played on the same Trivial Pursuit team with a former Tioga County DA; he was not holding office at contemporaneously with RFG. We won, missing only a question about Sancho Panza.

Nice! Congrats. At that point I was working out of state 60+ hours and had 2 children at home. So I was not following. But, I grew up in southern toga school district and lived in lycoming county, had family in Renovo,north bend,Dubois, area.

 

[minazoe]

I could not say for sure that he was using his laptop. I know that, at least before 4/15, RFG had generated a map to Lewisburg on his computer and had checked the weather online for both Lewisburg and Raystown Lake. He checked a third location according to a source I have, but I don't know if it is accurate statement. Raystown was 4/14, late morning, so it is unlikely that he did that on the evening of 4/14.

RFG was known to have gone or stayed at the office to work late. He didn't come into the office the next day, so it wasn't something pressing. Monday, he might have had to have taken over for an ADA to question one witness. That is it, and that is four days away.

The police have indicated that there was no "meet me in Lewisburg" communication on the office computer. That would not prevent phone calls.

That said, it could be related to his disappearance.

why check the weather? was he flying somewhere? is there an airfield nearby? sorry if I have asked this..but it's not like he was going five hours away.. driving far away into a whole other weather system is it? how strange , another strange IMO thing about this whole shebang.

If you are going to go die in the woods why check the weather report? would weather affect certain suicide plans...like a noose could be slippery in the rain?
the river may be flooding when I jump?

why oh why did he check the weather there?

catching a flight..perhaps he would be walking some distance..

weird.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

why check the weather? was he flying somewhere? is there an airfield nearby? sorry if I have asked this..but it's not like he was going five hours away.. driving far away into a whole other weather system is it? how strange , another strange IMO thing about this whole shebang.

If you are going to go die in the woods why check the weather report? would weather affect certain suicide plans...like a noose could be slippery in the rain?
the river may be flooding when I jump?

why oh why did he check the weather there?

catching a flight..perhaps he would be walking some distance..

weird.

The only airfield is literally a field, covered with grass; it is an emergency strip. No lights, no tower, only emergency landings; it does have a windsock. I don't know if a plane could take off from that.

Some things do not look at all like suicide.

Why generate a map to Lewisburg? If he wanted it be a message why not print it out? Why not just leave a message, "I'm going to Lewisburg?"

I can come up with three reasons to generate a map.

1. Directions. RFG knew how to get to Lewisburg. The directions are to turn east at Pleasant Gap and then turn left at the light in Centre Hall, so he didn't need to give someone else a map.

2. Getting the mileage for reimbursement or a tax deduction. If it were a business trip, he'd get reimbursed. Why would the trip be secret; why wouldn't he tell the staff or tell PEF?

3. He was checking the time of the trip. If he committed suicide, he wouldn't have to worry about the time.

 

[minazoe]

The only airfield is literally a field, covered with grass; it is an emergency strip. No lights, no tower, only emergency landings; it does have a windsock. I don't know if a plane could take off from that.

Some things do not look at all like suicide.

Why generate a map to Lewisburg? If he wanted it be a message why not print it out? Why not just leave a message, "I'm going to Lewisburg?"

I can come up with three reasons to generate a map.

1. Directions. RFG knew how to get to Lewisburg. The directions are to turn east at Pleasant Gap and then turn left at the light in Centre Hall, so he didn't need to give someone else a map.

2. Getting the mileage for reimbursement or a tax deduction. If it were a business trip, he'd get reimbursed. Why would the trip be secret; why wouldn't he tell the staff or tell PEF?

3. He was checking the time of the trip. If he committed suicide, he wouldn't have to worry about the time.

I wonder if there was any activity at that airstrip on the day Ray disappeared ? Do any boats leave from there?

were any other cars noticed in that parking lot? cars rented? was there a car rental in walking distance?

I hate this case.

Ray slipped away, I am convinced.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I wonder if there was any activity at that airstrip on the day Ray disappeared ? Do any boats leave from there?

were any other cars noticed in that parking lot? cars rented? was there a car rental in walking distance?

I hate this case.

Ray slipped away, I am convinced.

I'm not sure a plane could take off from that field; I doubt that even a private jet could. There were other cars in the lot; there has been no link established between the cars to the disappearance. The boats consist of kayaks.

They only way that RFG could rent a car is with a credit card; there was none.

That would not preclude someone else for renting a car for him, or a straw purchase of a car. Because there was a delay with PennDOT processing registrations, it is possible that RFG could have bought a car and it would have not been in the database until about 2-3 months later.

 

[minazoe]

I asked my husband would he check the weather if he was going to the woods to die and he said he might, because he might want to spend some time in nature first, or in anticipation so to picture the scenario in his mind and have an expectation.

I guess... but then it sounds as though you are of a normal state of mind..and how can you be? They say many suicides seem resolute and relaxed in days preceding their demise.

to me the whole thing feels wrong, just as a whole..

like you would think some pieces would fit together on some level.
like oh there were signs, there were problems, troubles, issues, misery,
there were no solutions, he was depressed, he didn't connect, he gave things away,
there were moments that felt like goodbyes, he hated his job, he lost his job
he was burned, cheated on, broken hearted.
he was sick, he was sensitive,
he was mentally unwell.

no he spent the night at his office doing???? then he ditched his laptop, in what seems nothing short of a spy caper, casting parts in different locations.

and managed to fly off the screen. mOO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Voluntarily leaving is quite possible. Most of the evidence points to something voluntary, suicide or walk away.

It could be argued that RFG buying the Mini and putting it in PEF's name, paying off her house, was giving things away. (I am playing Devil's advocate.)

I am trying not to go with a gut reaction, largely because it has been wrong so often in this case.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is the podcast.

Womens Room Podcast

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The Fenton sighting was first revealed in the article "Missed Leads," on May 13, 2006.

The witness in Centre Hall RFG stopped opposite at the traffic light, so it wasn't driving past.

While it is unlikely that someone jumping from the bridge would die from the fall, hypothermia would be a problem, as would any injury caused by the fall. I don't think that RFG did jump off the bridge, but largely because the body was not recovered.

If after 43 minutes that is all I have to say, it must be good.

 

[minazoe]

most kids look up to a brother.
what happens when there is a suicide of this sibling?
was it an understandable suicide? was there a reason that could be known?

this would cause a huge emptiness and confusion in the sibling.

just thinking of it makes me feel sick.

I know the psyche is a universe of it's own and we can't really know the depths of Ray's inner
self..BUT

who does this to their child? so antiseptic, no note, no comfort..just a vacuum.

I feel he could not do it unless he was so depressed he simply thought they would not care.

this picture doesn't fit the way this all went down. mOO

 

[minazoe]

I cannot imagine my husband not coming home. never returning. the first night of fear and apprehension..just beside yourself..I cannot. I know he wasn't married, but his daughter too,
Her father is one day just gone, no resolution.

this is someone who doesn't care about the suffering of others,

but again low self esteem can kill a person, I wonder if he was compensating and had real feelings of not fitting into his own life or maybe didn't feel he had accomplished enough or the right things.

we don't know him, but depression is a bad mama jamma.

something was going on, there is no doubt.

if something was going to happen it would have happened by now.
his name never came up in a sting, no pedo -networks, courtroom money deals, bribes etc...nothing ever came up with Ray's name attached..zip.

So the idea he had to run doesn't really play unless it has to do with bad people who are looking for him.

and even then...bad people could find his little family and bring him out of hiding, so they would essentially be in danger...so witness protection would include them for sure.

unless they didn't want to go..

and if he stashed a bunch of $$$$ and took off...that is one weird dude...and no moral authority.

maddening.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped:

most kids look up to a brother.
what happens when there is a suicide of this sibling?
was it an understandable suicide? was there a reason that could be known?

this would cause a huge emptiness and confusion in the sibling.

Roy Gricar was manic depressive and had been treated for a while prior to his suicide. While RFG had his doubts about suicide, Tony Gricar does not question it. There can be a genetic factor in both depression.

Roy being manic depressive would be understandable reason for suicide.