PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #16

[J. J. in Phila]

But how many early spring drownings do you have in that branch of the Suswuehanna?

2 or 3. The only one with the body not being found on the other branch in the winter.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Duplicate post.

 

[Ozoner]

2 or 3. The only one with the body not being found on the other branch in the winter.

Cold water would certainly increase the likelihood of a body not rising to the surface after a drowning. So would low body fat, and Ray looked like he was in decent shape.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Cold water would certainly increase the likelihood of a body not rising to the surface after a drowning. So would low body fat, and Ray looked like he was in decent shape.

It got warmer. That was partly winter runoff.

 

[Ozoner]

It got warmer. That was partly winter runoff.

It takes quite a while for the water on the bottom of a river to warm up. The coldest water molecules will be on the bottom. It's entirely possibly possible that decay was slow enough to prevent Ray's body from rising even if he didn't use any weights.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It takes quite a while for the water on the bottom of a river to warm up. The coldest water molecules will be on the bottom. It's entirely possibly possible that decay was slow enough to prevent Ray's body from rising even if he didn't use any weights.

The level of the water dropped over the summer.

 

[Ozoner]

The level of the water dropped over the summer.

There wouldn't have been any soft tissue left by then; it's unlikely bones would have been spotted. It's the most likely scenario. Alternatively, his body may have risen quickly and floated past Harrisburg before the river was searched. I consider that scenario less likely.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

There wouldn't have been any soft tissue left by then; it's unlikely bones would have been spotted. It's the most likely scenario. Alternatively, his body may have risen quickly and floated past Harrisburg before the river was searched. I consider that scenario less likely.

The river level was down.

As I've indicated, I have seen no other cases.

 

[Trackergd]

Gah! I am really angry with myself for missing this...notably since I was boots on the ground in Lewisburg.

There is a bridge on St. Anthony Street that crosses a tributary to the west branch..... And a nice small point of land between the tributary and the river.

An easy walk from the park and the SOS and probably a nice quiet spot to sit and contemplate something. Might be nothing but it fits one of the scenarios.

I am wondering if I was too focused on the WRONG *&^#%$@ BRIDGE.

Not sure how long it will be before I can get my sorry butt back to Lewisburg to check, as I am working for a critical infrastructure industry during this virus pandemic.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

That is a fairly shallow creek. A body would have been found.

 

[Ozoner]

That is a fairly shallow creek. A body would have been found.

Probably . . . but bodies can get snagged.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Probably . . . but bodies can get snagged.

That creek is shallow enough that a body would be seen, especially during a dry period.

 

[Ozoner]

That creek is shallow enough that a body would be seen, especially during a dry period.

Maybe, but what is the bottom of the creek like? Is it sandy or mucky? A decayed body could settle completely into the muck and not be visible even if the creek were to run dry.

 

[minazoe]

wouldn't he do somewhere better to drown? could he have weighted himself down?

I mean Ray is not an idiot. and if he did it then he for sure didn't want the trauma of having his body discovered, other wise he would have done a hotel/parking lot/ home.

but then again he would know full well the legal tangle of hiding his suicide so completely that it would take years to resolve the estate.

this is where I take issue with this scenario.
it seems unnecessarily cruel, just to avoid having his body located.

I think he had to also understand the risk that his body would not be found in the river.

Most attorneys would leave instructions...care for their loved ones in some way by leaving a note or assign someone to distribute the estate...something.

still on the fence. mOO

 

[Ozoner]

wouldn't he do somewhere better to drown? could he have weighted himself down?

I mean Ray is not an idiot. and if he did it then he for sure didn't want the trauma of having his body discovered, other wise he would have done a hotel/parking lot/ home.

but then again he would know full well the legal tangle of hiding his suicide so completely that it would take years to resolve the estate.

this is where I take issue with this scenario.
it seems unnecessarily cruel, just to avoid having his body located.

I think he had to also understand the risk that his body would not be found in the river.

Most attorneys would leave instructions...care for their loved ones in some way by leaving a note or assign someone to distribute the estate...something.

still on the fence. mOO

I'm going to brainstorm some ideas on how a suicide might ensure that his body wouldn't be found:
1) He could find an out-of-the-way storm drain to crawl into with a razorblade or a bottle of sleeping pills.
2) He could climb into a dumpster with a contractor garbage bag and tie himself into it from the inside.
3) He could sneak into a steel mill and jump into a vat of molten steel when no one was looking.
4) He could tie weights to himself and jump off a boat into a deep body of water.
5) He could find an abandoned house, fill the bathtub with acid or lye, and then climb into the tub.
6) He could dig a hole a rig it so that the dirt would fall back into the hole after he was in it.
7) If he knew where a large concrete pillar was going to be poured, he could climb into the form and wait.
8) If he knew of a large hollow tree, he could climb into it.
9) He could hike into the mountains and look for a very remote spot.
10) He could burrow into the deep muck of a pond or creek.
11) He could steal the identity of a dead person whose death had never been reported to the SSA and then then kill himself openly, knowing that he would be found but misidentified.
12) He could go to the nearest dam on a river and then jump in, knowing that his body would be crushed to bits.
13) He could find a hidden cavity in a building or other structure and crawl into it.
14) He could jump into a natural feature, like a volcano or sinkhole.
15) He could slither deep into an abandoned coal or anthracite mine.

I'm not suggesting that Ray did any one of those things; I'm just trying to figure out reasons why Ray's body might not have been found.

 

[minazoe]

the bathtub one is disturbing. :0). mOO

 

[browning]

Are there any interviews with Ray's girlfriend or daughter? Curious to know what they think happened.

 

[minazoe]

don't get me started on Ray's GF. I just find it all so odd. maybe not a great relationship.

mOO

 

[Ozoner]

the bathtub one is disturbing. :0). mOO

The bathtub one probably isn't very likely. LOL
We've talked about parallels with Mel Wiley's case in this thread, and I'm convinced that Mel Wiley left in order to commit suicide far from home.
Ray could have done the same thing; maybe he hitched a ride somewhere and then killed himself.
(For me, the oddest evidence is the smell of smoke in Ray's car.)

 

[minazoe]

someone said they spotted Ray moving the mini from in front of the ( museum?). to the parking lot where it was ultimately found.

maybe that wasn't Ray moving the car to the parking lot.

mOO