PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #6

[J. J. in Phila]

I think we should investigate this!

What we should be investigating is the way out of Lewisburg.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

J.J-is it true that you are a retired FLE? ---(I am honored and shocked-and understand why you are so strong-willed-if this is true) LOL

FLE? Federal law enforcement? No, if that is the question. Former local government type and former minor bureaucrat.

 

[CJMAJORGIRL24]

FLE? Federal law enforcement? No, if that is the question. Former local government type and former minor bureaucrat.

Ohhh -I thought you might have been (former) FBI.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Oh, please! 2000 miles, or frankly 20 miles, makes a difference.

I don't. I do say they that there was a huge amount of separation, which is perfectly normal. People normally drift apart.

You are confusing "affectionate" with "close."
Daughter, her actual status. Not "child."

No, I see separation, which was long term. RFG could very easily look at his daughter and think, she in an independent adult, who doesn't need me to put food on the table, or change her diaper. It isn't a suggestion that he doesn't love her, nor that he wished to provide for her.

An emotionally mature father who realized his daughter is an intelligent, emotionally mature, and educated adult may.

The fact that you don't like it really has no bearing on it.

Go down to my signature. It says, "What happened to Ray Gricar?" If the
answer is, "He left voluntarily," I can live with him making that choice. It was his choice, and no one else's. I just want to know it was his.

If he walked, why can't you respect that choice?

I don't think any of use can gauge the closeness experienced by 2 other people, so i used "affectionate" in order not to presume, mind-read, or over-estimate.

i do not have any personal feelings about this case, other than concern that a public official in PA was likely murdered and the case was never solved. i've had 35 years working with people of all ages in education at all levels, in state and federal social services, and as a volunteer. I've seen the damage done to wives, husbands, sons, daughter and other relatives of all ages by suicide and by husbands/fathers when they walk away from their families. I don't know a single psychologist, social worker, educator or professional counselor who would say that a father parking his car in a lot miles from his home and walking away from his family would essentially be no big deal. It may be that RG was seriously ill, mentally (in terms of brain functioning), psychologically (confused thinking or personality disorder) or emotionally (no empathy, emotionally detached). So I would not judge him in the sense of saying he should not have walked away. I don't know him and of course, adults have a right to their own lives. My point is that the man you describe is not at all a nice person, a man who has seriously distroted thinking about family relationships and a very odd idea about money--rationalizing abandoning his grown daughter by leaving money (that he couldn't know she would ever get) and walking away without a lifetime of resources and the old-age safety net of Social Security and Medicare.

I don't like or not like the idea of "walkaway." I don't know RG. But I do know that good fathers don't walk away. Period. And I think it is far more likely that he was murdered.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I don't think any of use can gauge the closeness experienced by 2 other people, so i used "affectionate" in order not to presume, mind-read, or over-estimate.

I would not characterize the relationship as estranged or even problematic, but clearly, they were not interacting on a daily basis.

I don't know a single psychologist, social worker, educator or professional counselor who would say that a father parking his car in a lot miles from his home and walking away from his family would essentially be no big deal. It may be that RG was seriously ill, mentally (in terms of brain functioning), psychologically (confused thinking or personality disorder) or emotionally (no empathy, emotionally detached).

I would not characterize it as such. RFG was known for being "reserved" in the words of his deputy (I think it was him). The president judge described him as, "A hard guy to get to know."

As for empathy, it depends on the standard you choose to use. I would not call someone who left after providing not only for his daughter, but his girlfriend, and who left few loose ends, as lacking empathy. It might have been a quite logical decision. I'm not suggesting that this is the explanation, only that it could be.

So I would not judge him in the sense of saying he should not have walked away. I don't know him and of course, adults have a right to their own lives. My point is that the man you describe is not at all a nice person, a man who has seriously distroted thinking about family relationships and a very odd idea about money--rationalizing abandoning his grown daughter by leaving money (that he couldn't know she would ever get) and walking away without a lifetime of resources and the old-age safety net of Social Security and Medicare.

Well, he would know, being a good attorney.

I don't like or not like the idea of "walkaway." I don't know RG. But I do know that good fathers don't walk away. Period.

I could just as easily argue that good fathers do maximize their estates for their children to inherit or that good fathers don't leave their 12 year old daughters' households. Those are both just as subjective as your statement.

And I think it is far more likely that he was murdered.

I prefer evidence to long distance psychology. That evidence, fair strongly, points to RFG being alive as of the evening of 4/18/05. Though not quite as strong, there is evidence that he was alive on 5/27/05.

So, we have motivation, perhaps multiple reasons why RFG might have disappeared. We don't need to prove motive.

We have opportunity. The timing and location can very strongly point to walkaway.

What we don't have is means, i.e. how did RFG walk away, if he did. That is the key (and it always has been).

 

[cloudbuster05]

I would not characterize the relationship as estranged or even problematic, but clearly, they were not interacting on a daily basis.



I would not characterize it as such. RFG was known for being "reserved" in the words of his deputy (I think it was him). The president judge described him as, "A hard guy to get to know."

As for empathy, it depends on the standard you choose to use. I would not call someone who left after providing not only for his daughter, but his girlfriend, and who left few loose ends, as lacking empathy. It might have been a quite logical decision. I'm not suggesting that this is the explanation, only that it could be.



Well, he would know, being a good attorney.



I could just as easily argue that good fathers do maximize their estates for their children to inherit or that good fathers don't leave their 12 year old daughters' households. Those are both just as subjective as your statement.



I prefer evidence to long distance psychology. That evidence, fair strongly, points to RFG being alive as of the evening of 4/18/05. Though not quite as strong, there is evidence that he was alive on 5/27/05.

So, we have motivation, perhaps multiple reasons why RFG might have disappeared. We don't need to prove motive.

We have opportunity. The timing and location can very strongly point to walkaway.

What we don't have is means, i.e. how did RFG walk away, if he did. That is the key (and it always has been).

Did it ever occur to you that LE can't find the means because he was simply, possibly abducted? The dogs after all circled the car and went no further than about what 20 feet in the parking lot? You can't argue with the dogs, they know what they are supposed to scent.

 

[cloudbuster05]

I don't think any of use can gauge the closeness experienced by 2 other people, so i used "affectionate" in order not to presume, mind-read, or over-estimate.

i do not have any personal feelings about this case, other than concern that a public official in PA was likely murdered and the case was never solved. i've had 35 years working with people of all ages in education at all levels, in state and federal social services, and as a volunteer. I've seen the damage done to wives, husbands, sons, daughter and other relatives of all ages by suicide and by husbands/fathers when they walk away from their families. I don't know a single psychologist, social worker, educator or professional counselor who would say that a father parking his car in a lot miles from his home and walking away from his family would essentially be no big deal. It may be that RG was seriously ill, mentally (in terms of brain functioning), psychologically (confused thinking or personality disorder) or emotionally (no empathy, emotionally detached). So I would not judge him in the sense of saying he should not have walked away. I don't know him and of course, adults have a right to their own lives. My point is that the man you describe is not at all a nice person, a man who has seriously distroted thinking about family relationships and a very odd idea about money--rationalizing abandoning his grown daughter by leaving money (that he couldn't know she would ever get) and walking away without a lifetime of resources and the old-age safety net of Social Security and Medicare.

I don't like or not like the idea of "walkaway." I don't know RG. But I do know that good fathers don't walk away. Period. And I think it is far more likely that he was murdered.

Wow you really put this in perspective!!! Great post from a great mind!!!!

 

[CJMAJORGIRL24]

Did it ever occur to you that LE can't find the means because he was simply, possibly abducted? The dogs after all circled the car and went no further than about what 20 feet in the parking lot? You can't argue with the dogs, they know what they are supposed to scent.

I agree, cloudbuster! It REALLY bothers me when we as humans -humilate the wonderful job these dogs DO!! BUT when a dog locates a missing or murdered person, we all sing their praises. I trust the instinct of the dogs in this case!!

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Thanks for the kind words, cloudbuster. But I'm just one of the many pondering this case. I just think that a person who would walk away from his family and leave his loved ones never knowing what happened to him has an issue with either emotional intelligence or moral intelligence or has a brain-related physical problem. I was estranged from my grandfather for the last two decades of his life. He had just abandoned his third wife and third set of children and step-children and wrote to me (daughter of his first child) to complain about his third wife. I wrote back and said, "Don't contact me if you want to complain about your wife or children." He never wrote again. So I know a few things, firsthand, about estrangement, and years in the "people" fields have taught me lots more. A loving parent does not leave his daughters or sons wondering if he is alive, with no way to grieve or mourn, and no opportunity for closure.

Of course it is possible that RG did such a thing, but I, too, find the dog evidence persuasive, as well as the lack of any indication of how RG "disappeared" if he indeed walked away. And then of course I think a person would have to be crazy or foolish to forego a pension, Social Security and health insurance in the retirement years. A smart attorney would know how terrible risky that is.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Did it ever occur to you that LE can't find the means because he was simply, possibly abducted?

Yes, but the problem is, LE has not ruled that possibility out as of yet.

The dogs after all circled the car and went no further than about what 20 feet in the parking lot? You can't argue with the dogs, they know what they are supposed to scent.

The car was removed on 4/16; the dogs got there on 4/17. They went for about 20 yards in the lot and the handler thought that might indicate RFG got into another car.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Thanks for the kind words, cloudbuster. But I'm just one of the many pondering this case. I just think that a person who would walk away from his family and leave his loved ones never knowing what happened to him has an issue with either emotional intelligence or moral intelligence or has a brain-related physical problem.

I might agree with you if we were talking about someone with actual commitments to a wife, underage child, walking out on bills, or running from the law. That wasn't RFG.

Of course it is possible that RG did such a thing, but I, too, find the dog evidence persuasive, as well as the lack of any indication of how RG "disappeared" if he indeed walked away. And then of course I think a person would have to be crazy or foolish to forego a pension, Social Security and health insurance in the retirement years. A smart attorney would know how terrible risky that is.

First, he really didn't forgo the pension. His heir or heirs got it. The rest of your posts returns us to the question of if there are unaccounted for assets and the amount.

Even if we found six digits not accounted for, that would prove RFG walked away however. It would make it more likely, but not prove it.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

What is he supposed to live on? A decent apartment would be $10,000 per year, food, clothes, transportation, utilities, medical expenses, etc. If he spent $2000 total per month (and that's not much for a guy who likes antiques and baseball,etc.) in five years, he goes though $120,000 easily, not counting on medical insurance--if he can even get insurance because the insurers will require a social security number, as will any hospital he ever enters. If he needs rehabilitative care for some condition, he could spend $3-4 thousand per month. Projecting out to age 80, RG would need probably well over $300,000 in hand.

When I said "forego" the pension, I mean that he chose to walk away from it, thereby losing any access to using it for its intended purpose--to take care of RG after his working years. Pensions are not primarily "estate savings"; they are retirement savings intended for the pensioner. Every financial planner I have ever heard on this subject warns people approaching or in retirement not to deplete their own savings helping their grown children. That's just another reason the pension argument doesn't make sense to me.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

What is he supposed to live on? A decent apartment would be $10,000 per year, food, clothes, transportation, utilities, medical expenses, etc. If he spent $2000 total per month (and that's not much for a guy who likes antiques and baseball,etc.) in five years, he goes though $120,000 easily, not counting on medical insurance--if he can even get insurance because the insurers will require a social security number, as will any hospital he ever enters. If he needs rehabilitative care for some condition, he could spend $3-4 thousand per month. Projecting out to age 80, RG would need probably well over $300,000 in hand.

You must live in Fox Chapel.

I doubt if he'd need anything close to $2000 per month, maybe half that, or maybe much less if you talking about a foreign county. You could live for decades on $300,000.

When I said "forego" the pension, I mean that he chose to walk away from it, thereby losing any access to using it for its intended purpose--to take care of RG after his working years. Pensions are not primarily "estate savings"; they are retirement savings intended for the pensioner. Every financial planner I have ever heard on this subject warns people approaching or in retirement not to deplete their own savings helping their grown children. That's just another reason the pension argument doesn't make sense to me.

If RFG walked away, he'd never get that pension, presumably. He'd live off of what money he'd had before he'd left. Now, we don't know what that is.

He wouldn't be "helping out." He would be making a trade, an option that wouldn't be there in 8 1/2 months. It's possible, but possible isn't evidence.

 

[cloudbuster05]

You must live in Fox Chapel.

I doubt if he'd need anything close to $2000 per month, maybe half that, or maybe much less if you talking about a foreign county. You could live for decades on $300,000.



If RFG walked away, he'd never get that pension, presumably. He'd live off of what money he'd had before he'd left. Now, we don't know what that is.

He wouldn't be "helping out." He would be making a trade, an option that wouldn't be there in 8 1/2 months. It's possible, but possible isn't evidence.

JJ I spend more than $2,000 a month in basic living expenses. without any luxury money and Im not in Fox Chapel but South of PGH which is slightly cheaper but not much. Im going to write out all my expenses for one month and tally it. It will include food too lol.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ I spend more than $2,000 a month in basic living expenses. without any luxury money and Im not in Fox Chapel but South of PGH which is slightly cheaper but not much. Im going to write out all my expenses for one month and tally it. It will include food too lol.

I don't spend nearly that amount, but I'm "frugal," to coin a phrase.

And, as indicated, there are less expensive areas to live in than Greater Pittsburgh or Greater Philadelphia.

I would certainly agree that $30,000 ($5000 a year) is not much, but ten times that amount is.

 

[cloudbuster05]

I just thought of something . If Ray left the mini behind we must calculate what a new vehicle payment would look like, unless he purchased one which would still minus funds. I wonder how he would do that without identity and within the compliance of the law on a title and registration. Im sure he would have needed to have his license at some point updated too. I don't believe he would break the law and use a stolen identity. He worked his life upholding the law, so please don't take us down that road that he would. It's way to hard to swallow. If he left to another country then why did he leave his passports behind? Also as PGHgirl pointed out why would he leave a pension and SSI and his health Insurance behind when he would need those things? JJ the way your thinking is about doing it all so Lara gets everything is outrageously a strange way to look at this. Nobody lives poor if they don't have to. None of that fits Ray's characteristics. Then what about the livein girlfriend? I guess he was just to afraid to say Im leaving? Or at least leave a posty saying sorry-bye. I can't swallow Ray would have left PF behind without a word or a note. What possible motive would allow someone not to show any empathy toward her? I know he provided for her in your terms but what about the fact that she was supposed to retire with him? PF was planning that retirement just as he was and they only had 8 and a half months left to do their plans, which they did have plans. It was reported Ray was excited about those plans. We heard that the relationship was described as soul mates by her. Even if he had a change of heart he would of at least said something. Why would Ray even need to go into hiding and change everything about who he was and how he handled things? I know you will say motive does not need to be shown but we are not in the courtroom, we are in his personal life and how he handled Lara and PF. Everything about Ray disappeared right with him by people who choose to make him a monster.

 

[cloudbuster05]

I don't spend nearly that amount, but I'm "frugal," to coin a phrase.

And, as indicated, there are less expensive areas to live in than Greater Pittsburgh or Greater Philadelphia.

I would certainly agree that $30,000 ($5000 a year) is not much, but ten times that amount is.

Im also frugal as we heard Ray was, but Im telling you between bills and not much more than food and some medical supplies, Im over $2,000 a month easily. Heck I even quit smoking because I can't afford it. Food has become costly lately to. Im sure Ray wouldn't shop at Aldi's for food, somehow I just can't swallow that either.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I just thought of something . If Ray left the mini behind we must calculate what a new vehicle payment would look like, unless he purchased one which would still minus funds. I wonder how he would do that without identity and within the compliance of the law on a title and registration. Im sure he would have needed to have his license at some point updated too. I don't believe he would break the law and use a stolen identity. He worked his life upholding the law, so please don't take us down that road that he would. It's way to hard to swallow.

I bought a nice used car about a fortnight a before RFG disappeared; I still drive it. Less than $6,000.

I never thought RFG would drive fast, yet he did.

JJ the way your thinking is about doing it all so Lara gets everything is outrageously a strange way to look at this.

Go back and read the posts again. That is one effect. It may be one of the motives.

Nobody lives poor if they don't have to.

Who said he'd be living "poor."

None of that fits Ray's characteristics.

The problem is, a lot this does fit RFG's characteristics. "Reserved," "a hard guy to know," "frugal." A lot of what has been posted does fit.

I'll add another one, "very smart."

There was another story recently. http://www.clevelandindependent.com/2011/10/09/police-‘joe-king-is-not-joe-king-’/

Definitely not RFG, but not the situation makes you think.

 

[cloudbuster05]

Im off good debate.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Forget it JJ I found Ray Gricar!
http://staffingtalk.com/staffing-firm-hires-ultimate-mystery-shoppers/

No, but you proved the existence of Ray Gricar jokes.