PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #6

[J. J. in Phila]

I am not completely caught up yet from the last few days of posts, but I wanted to ask-is there any way in which an investigation into the cover-up of Sandusky would lead to RG becoming a protected witness? Meeting U.S. Marshals in Lewisburg may explain how he got away, and why he let someone smoke in his car.

No, and if it were, he'd be in front of the grand jury. Also he wouldn't be declared dead.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Similar does not give a prosecutor evidence. Ask any DA what is needed to build a case. It takes evidence. Tomorrow I think will explain alot more details.

In this case, it would at least bolster the case of Victim 6.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

And Paterno retires as the end of the season. http://content.usatoday.com/communi...-paterno-to-retire-at-the-end-of-the-season/1

 

[SeekingJana]

Similar does not give a prosecutor evidence. Ask any DA what is needed to build a case. It takes evidence. Tomorrow I think will explain alot more details.

OK, then we can agree to leave the child known to us as B.K. out of discussion. Apparently, there were some sort of " special circumstances" with B.K. which precluded his abuse being documented well or a police report filed. I don't know what the circumstances were, nor will I likely ever know.
However, ONE child is just as important and believable as TWO children, but the separate testimony of 2 children of abuse by the same abuser definitely adds weight to the NEED FOR FURTHER INVESTIGATION- NOT CLOSING VICTIM 6's CASE.

My opinion of Gricar's actions/ in-actions is being formed on the basis of my years of education and experience in the field of behavioral psychology. While I have never practiced in the specialty area of child psychology, the principles I learned in many years of college and continue to learn in current literature are quite clear and usually, very effective in eliciting a recounting by the child which is usable as court testimony., Leaving legalities out of it, there is also the matter of trained professionals helping the child abuse victim to begin to heal physically and emotionally. There has been a tremendous increase in child advocacy and in the therapeutic interview process of an abused child since 1998, but there definitely were expert advocates and therapists 13 years ago!!!
Usually, the first step after treatment of any physical injuries is the filing of a police report. Unless parents desire to have their health insurance cover the costs associated with treatment and therapy, the state pays for it. Usually, in most cases in most states, a police report is necessary for the child advocates to make contact with the child, parents, and any witnesses.

Briefly, this is the bare bones truth about how a child's psyche' works.CHILDREN TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT SEXUAL ABUSE.
Children who tell adults about a rape or any other sexual abuse ARE TO BE BELIEVED and the incident is to be investigated and EVALUATED thoroughly. This is standard operating procedure for hospital Emergency Departments, pediatricians, school officials, and any other person entrusted with child safety and welfare in any capacity. THIS INCLUDES THE LEGAL SYSTEM when a police report of abuse is filed by the parent or other responsible adult on behalf of the child. Children naturally have a great deal of natural modesty around adults at the ages of Sandusky's preferred victims and there is great shame of the part of the victim related to abuse issues. A child will blame him or herself for the abuse. Except for a very few strange cases where a group of adults coached the children for a long time to lie, children WILL tell the truth.

A specially trained child therapist talks with the child in a way where the child is not coached to say more, or to have their limited abilities to describe the events misunderstood or minimized.
WHY was Victim 6, who had a very supportive mother, not given a physical exam for signs of anal tearing, body bruising consistent with his account of what happened in the shower, or helped by a team of child advocates, including a child therapist trained to interview sexual abuse victims?
.
Gricar had two separate children's accounts of being abused at the hands of one man. What else did he need just to continue his investigation for the purpose of gathering EVIDENCE?
He was at least partly responsible for the Sandusky- Vic. 6 mom encounter being heard by LE. Have you read the text? I posted it.
He heard Sandusky admit what he did and what he would continue to do.

This is inexcusable to me, and I cannot imagine anyone who has normal human instincts to protect children and possesses rational thought processes believing that "Poor Ray made one little mistake" or " Ray did all he could". I call BS!

This is no longer a rational excuse, IMO.

IMO ,Ray Gricar was either paid off or deliberately chose not to be involved in the prosecution of a highly respected PSU coach.
He didn't disappear until 7 years later. The time lapse is related to the above statement, IMO.

I most likely will not be responding for a time. I need a break from the horror of what is unfolding-- more and more of Sandusky's abuse survivors are coming forward.
And yes, at this point in time based upon what is currently known, I definitely do place a huge amount of responsibility for a pedophile to continue to rape on the head of Ray Gricar, who " decided to drop" his investigation. NOT prosecution phase- investigation phase!!!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

OK, then we can agree to leave the child known to us as B.K. out of discussion. Apparently, there were some sort of " special circumstances" with B.K. which precluded his abuse being documented well or a police report filed. I don't know what the circumstances were, nor will I likely ever know.
However, ONE child is just as important and believable as TWO children, but the separate testimony of 2 children of abuse by the same abuser definitely adds weight to the NEED FOR FURTHER INVESTIGATION- NOT CLOSING VICTIM 6's CASE.

Actually, B.K. could not testify before the grand jury because he is in the military out out of the country. There very probably would have been have been another set of charges against Sandusky had B. K. been able to testify.

In 1998, the police included him in the investigation, so RFG had his information as well.

WHY was Victim 6, who had a very supportive mother, not given a physical exam for signs of anal tearing, body bruising consistent with his account of what happened in the shower, or helped by a team of child advocates, including a child therapist trained to interview sexual abuse victims?

It was a "touching" situation there, not penetration You also had Sandusky's admission that he did shower and hug Victim 6, in front of witnesses.

This is inexcusable to me, and I cannot imagine anyone who has normal human instincts to protect children and possesses rational thought processes believing that "Poor Ray made one little mistake" or " Ray did all he could". I call BS!

This is no longer a rational excuse, IMO.

Agreed.

IMO ,Ray Gricar was either paid off or deliberately chose not to be involved in the prosecution of a highly respected PSU coach.
He didn't disappear until 7 years later. The time lapse is related to the above statement, IMO.

A week ago, I would have said you were insane. I don't see any evidence, at the present time, but I cannot rule this out.

 

[ScorpRising]

Finally got a chance to stop in after a week or two. I never connected the black cloud over Happy Valley with Ray until this morning (and it took someone pointing it out to me).

JJ - I just wanted to see if your thoughts changed on what happened to Ray but I see you're holding steady and I don't disagree.

My thoughts are... This (abuse) doesn't support just one scenario, but supports them both. Run from the future fallout or be murdered for knowing too much / not doing enough.

 

[cloudbuster05]

OK, then we can agree to leave the child known to us as B.K. out of discussion. Apparently, there were some sort of " special circumstances" with B.K. which precluded his abuse being documented well or a police report filed. I don't know what the circumstances were, nor will I likely ever know.
However, ONE child is just as important and believable as TWO children, but the separate testimony of 2 children of abuse by the same abuser definitely adds weight to the NEED FOR FURTHER INVESTIGATION- NOT CLOSING VICTIM 6's CASE.

My opinion of Gricar's actions/ in-actions is being formed on the basis of my years of education and experience in the field of behavioral psychology. While I have never practiced in the specialty area of child psychology, the principles I learned in many years of college and continue to learn in current literature are quite clear and usually, very effective in eliciting a recounting by the child which is usable as court testimony., Leaving legalities out of it, there is also the matter of trained professionals helping the child abuse victim to begin to heal physically and emotionally. There has been a tremendous increase in child advocacy and in the therapeutic interview process of an abused child since 1998, but there definitely were expert advocates and therapists 13 years ago!!!
Usually, the first step after treatment of any physical injuries is the filing of a police report. Unless parents desire to have their health insurance cover the costs associated with treatment and therapy, the state pays for it. Usually, in most cases in most states, a police report is necessary for the child advocates to make contact with the child, parents, and any witnesses.

Briefly, this is the bare bones truth about how a child's psyche' works.CHILDREN TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT SEXUAL ABUSE.
Children who tell adults about a rape or any other sexual abuse ARE TO BE BELIEVED and the incident is to be investigated and EVALUATED thoroughly. This is standard operating procedure for hospital Emergency Departments, pediatricians, school officials, and any other person entrusted with child safety and welfare in any capacity. THIS INCLUDES THE LEGAL SYSTEM when a police report of abuse is filed by the parent or other responsible adult on behalf of the child. Children naturally have a great deal of natural modesty around adults at the ages of Sandusky's preferred victims and there is great shame of the part of the victim related to abuse issues. A child will blame him or herself for the abuse. Except for a very few strange cases where a group of adults coached the children for a long time to lie, children WILL tell the truth.

A specially trained child therapist talks with the child in a way where the child is not coached to say more, or to have their limited abilities to describe the events misunderstood or minimized.
WHY was Victim 6, who had a very supportive mother, not given a physical exam for signs of anal tearing, body bruising consistent with his account of what happened in the shower, or helped by a team of child advocates, including a child therapist trained to interview sexual abuse victims?
.
Gricar had two separate children's accounts of being abused at the hands of one man. What else did he need just to continue his investigation for the purpose of gathering EVIDENCE?
He was at least partly responsible for the Sandusky- Vic. 6 mom encounter being heard by LE. Have you read the text? I posted it.
He heard Sandusky admit what he did and what he would continue to do.

This is inexcusable to me, and I cannot imagine anyone who has normal human instincts to protect children and possesses rational thought processes believing that "Poor Ray made one little mistake" or " Ray did all he could". I call BS!

This is no longer a rational excuse, IMO.

IMO ,Ray Gricar was either paid off or deliberately chose not to be involved in the prosecution of a highly respected PSU coach.
He didn't disappear until 7 years later. The time lapse is related to the above statement, IMO.

I most likely will not be responding for a time. I need a break from the horror of what is unfolding-- more and more of Sandusky's abuse survivors are coming forward.
And yes, at this point in time based upon what is currently known, I definitely do place a huge amount of responsibility for a pedophile to continue to rape on the head of Ray Gricar, who " decided to drop" his investigation. NOT prosecution phase- investigation phase!!!

<modsnip>. I have worked most of my adult life in a school full of kids in the age groups of the victims. We have a obligation to do more for our children not less.

My problem is Ray may be dead and this may have something to do with it. <modsnip> You don't know what Ray may or may not have done. The last time I checked Ray is still MISSING!

Ray is not even here to give us any details. <modsnip>know Ray could of been mounting a huge case about this and more. I also believe this sex scandal is just the tip of the iceberg. The mantra on here been Ray walked away. Most not all have not seen thru the guru of that pushing of a walk away. When people hear that enough they start to believe it. I didn't walk into this case 17 months later. I was there from the weekend he disappeared and not a day was lost on the accumulation of information on Ray's case.

This is not a popularity contest or a wanting to write a opinionated blog, based on how I felt. Many times leaving out facts. I have not went out of my way to gain the trust of the superiers on this case and I never went out of my way to stay close to them. I see a pattern and it can't be ignored.

This case is personal to me. The weekend Ray disappeared I was in Lock Haven, Clinton County for trout season. We checked on our cabin as we do every year. We found a predug grave it was a fresh dig. I will continue later I have somewhere to go , I will continue later.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Finally got a chance to stop in after a week or two. I never connected the black cloud over Happy Valley with Ray until this morning (and it took someone pointing it out to me).

JJ - I just wanted to see if your thoughts changed on what happened to Ray but I see you're holding steady and I don't disagree.

My thoughts are... This (abuse) doesn't support just one scenario, but supports them both. Run from the future fallout or be murdered for knowing too much / not doing enough.

It doesn't change the odds on what happened. It could lead to a stronger motive for walkaway or for murder. At best, it would slightly lower suicide.

For those people that worried about about Mr. Gricar's legacy, don't worry. It just went missing too.

 

[ThePhantom]

And so the plot thickens, perhaps

 

[AlwaysShocked]

<modsnip> Also, I am unaware of any outside blogs related to this subject. So if someone who posts here has a blog, well, good for them. If I decide to go look for it, that is my right. If someone is posting their "opinions" on their own blog, that is their right.

Regarding a "lecture about children", I appreciated that informative post.

Moving on, there was a post about a "triangle" including RG and "GS". Who is "GS"? The girlfriend?

I also want to ask JJ: Ray was supposedly a fastidious person who did not allow any smoking in his automobile, yet he supposedly was seen by witnesses smoking? Was he a known smoker who just did not allow smoking in his vehicle, or did he supposedly not smoke?

RE the Penn State scandal: It has just been announced the U.S. Department of Education will conduct an investigation of these incidents.

In my opinion, both Paterno and Spanier (the University President who did nothing) both need to leave NOW. I sent an email to the Trustees of Penn State University expressing my opinion on this. You can do the same.

And yes, I did attend Penn State, many years ago.

 

[ScorpRising]

Always,

GS was VP of PSU, arrested on charges of perjury.
Ray was a non-smoker but seen smoking in a post-disappearance sighting.

Ready for this one... and it's MOO... Relates to Joe, not Ray.

Let the old man finish the season or at least this week's game. It's the last home game of the season, which means its Senior Day. Like it or not, he's currently only a figurehead, a shell of the coach he once was. What is he, about 150 years old now? Right or wrong, cover up by him or not, he should be allowed to say good-bye with dignity. We don't make asses out of death-row inmates, why make an out of him. He reported it up the chain of command. That is ALL he was required to do. The cover-up is bigger than him.

 

[cluciano63]

This case isn't going away anytime soon and surely can only be made worse, IMO, with JP's continued presence in the box at the games, calling the shots. The games will become media frenzys anyway but much more so if he is there.

 

[eriklatranyi]

JJ:

When did RFG announce he was not running for re-election and was retiring?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Always,

GS was VP of PSU, arrested on charges of perjury.
Ray was a non-smoker but seen smoking in a post-disappearance sighting.

That was on 4/18/05, near a shopping/motel area, Highland Avenue in Wilkes-Barre. It was at a bar/restaurant. Two witnesses reported him independently. One was the bar tender. The first who reported it was a cop from SE Pennsylvania that was visiting the area.

The cop, who was something beyond a patrolman, talked to him for about 5 minutes. He noted that he was smoking, but was awkward in how the man was smoking, as if he wasn't an experienced smoker. The cop had no idea about the scent of smoke or cigarette ash in the Mini, it wasn't released until later, or even if RFG was a smoker.

The man talked about the Cleveland Indians.

The cop saw the report in the media a few days later, I think 4/21, and called the police.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ:

When did RFG announce he was not running for re-election and was retiring?

January 2004. He announce that he would not be running for reelection, or for any other office, or to continue practicing law. He was serious, from what a friend told me.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

So, over a year prior to his disappearance, he announces he will not seek re-election and will not work as an attorney. JJ, if you know, did he announce or discuss any firm plans for what he DID plan to do - if anything -after he retired?

He was pretty young to just plan on sitting around for the rest of his days.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

So, over a year prior to his disappearance, he announces he will not seek re-election and will not work as an attorney. JJ, if you know, did he announce or discuss any firm plans for what he DID plan to do - if anything -after he retired?

He was pretty young to just plan on sitting around for the rest of his days.

He planned to travel; PEF was planning to leave her job and retire.

Interestingly, when he first moved to Centre County, RFG had planned to be a stay at home dad.

 

[cloudbuster05]

Continued part 2 of post number 687. I took pictures of that grave that Sunday April17,2005. We drove home which is pretty far from that area. I told the property owner about the grave and she got mad that we didn't just report it. The problem with that was we had a long drive home and because of the area being so rural it takes a long time to get the state police there. I told property owner I would call after we hung up the phone. I called and got a state police dispatch lady and reported the grave and gave her my information which she said something to the fact that there is nothing much I could do about it law wise. I told her" you don't understand this grave was fresh and I believe meant for someone to go in. She kept to the law stuff.

Anyways that night on AOL I saw the top news was about a DA missing from Bellefonte PA. I asked my SO where that was and he told me we pass that exit on our way to camp. I told my SO about the missing DA from Bellefonte, he was shocked.

A few days later I was at work and I went to call home from my cell and I noticed there was a message on there. It was Corp. Holliday from Bellefonte LE. I called back and Mr Holliday wasn't there. Rickard had answered and he had no idea about no grave. I told him as much as I knew and said I would have my SO call him with directions to it. My So and him talked and directions was given. We asked to be called back thinking they needed it to remain like it was, you know for processing. No call ever came and we left probably about 3 messages. We heard nothing.

As maybe a few years pasted I saw in the CDTimes that someone brought up the grave. I saw that in a blog on Ray Gricar. After pondering that I decided to send the CDT a photo of the grave. PB writter and author of that blog made a comment about it and having a photo of it. He said he would ask LE about the photo and what they found out about it. Needless to say the answer was that PENN STATE geology dug it. Its unclear to me who exactly in LE told him that. Now I have a problem with that, first off you have to walk shortly past a cabin on private property which is marked as such to get to a back in spot where the grave resides. Am I to believe that PennStateGeo team couldn't see the cabin or private property signs?

This whole dilemia has opened up more avenues for me to look at now. The one victim was from Clinton County ect. Is it connected to Penn? They dug it for what reasons?
Now you can partly see where I am coming from. That grave has always in my mind told me what was planned for Ray, my only question is by who???

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Spanier and Paterno both fired, effective immediately.

 

[cloudbuster05]

I just saw it too on CNN breaking News.