PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #6

[J. J. in Phila]

Today is Ray Gricar's 66th birthday.

 

[CJMAJORGIRL24]

IF there is missing $$$, I think the logical thing to do -would be talk to his live in gf, Patty Fornicola.

 

[CJMAJORGIRL24]

Happy Birthday, Ray. I hope you are enjoying your favorite adult beverage, on a warm sunny island!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

IF there is missing $$$, I think the logical thing to do -would be talk to his live in gf, Patty Fornicola.

LE has, repeatedly. She was even polygraphed.

Keep in mind, PEF was his significant other for only about 2 1/2 hears; I'm going back five years.

 

[CJMAJORGIRL24]

But she more than anyone else because she was an "intimate" would know about his financial situation? Woudln't you agree?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

But she more than anyone else because she was an "intimate" would know about his financial situation? Woudln't you agree?

Maybe not. Most of my old girlfiends, I've a few, did not know my financial situation.

I would want to look at the time of his divorce. PEF was not involved with RFG at that time.

That said, perhaps she could give greater insight, but I'd rather LE look at his financial records, probably even back to the mid 1990's. That was the time he went to full time status.

 

[CJMAJORGIRL24]

If I remember correctly, Mr. Gricar has been married several times, and had a daughter. Did he pay alimony, child support? Did he help pay for his daughters education? Her home? I do believe it is important to know his spending habits during the last year or so of his life.

I wish LE would check into his finances and other things that I have learned they let pass them by.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

If I remember correctly, Mr. Gricar has been married several times, and had a daughter. Did he pay alimony, child support? Did he help pay for his daughters education? Her home? I do believe it is important to know his spending habits during the last year or so of his life.

I wish LE would check into his finances and other things that I have learned they let pass them by.

No alimony. RFG was not paying child support at the time he disappeared; Lara was an adult, and I think in her mid 20's. Even i there was child support, it would have ended 5-6 years before.

I'm not sure if he paid child support at any point, but his daughter's mother seems to have been making substantially more money while they were married and while Lara was a minor. RFG had planned to be a "stay at home dad," after moving to Centre County around 1980.

BG, Lara's mother, was a full professor at Penn State's business college. In 2002, the average salary for someone in that position was $141,000. A like was previously posted. Two things to note:

1. BG had been there for 22 years, so she might have making above that average.

2. BG did outside consulting work for businesses. That is not included in that average salary.

RFG was making around $120,000 at the time.

It has been reported that LE has gone back to look at his finances. Note, however, that there were no money transfers immediately prior to his disappearance.

 

[CJMAJORGIRL24]

LG -owned a home near Seattle, WA, didn't she? --I forgot that her mom was a professor! But wasn't Mr. Gricar married between BG and PF? Do you know what she does for a living, and if she has been thoroughly investigated?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

LG -owned a home near Seattle, WA, didn't she? --I forgot that her mom was a professor! But wasn't Mr. Gricar married between BG and PF? Do you know what she does for a living, and if she has been thoroughly investigated?

Yes, though it should be noted that he was not married to PEF.

I do not know what she does for a living now; before and during her marriage, she was in retail.

Police did contact her and she indicated that she had not heard from since the divorce. My understanding is that the divorce was not amicable, as would be expected in a divorce.

She has indicated that she did not plan to comment until the case is resolved. She did not receive alimony.

 

[CJMAJORGIRL24]

She won't comment til the case is solved? Thats nice. Why would we care what she has to say then? (j/k)

Two things I have learned in school. The most valuable being -the "kiss" method. Second is -means, motive opportunity. I am busy today -but will try to get the time to type up both of my theories.

It is nice to know that. Mr. Gricar isn't forgotten.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I just did a blog comparing the initial response of both PEF and the Bellefonte police force to those responses in the Tanya Rider case.

http://www.centredaily.com/2011/10/17/2952885/first-response.html

There is a brief thread on the Tanya Rider case, which I cited in the blog.

I've wanted to do a comparison with the Rider case for a while.

In the next several weeks, I'm hoping to do a blog on the the last year of the investigation.

 

[ThePhantom]

I've never had the sense that this case was handled properly from the get go. Some cases, it seems, promptly get all the resources and brainpower available to solve them; others, it seems, don't. Perhaps, those that don't, have some kind of hidden backdrop that only a few see, know or understand. Could it be there are some in positions of power/authority who have a vested interest in not thoroughly exploring all the possibilities of Mr. Gricar's disappearance? Does anyone associated with him have anything to hide? Has anyone close to the case died, possibly taking any relevant knowledge their grave? Could someone be fearful of revealing what they know? People can be afraid of those in power. Mr. Gricar's involvement in prosecuting drug cases has been brought up here, but have other possibilities been examined?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I've never had the sense that this case was handled properly from the get go. Some cases, it seems, promptly get all the resources and brainpower available to solve them; others, it seems, don't. Perhaps, those that don't, have some kind of hidden backdrop that only a few see, know or understand. Could it be there are some in positions of power/authority who have a vested interest in not thoroughly exploring all the possibilities of Mr. Gricar's disappearance? Does anyone associated with him have anything to hide? Has anyone close to the case died, possibly taking any relevant knowledge their grave? Could someone be fearful of revealing what they know? People can be afraid of those in power. Mr. Gricar's involvement in prosecuting drug cases has been brought up here, but have other possibilities been examined?

The first 48 hours, it was possibly the best handled adult missing persons case I've heard about. In terms of searching for a body, and basically looking at suicide or murder, it was exemplary in the first weeks. Then, it seems to have stopped.

They went through the house, looking for signs of violence or a cleanup and didn't find anything. They polygraphed PEF; she passed. The polygraphed LG; she passed. The interesting is that there was absolutely no way LG could have been a suspect in his murder (or involved in his suicide).

My guess is "legacy protection." Some of what he held back could be viewed as damaging to RFG's reputation, if you think it's terrible if he left voluntarily or was with another woman.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

If he did squirrel away money to disappear--which I don't believe for a moment since he left a huge pile of $$$ behind--that would be his own business. I can't see any reason to dig into his finances back 15 years. Moreover, how do we know that he didn't just spend money freely and generously? I make a very nice living, but I can't seem to accumulate anything. So even digging may not satisfy those who are curious. And if he is alive, as you suppose, such digging would be a huge invasion of privacy.

His disappearance is only a crime if he was murdered, and there is no indication of a financial motive for murder on the part of those who might have expected to be his heirs; thus, I don't see a reason to investigate to see if he had a getaway stash if the idea is that Ray is alive and living it up on his millions. It was my understanding that LE did not see anything out of the ordinary in his finances, so who is it, exactly, putting forward this hypothesis?

Again, I still don't see in this man's life the kind of selfishness and arrogance it would take to leave family, friends, colleagues, and citizens in this painful situation, I am willing, however, for someone to show me evidence to the contrary.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

If he did squirrel away money to disappear--which I don't believe for a moment since he left a huge pile of $$$ behind--that would be his own business. I can't see any reason to dig into his finances back 15 years. Moreover, how do we know that he didn't just spend money freely and generously? I make a very nice living, but I can't seem to accumulate anything. So even digging may not satisfy those who are curious. And if he is alive, as you suppose, such digging would be a huge invasion of privacy.

The police have been doing so, and there seems to be interest from both the Departments of Treasury and Homeland Security.

I frankly have not been focusing on the financial aspect, though that might change since so many people keep bringing it up. I think looking at RFG's finances from 1998 to 2005 would be in order, but I don't think anyone has said 15 years. Further, as noted, all information you've seen on it has been published. It is not private.

Further, in looking at his six figure salary and his known expenditures, there appears to be less money than there should be.

His disappearance is only a crime if he was murdered, and there is no indication of a financial motive for murder on the part of those who might have expected to be his heirs; thus, I don't see a reason to investigate to see if he had a getaway stash if the idea is that Ray is alive and living it up on his millions.

LE has consistently said that voluntary departure is a possibility, with the former DA calling it probable.

LE, further, is investigating the disappearance, and part of that is determining what happened. If there is a discovery, that would indicate beyond a reasonable doubt, that RFG walked away, that would be sufficient for me. I would stop my inquiries. (Note that I did not say, "If the find him.")

I have said, and will reiterate now, that the major piece of evidence will be the way out of Lewisburg. That is the key.

Again, I still don't see in this man's life the kind of selfishness and arrogance it would take to leave family, friends, colleagues, and citizens in this painful situation, I am willing, however, for someone to show me evidence to the contrary.

The evidence is that RFG had no obligation, really, to anyone.

1. His daughter was in her mid-20's, had not been in his household for more than a decade, and was more than 2,000 miles away. She was provided for financially, perhaps better than if he retired.

2. He had no legal obligation to his girlfriend, but he did provide for her financially, e.g. paying her mortgage and putting the Mini Cooper in her name.

3. He was planning to leave office in 8 1/2 months and also not practice law.

4. He had no outstanding financial obligations.

 

[cloudbuster05]

The police have been doing so, and there seems to be interest from both the Departments of Treasury and Homeland Security.

I frankly have not been focusing on the financial aspect, though that might change since so many people keep bringing it up. I think looking at RFG's finances from 1998 to 2005 would be in order, but I don't think anyone has said 15 years. Further, as noted, all information you've seen on it has been published. It is not private.

Further, in looking at his six figure salary and his known expenditures, there appears to be less money than there should be.



LE has consistently said that voluntary departure is a possibility, with the former DA calling it probable.

LE, further, is investigating the disappearance, and part of that is determining what happened. If there is a discovery, that would indicate beyond a reasonable doubt, that RFG walked away, that would be sufficient for me. I would stop my inquiries. (Note that I did not say, "If the find him.")

I have said, and will reiterate now, that the major piece of evidence will be the way out of Lewisburg. That is the key.



The evidence is that RFG had no obligation, really, to anyone.

1. His daughter was in her mid-20's, had not been in his household for more than a decade, and was more than 2,000 miles away. She was provided for financially, perhaps better than if he retired.

2. He had no legal obligation to his girlfriend, but he did provide for her financially, e.g. paying her mortgage and putting the Mini Cooper in her name.

3. He was planning to leave office in 8 1/2 months and also not practice law.

4. He had no outstanding financial obligations.

LE has consistently said that voluntary departure is a possibility, with the former DA calling it probable.

Was that before or after they declared him dead? LE MR testified remember?

I have said, and will reiterate now, that the major piece of evidence will be the way out of Lewisburg. That is the key.
Thats only key to your walk away theory.
Now if they go back and find out why it was so important for Ray to go to Raystown Lake and come back that thursday afternoon agitated ( for me thats key).

Also Shikellamy park sighting where Ray was seen also like Raystown Lake has a marina right at the bottom where he was seen.

I question if Ray was watching drugs being brought into both areas, considering Operation sunburst11 involved State College area too, It centered in Lewisburg and surrounding areas and including state college ,Rays area.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

LE has consistently said that voluntary departure is a possibility, with the former DA calling it probable.

Was that before or after they declared him dead? LE MR testified remember?

After.

Thats only key to your walk away theory.
Now if they go back and find out why it was so important for Ray to go to Raystown Lake and come back that thursday afternoon agitated ( for me thats key).

No, that is the for disproving the walkaway theory. If you could check and definitively determine that RFG didn't acquire another vehicle, or that some associate didn't drive him out, that would greatly weaken walkaway.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

The walkaway hypothesis is useful because it can't be disproved, other than by finding either RG's body or his living person or receiving some communication that can be absolutely verified as to time, date, and identity. If RG was murdered, how convenient for the killer(s) that people have concluded that he might have walked away so that investigators can stop looking for a body or other evidence of foul play.

No one has yet to explain why a man who is a career prosecutor, retiring in a few months (full pension and Social Security, plus assets in the bank) would walk away when he just needed to wait? Or could just resign and go even sooner, following protocols and making effective transition?

My guess is that those in charge either don't know what happened and wanted the story out of the media or they know he was killed and prefer not to follow where that trail leads.

How do we know that Treasury and Homeland Security are interested in RG's finances? Why would LE allow him to be declared dead and his daughter to begin settling the estate if there are issues about his finances?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The walkaway hypothesis is useful because it can't be disproved, other than by finding either RG's body or his living person or receiving some communication that can be absolutely verified as to time, date, and identity. If RG was murdered, how convenient for the killer(s) that people have concluded that he might have walked away so that investigators can stop looking for a body or other evidence of foul play.

With a checking of some things, walkaway can be greatly weakened. It would be absence of any reasonable ability to get out of Lewisburg.

In reality, there was nothing "convenient" about it. The police spent several weeks search for a body, and discovered nothing. The police checked his residence for any evidence of a crime, and found nothing.

It was, primarily, the witness sightings that put RFG outside of Lewisburg, days and weeks later, that generated the possibility of walkaway. It is the seeming lack of assets that generated the possibility of walkaway. It was RFG's interest in a prior walkaway case that generated the possibility of walkaway.

In short, it was the evidence that has generated the talk of walkaway.

No one has yet to explain why a man who is a career prosecutor, retiring in a few months (full pension and Social Security, plus assets in the bank) would walk away when he just needed to wait? Or could just resign and go even sooner, following protocols and making effective transition?

He had been passing off cases. As noted (and noted by another poster prior to my joining) the amount of his pension would be hire if his employment would end prior to retirement. His daughter gets that.

Now, that is a possible motive.

How do we know that Treasury and Homeland Security are interested in RG's finances? Why would LE allow him to be declared dead and his daughter to begin settling the estate if there are issues about his finances?

The Treasury/Homeland Security link is noted here:
http://www.centredaily.com/2011/07/14/2834622/watching-the-watchmen-watch-us.html

It has come from two independent sources.

The standard for a declaration of death is PA is basically, "we have not heard from the missing person, and we have made a 'diligent inquiry' for the missing person." You can read about it here:

http://www.centredaily.com/2011/02/18/2529829/gricar-is-alive-legally.html#storylink=misearch

LE basically does not have a role in a declaration of death, in this case, except to indicate what they did in terms of the "diligent inquiry."

The blog was first posted in 2010. Further, in the other missing person case that RFG was somewhat interested in, Mel Wiley, the police determined he left voluntarily, but he was declared dead.