PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #7

[Lord_Chatterly]

I was talking about footage of Ray and a woman in a store in Lewisburg. Right before he disappeared...am I hallucinating this? like from a security camera?

Are you perhaps referring to the Investigation Discovery show ? That was a re-enactment of the reported sighting of RFG on 4-15, as I recall.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZimSb1hO3rk

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is a comment I came across regarding train travel from Lewisburg: The nearest train station is located in Harrisburg. Amtrak runs passenger trains to major cities on the East Coast. One major factor that hinders Bucknell International students from journeying by train is that you have to take a bus to Haririsburg first

In my opinion, the train scenario is a romantic idea, however, the 'straw' arrangement with another vehicle, is more likely. IIRC, RFG seemed to be in control of what was going on with himself on 4-15. At least until he seemed to have disappeared.

I think the "chattering class" was looking at freight trains a few years ago.

One problem was the line was about a mile on the other side of the Susquehanna; it runs to Milton. I think there was a problem with the schedule as well.

The "straw purchase," ride from a helper, or buying another car under an assumed name is possible, if this walkway.

Getting into another car, willingly or not, is possible, if this is foul play.

 

[cj327]

Don't you think the investigators have a good idea whether the disappearance was planned or not, based on what he had been working on at work in his last couple of days there?
It would just have been a matter of checking which files were accessed or saved during those times. I am thinking especially of the night before his disappearance. What was he working on then? Was it something that looked like it would need to be continued the next week, or was he tying up loose ends (perhaps not in an overt way like cleaning out his desk!)? ...or was he doing something other than work?

I can't imagine him going in that night before to work on a project for a few hours that he knew he would never come back to.

I am no expert on these matters, but I assume that would be something law enforcement looked at. And if they did, wouldn't that tell them a lot about his plans or lack thereof?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Don't you think the investigators have a good idea whether the disappearance was planned or not, based on what he had been working on at work in his last couple of days there?
It would just have been a matter of checking which files were accessed or saved during those times. I am thinking especially of the night before his disappearance. What was he working on then? Was it something that looked like it would need to be continued the next week, or was he tying up loose ends (perhaps not in an overt way like cleaning out his desk!)? ...or was he doing something other than work?

I can't imagine him going in that night before to work on a project for a few hours that he knew he would never come back to.

I am no expert on these matters, but I assume that would be something law enforcement looked at. And if they did, wouldn't that tell them a lot about his plans or lack thereof?

He wasn't working on Sandusky.

RFG had Googled a map from Bellefonte to Lewisburg, on his office computer, sometime recently before he disappeared. He had done searches on the Internet on how to destroy a hard drive.

Conclusions: He wanted to destroy the data on his hard drive and was planning to go to Lewisburg. It doesn't tell us what he was planning to do there.

 

[minazoe]

some things I am wondering about..

are we very sure of Patty's whereabouts while Ray was in Lewisburg?

do we know for certain that Ray was home that morning?

who was the woman he was talking to in Lewisburg?

was Ray known in Lewisburg?


do we also know where Ray's daughter was at the time of his sighting in Lewisburg?

why does Karen hate Patty and call her a paramour?

just going over a few things...

over and over again....:countsheep:

 

[J. J. in Phila]

some things I am wondering about..

are we very sure of Patty's whereabouts while Ray was in Lewisburg?

Yes. She was at work and used the YMCA gym after work.

do we know for certain that Ray was home that morning?

Reasonably. At least one person saw him driving toward Lewisburg from Bellefonte.

who was the woman he was talking to in Lewisburg?

I don't know and it just might have been a random shopper.

was Ray known in Lewisburg?

Some people knew him, but he would not be recognized if he walked down the street.

do we also know where Ray's daughter was at the time of his sighting in Lewisburg?

It would be difficult for her to have been in the area; she lived in Washington state. I would assume that there are witnesses.

why does Karen hate Patty and call her a paramour?

I have no idea. As I said, I would not have used the word.

 

[cj327]

He wasn't working on Sandusky.

RFG had Googled a map from Bellefonte to Lewisburg, on his office computer, sometime recently before he disappeared. He had done searches on the Internet on how to destroy a hard drive.

Conclusions: He wanted to destroy the data on his hard drive and was planning to go to Lewisburg. It doesn't tell us what he was planning to do there.

Of course...then law enforcement would know what he was working on (work-wise) in his last hours spent at the DA's office. I think whatever he was doing last for work would have been a good clue as to his mindset.

I'm not saying it was anything directly related to his disappearance, but I think it would be an indicator as to whether he was planning on coming back on Monday or any time.

The unknown unknowns....what law enforcement knows that we don't.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

Of course...then law enforcement would know what he was working on (work-wise) in his last hours spent at the DA's office. I think whatever he was doing last for work would have been a good clue as to his mindset.

I'm not saying it was anything directly related to his disappearance, but I think it would be an indicator as to whether he was planning on coming back on Monday or any time.

The unknown unknowns....what law enforcement knows that we don't.

Yes, and I wonder why LE has not revealed MORE on this case...there is something THERE that must be problematic.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm not sure if they know. He could have been reviewing hard copies.

It is know that he was handing off cases and that he seemed to be working harder. He was scheduled to be in court on 4/18, but only to testify that an ADA did not have a conflict of interest.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I should add on the testimony, it was described as the kind of think where another ADA could cover for RFG. The case would not be lost if he wasn't there.

 

[SeekingJana]

Here is a comment I came across regarding train travel from Lewisburg: The nearest train station is located in Harrisburg. Amtrak runs passenger trains to major cities on the East Coast. One major factor that hinders Bucknell International students from journeying by train is that you have to take a bus to Haririsburg first

In my opinion, the train scenario is a romantic idea, however, the 'straw' arrangement with another vehicle, is more likely. IIRC, RFG seemed to be in control of what was going on with himself on 4-15. At least until he seemed to have disappeared.

Um, no, I didn't mean a passenger train. I meant jumped into a stopped freight train car-- the way many serial killers in modern times have gotten from place to place unobserved.
Criminals fleeing the state or even getting to the US border still use freight trains to get there.
I'm sorry, but I don't see one " romantic" thing about it!!
Transportation is transportation.You do what you have to do in the very most efficient and least observable way when walking away from your life, I expect.

IF we start limiting ourselves to small vehicles like cars only because that's what we use, then we are not using right brain thinking with our deductive reasoning.

IF Ray Gricar is alive, there's a reason he got clean away and has never been found. HE IS EXTREMELY SMART and he more than likely did NOT do the " expected things".

I do not see how we can dismiss either freight train car or small light plane owned by a pilot friend.

For example, the private community I live in has TWO airparks. Meaning anyone can fly in, pick someone/ anyone up any time of the day or night, refuel, and more than likely NOT be noticed. This type of thing is the norm here. We charter planes owned by our friends and go wherever we want to in the USA. I go on vacation via an American Airlines pilot's Lear jet or similar plane 6 or more times a year. They are competitive in price with commercial, and a ton more fun and comfortable for a group of us.

Anyway, RG wasn't going on a pleasure ride, cruise, flight or other excursion.
A small older model Cessna would be my pick IF he left by small airstrip and stops for refueling were made at small FBOs.. Every pilot I have ever known says they are so run of the mill that no one notices them, they are easy to fly at night, and MOST intelligent pilots are IFR rated or at least have enough flight hours to fly at night without the rating.
And did I mention that one can fly under the radar very easily in a light prop plane like a Cessna?
Also, with a 4-6 seater prop plane, your plane is not giving out info about who the plane owner is-- if owner/ pilot knows how to do the modification. It is legal.. sort of..

So, if he is alive, how did he leave?

If he is dead, where are the remains?

That's the essence of this case at this point.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Um, no, I didn't mean a passenger train. I meant jumped into a stopped freight train car-- the way many serial killers in modern times have gotten from place to place unobserved.
Criminals fleeing the state or even getting to the US border still use freight trains to get there.
I'm sorry, but I don't see one " romantic" thing about it!!
Transportation is transportation.You do what you have to do in the very most efficient and least observable way when walking away from your life, I expect.

A while back the freight train idea was discussed; yes, it is a good question. The problems were:

1. The railroad was about a half mile east of the Susquehanna; it is actually to the east of the wetlands area. RFG would have had to walk or be driven there.

2. It doesn't stop in that area; I think the closest stop is in Milton. RFG would have to jump on a moving train.

3. I think there were some problems with scheduling. RFG was seen in Lewisburg around 5:00 PM, and, IIRC, the train ran earlier in the day.

I can see the romance in "riding the rails."

IF we start limiting ourselves to small vehicles like cars only because that's what we use, then we are not using right brain thinking with our deductive reasoning.

IF Ray Gricar is alive, there's a reason he got clean away and has never been found. HE IS EXTREMELY SMART and he more than likely did NOT do the " expected things".

I do not see how we can dismiss either freight train car or small light plane owned by a pilot friend.

There are 5 airfields in a twenty mile radius of Lewisburg, so that is a possibility. I don't know of any friends that are pilots, however.

Hiring someone creates a problem, because there was a $15,000 reward. Assume RFG gave the pilot $5000 and said, hypothetically, **I'll give you $5,000 to fly me to Winchester, VA. Don't tell anyone.** Why wouldn't the pilot say, **Hey, if this Gricar guy shows up, I'll give him back his 5 k; I'll collect the $15 K reward.**

So, if he is alive, how did he leave?

If he is dead, where are the remains?

That's the essence of this case at this point.

You hit the nail on the head.

If this was foul play, figuring out why he went to Lewisburg, and who he met, might end up leading to the remains.

Finding evidence of how he got out of Lewisburg, ends the case for me.

 

[minazoe]

I hopped a freight train with friends when I was a teen back in the day.

Burlington RR long ago during the depression made it legal to ride the rail anywhere. Unfortunately I was underage and got nabbed.

but if you have a shortwave you can actually know which train to get on...we rode in brand new trucks on top of a 3 level piggyback car. The keys were in the dash and you could turn on the radio and rock out.

the train yards were soup kitchens and you could buy cigarettes...no one would bother you, but they were on the lookout for me and got me right away at that first stop.


this was a very long time ago...I wonder how much has changed...

 

[J. J. in Phila]

There is freight service in Lewisburg, but it has a grand total of 12 miles of track. http://www.nshr.com/UCIR page.html

It connects to the Norfolk Southern in Milton, and, unless you really knew what car was going where, you could end up as far south New Orleans and as far north as Buffalo. http://www.nscorp.com/nscportal/nscorp/map.html

Keep in mind, as well, that it was fairly cold on the night of 4/15-16, below freezing in Lewisburg. This would not be easy, from a physical standpoint.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

http://www.susquehannabus.com/locations.asp

I came across this bus info. Look at the map location in Lewisburg, the 'terms' in purchase of a ticket, and the time schedule. This could be a possibility.

1) With cash payment, no trace or record of RFG.

2) Allows the anonymity factor

3) Very close to where he had been in Lewisburg...only blocks
away.
4) The time-line would fit. (See schedule).

Recalling 'witness' reports, RFG seemed to be killing time at the
Packwood House, and the SOS. Lots of time to dump the lap-
top, the hard drive...then catch a bus. All in stride, no hassle,
etc. and not many, if any, to notice him.

Has something like this ever been discussed or investigated ?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

:truce:

http://www.susquehannabus.com/locations.asp

I came across this bus info. Look at the map location in Lewisburg, the 'terms' in purchase of a ticket, and the time schedule. This could be a possibility.

1) With cash payment, no trace or record of RFG.

2) Allows the anonymity factor

3) Very close to where he had been in Lewisburg...only blocks
away.
4) The time-line would fit. (See schedule).

Recalling 'witness' reports, RFG seemed to be killing time at the
Packwood House, and the SOS. Lots of time to dump the lap-
top, the hard drive...then catch a bus. All in stride, no hassle,
etc. and not many, if any, to notice him.

Has something like this ever been discussed or investigated ?

LE supposedly did. The bus, I would think, caters to younger people, i.e. college students. RFG was never going to pass for one.

I'm wondering, however, if he could have "blended in" with a group of prisoners from Lewisburg Federal Penitentiary?

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

:truce:

LE supposedly did. The bus, I would think, caters to younger people, i.e. college students. RFG was never going to pass for one.

I'm wondering, however, if he could have "blended in" with a group of prisoners from Lewisburg Federal Penitentiary?

That bus will cater to anyone. Travel by bus can be very indiscriminate, people tend to mind their own business, and RFG is not one to stand out, I would think he would blend in rather well.

By some report (how this was known, beyond me), but he had sunglasses with him? Adds to diminishing his looks.

I take it there are enough released LFP prisoners who travel on the ST ? What is your idea on that ?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

That bus will cater to anyone. Travel by bus can be very indiscriminate, people tend to mind their own business, and RFG is not one to stand out, I would think he would blend in rather well.

By some report (how this was known, beyond me), but he had sunglasses with him? Adds to diminishing his looks.

I take it there are enough released LFP prisoners who travel on the ST ? What is your idea on that ?

Yes, he had non-prescription sunglasses with him.

Well, if you are released from Lewisburg, there are not many ways to get out. Somebody can pick you up or you can take the bus.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

Yes, he had non-prescription sunglasses with him.

Well, if you are released from Lewisburg, there are not many ways to get out. Somebody can pick you up or you can take the bus.

This may be a small point, but just how was it known that he had sunglasses with him...eyewitness reports ?

I looked up the location of the Lewisburg Federal Penetentiary, and saw how close it is from Route 192. Were any inmates released about that time who could be a Person of Interest ? Perhaps one that RFG had a need to meet or the like ? Here is the link:

http://national.citysearch.com/profile/map/8812691/lewisburg_pa/us_penitentiary.html

 

[J. J. in Phila]

This may be a small point, but just how was it known that he had sunglasses with him...eyewitness reports ?

I looked up the location of the Lewisburg Federal Penetentiary, and saw how close it is from Route 192. Were any inmates released about that time who could be a Person of Interest ? Perhaps one that RFG had a need to meet or the like ? Here is the link:

http://national.citysearch.com/profile/map/8812691/lewisburg_pa/us_penitentiary.html

It would be hugely unlikely that he prosecuted anyone at LFP. That is for federal crimes. Further, it would be unlikely for him to meet a recently released inmate after he just stepped out of the prison.

I'm thinking that if there were a crowd of post college men on the bus, like released inmates, he could have blended in with them.

If I get on to bus with a group undergraduates, I'll stick out, at least because of age. I don't look like an undergraduate. Neither did RFG. If I get on to a bus with a group of recently released federal inmates, I could blend in with them. Heck, I get stopped by the cops/security enough as is.

His sunglasses are missing. It's like, how do we know he had his wallet with him. Well, it is missing.