PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #8

[Kiln Wood]

I hate so very much to ask this, but is anyone here checking the UID threads and other websites with updated UID reports to see if there are any remains/ circumstances when found which would possibly be a match to Ray?
Makes me so sad to think about it.. I don't think I can do it. But I do think it needs to be done. and will step up if anyone sees merit to it.
One thing- please don't say that LE has it covered, because many UID cases here have shown us that they don't. Thanks.

BBM

I have been doing this for Ray and for Maura Murray twice a week since April. So far I haven't found anything remotely interesting for either.

 

[cj327]

If these photos/noted locations are accurate, why couldn't both the laptop and the hard drive have been flung out into the water from the same location on the shore?


https://sites.google.com/site/raygricar/lewisburg-scene

https://sites.google.com/site/raygricar/lewisburg-scene/laptop-hard-drive-locations

I understand the water level was a lot higher than shown in these photos, and that the items were found at different times...but still, couldn't someone have removed the drive and thrown both laptop and drive into the water at the same time?...isn't that the simplest explanation for them both getting into the river? If I wanted to be sure a drive was "fried" (and possibly separate it from the traceable laptop it came from) then I would remove it first so that it would be sure to get better saturated by water.

Based on my experience kayaking and canoeing on a variety of rivers, the eddies behind objects in the water (such as that little island with trees on it) are very powerful, especially at higher flow rates, and can easily move a floating or submerged object laterally, and very often, they move it upstream. Even when that little island was totally submerged, it, and the trees, would have had a significant effect on the flow of the current. My first impression after looking at those photos a couple weeks ago was that the two objects entered the river at about the same point and then, owing to different buoyancies, one was moved farther by the current and one sank closer to where it entered the water.

A laptop, which is largely plastic on the outside and contains some air (until it bubbles out) would behave much differently in the water than an internal hard drive which I imagine would sink a lot quicker and not go as far. I'll bet someone could fling a laptop pretty far too..not as far as where it was found against the bridge, but certainly it could have caught the eddy behind the island/trees and moved around underwater a bit and ended up in a location where it could have ended up against the bridge where it was found.

Unless there is something that I am missing here, I think it is equally plausible that the laptop originated from a point along the shore than from the upstream side of the bridge. To me, the question is then which scenario is more plausible..that is was thrown by a person on shore right after the hard drive was removed, or that it was thrown from a vehicle on the bridge on the way into town...BUT very close to the "town" end of the bridge (i.e., when the vehicle was nearly all the way across the river). I suppose a person could have thrown it from the bridge, I know such scenarios were discussed before.

IMO, the vehicle scenario is least likely, a person on the bridge is more likely (but assuming there is a sidewalk on that side of the bridge), and thrown from shore is the most likely origin based on the reasoning that it would be simplest to throw them both at the same time than to carry the laptop up onto the bridge, only to throw it off just a short distance from the shore.

On a related note, if RFG was throwing his government-issued property into a river (come on, how many DAs throw govt-issued computer components into a freaking river?!?), my gut feeling is that he planned on being far, far away before the currents had any chance of spitting it back out. And based on his googling, I strongly believe he was the one who threw the hard drive.

 

[SeekingJana]

Bellefonte is the county seat and where the courthouse is located. The prison is in the surrounding township, I think, but has a Bellefonte address.

Bellefonte is actually a beautiful town with a Greek Revival Courthouse, and exquisite architecture, dating back to late Georgian. It was the home of five Governor's of the state and has a rich history dating back to Colonial times.

Considering that both of my parents were born within 30 miles of Jerry Sandusky's birthplace and that my documented ancestry has lived in neighboring Westmoreland County since from c. 1790 to 1986 (I was the last to leave), this has really shaken me. Not to mention that I'm a Penn State alum, and writing a blog about one of the people involved in the case.

It is as though I'm rapidly becoming a minor character in a Gothic novel.

I'm so very sorry, J.J.!!!
I wish a group of us could do like the posters in the JonBenet case did for years, and meet somewhere up there.. It is a very supportive thing.. We get to know the people we post with..

I care!!

 

[SeekingJana]

BBM

I have been doing this for Ray and for Maura Murray twice a week since April. So far I haven't found anything remotely interesting for either.

Edited to add: THANK YOU!! You are a good person to think of this and to do it.

IF you ever want a second pair of eyes, let me know.
Do you think there are enough UIDs for us to not duplicate the effort? Because Ray could be anywhere, not just in PA, if he is deceased..
Maura Murray's missing case is another that breaks my heart. Tara Grinstead's case of being missing, also.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

If these photos/noted locations are accurate, why couldn't both the laptop and the hard drive have been flung out into the water from the same location on the shore?

The drive as about 50% close to the bridge. The distance was still about 125 yards

I understand the water level was a lot higher than shown in these photos, and that the items were found at different times...but still, couldn't someone have removed the drive and thrown both laptop and drive into the water at the same time?

At the same is possible, but not from the same place.

Based on my experience kayaking and canoeing on a variety of rivers, the eddies behind objects in the water (such as that little island with trees on it) are very powerful, especially at higher flow rates, and can easily move a floating or submerged object laterally, and very often, they move it upstream. Even when that little island was totally submerged, it, and the trees, would have had a significant effect on the flow of the current. My first impression after looking at those photos a couple weeks ago was that the two objects entered the river at about the same point and then, owing to different buoyancies, one was moved farther by the current and one sank closer to where it entered the water.

1. I doubt that if tossed from the bank that the laptop could get to that support

Unless there is something that I am missing here, I think it is equally plausible that the laptop originated from a point along the shore than from the upstream side of the bridge. To me, the question is then which scenario is more plausible..that is was thrown by a person on shore right after the hard drive was removed, or that it was thrown from a vehicle on the bridge on the way into town...BUT very close to the "town" end of the bridge (i.e., when the vehicle was nearly all the way across the river). I suppose a person could have thrown it from the bridge, I know such scenarios were discussed before.

The area where the drive was fouind had a lot of debris on 4-15, That could have tangled it.

IMO, the vehicle scenario is least likely, a person on the bridge is more likely (but assuming there is a sidewalk on that side of the bridge), and thrown from shore is the most likely origin based on the reasoning that it would be simplest to throw them both at the same time than to carry the laptop up onto the bridge, only to throw it off just a short distance from the shore.

There is no walkway on the north side of the bridge.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

Why did RFG look at destroying the drive before he went to Lewisburg? How would the killers know RFG didn't copy the data someplace else? Why throw the drive and laptop in different places?



Why take the time to check? Why not just toss it?



In a closed environment, it could last for a while. Pocketing the butts would burn a hole in that pocket.

I think the cell phone had not been checked by any perpetrator. RFG had already had it turned off, and left in the car. I am starting to think he didn't want to be bothered by calls from PF, as he was probably 'busy' then.
He knew the car was going to be found, eventually, so why not just 'pair' the cell phone with the Mini ? Some folks have said just this, just in a different fashion.

Now, the ciggy butts. If we recall, an empty water bottle had been found in the Mini, right ? Perhaps, another one had been there too. Could have been used as a convenient ash tray and would have made for easy disposal, clearly not somewhere where it could be found. There i go again with the 'Smoking Forensics' ~~~!

Just some thoughts.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

You'd think so, wouldn't you? However, to my amazement, then disgust, I had a friend for a while who was such a stickler for not throwing cig butts out the window ( you know, cop car citation risks and so forth- L.C.) that he filled up his pockets with cigarette butts every day that I was with him.

In fact, it's almost the primary reason we parted company. I thought of him as a walking "Pigpen" from Peanuts.
Point being, he never caught fire, nor did his pockets or anatomy, but IMO, he was very strange for doing this. Sometimes, I have wondered if he didn't want his DNA tested.

Ok, I heard that. Look at my response just above to JJ about Ciggy Butts and the empty water bottle. Added advantage, IF there are wee sparks, some of the left over water in bottle is a good fire extinguisher ... hehe.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

I'm so very sorry, J.J.!!!
I wish a group of us could do like the posters in the JonBenet case did for years, and meet somewhere up there.. It is a very supportive thing.. We get to know the people we post with..

I care!!

Back in the day...of CB radios...I had done that with a crowd I had met "On Line" from that era...we had met for breakfast one morning. Guess what we all had ?
Pancakes.

So I propose that we all meet in Lewisburg...at the SOS...
for some fabulous Mrs. Butterworth pancakes and syrup !

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

The drive as about 50% close to the bridge. The distance was still about 125 yards



At the same is possible, but not from the same place.



1. I doubt that if tossed from the bank that the laptop could get to that support



The area where the drive was fouind had a lot of debris on 4-15, That could have tangled it.



There is no walkway on the north side of the bridge.

Good rebuttal. I know from you having been to Lewisburg your insight into the bridge relative to the rear of the SOS. I had always been curious of that walkway area at the end of River Street just past the SOS, that leads down to the river. IIRC from the recent Dateline filming, they also did some filming of that same area I now speak of.

Since there is no walkway on the North side of the bridge, I see where that supports your concept of the toss out the Mini window, and into the river.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Good rebuttal. I know from you having been to Lewisburg your insight into the bridge relative to the rear of the SOS. I had always been curious of that walkway area at the end of River Street just past the SOS, that leads down to the river. IIRC from the recent Dateline filming, they also did some filming of that same area I now speak of.

Since there is no walkway on the North side of the bridge, I see where that supports your concept of the toss out the Mini window, and into the river.

I never said "Mini window," exclusively, though it is possible. I said tossed from a vehicle.

On foot is possible, but you are standing in traffic and it would be dangerous. It is not at all dangerous from the walkway, well, any more than just walking.

 

[cj327]

The drive as about 50% close to the bridge. The distance was still about 125 yards



At the same is possible, but not from the same place.



1. I doubt that if tossed from the bank that the laptop could get to that support



The area where the drive was fouind had a lot of debris on 4-15, That could have tangled it.



There is no walkway on the north side of the bridge.

Do you mean the drive was found 125 yards upstream from the bridge/laptop?

By 50%, do you mean that the drive was 50% closer to the shore than the laptop was?

One of the things that also played into my line of thinking was the strange things that river currents can do. For example, two bodies entering a river at the same place can be found far apart, with the time in water not necessarily correlated with the distances from their point of origin.

So my understanding then is that it would simply be too much of a lateral distance for the laptop to have gotten from shore (near SOS), all the way out to where it was eventually found...?
Any other reasons it could not have originated from the same location as we are guessing the drive originated?

JJ- I saw your picasa (?) photos of the scene at a relatively high water level. I wonder if there are any photos taken at water levels similar to those on 4/15.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Do you mean the drive was found 125 yards upstream from the bridge/laptop?

It was about 125 yards upstream. The photo of the bridge is taken from the bank opposite the spot where TG indicated the drive was found. It could have been tossed from the bank, but it wasn't dropped.

One of the things that also played into my line of thinking was the strange things that river currents can do. For example, two bodies entering a river at the same place can be found far apart, with the time in water not necessarily correlated with the distances from their point of origin.

Even minus the drive, the laptop would not be too buoyant. I think it was still 4-7 pounds, sans drive. I'd have to check, but I remember discussing this a few years ago.

So my understanding then is that it would simply be too much of a lateral distance for the laptop to have gotten from shore (near SOS), all the way out to where it was eventually found...?
Any other reasons it could not have originated from the same location as we are guessing the drive originated?

Obviously someone could have moved one or both, after they were in the water. The river was lower at some points.

JJ- I saw your picasa (?) photos of the scene at a relatively high water level. I wonder if there are any photos taken at water levels similar to those on 4/15.

My understanding is that the water level was substantially higher on 4/15-22/05. The "island" with trees that separates the "channel" from the rest of the river at that point was completely submerged, again according to TG. It is not in my photo. Much, if not all, of the area where the weeds are in the foreground of the photo were also underwater.

In April of 2005, I'm told the weed area was filled debris, like tree branches. It would be entirely possible that the drive was in the debris and became dislodged later as well, though it could been tossed to the point where it was found.

Just so everyone knows what we are talking about: https://picasaweb.google.com/LookingforRay

 

[cj327]

It was about 125 yards upstream. The photo of the bridge is taken from the bank opposite the spot where TG indicated the drive was found. It could have been tossed from the bank, but it wasn't dropped.





Even minus the drive, the laptop would not be too buoyant. I think it was still 4-7 pounds, sans drive. I'd have to check, but I remember discussing this a few years ago.



Obviously someone could have moved one or both, after they were in the water. The river was lower at some points.

JJ- I saw your picasa (?) photos of the scene at a relatively high water level. I wonder if there are any photos taken at water levels similar to those on 4/15.[/QUOTE]

My understanding is that the water level was substantially higher on 4/15-22/05. The "island" with trees that separates the "channel" from the rest of the river at that point was completely submerged, again according to TG. It is not in my photo. Much, if not all, of the area where the weeds are in the foreground of the photo were also underwater.

In April of 2005, I'm told the weed area was filled debris, like tree branches. It would be entirely possible that the drive was in the debris and became dislodged later as well, though it could been tossed to the point where it was found.

Just so everyone knows what we are talking about: https://picasaweb.google.com/LookingforRay

[/QUOTE]

Interesting. With all those branches/other debris it would indeed be hard to know exactly what happened to the drive if it got tangled in that.

The point about the drive being moved is also interesting. If the water had gotten that low, maybe some kids wading in the water picked it up, looked at it or played around with it, and then dropped/threw it in another location when they got tired of it. Something I might have done if I was 10 years old and wading in a river.

So many unknowns here. But in my own mind, I can't get rid of the scenario that RFG removed the drive, carried both to the river, and tossed them in.

Two other factors...(1) we are not sure where the drive entered the water...it could have been further upstream, maybe upstream of the railroad bridge. (2) Also there seem to be a couple of things that could have major influences on the currents at high flow: first, there is that small river coming in just a little upstream of SOS, and second, there is the larger island just a little way upstream from the train bridge. If the item(s) entered the water a little further upstream from where the drive was found (like closer to SOS), I think the tributary and that island could have had potentially created patterns in the current to move the laptop further out into the water.

Of course this all depends on where the item(s) entered the water. I agree with JJ, if they went in the water where the drive was found, it is unlikely that the laptop could have washed out to where it ended up.

But consider the swift movement of the water at very high flow rates, and the depth of the water. If you throw an object in, even a heavy one, it will not sink directly down to the bottom in a swift current. It will wash a good distance before it reaches the bottom and eventually becomes hung up on the bottom. Looking at those photos again, I would guess the drive must have entered the water closer to the railroad bridge, to account for the time it would have taken to sink in swift current and get stuck somewhere on the bottom.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

I never said "Mini window," exclusively, though it is possible. I said tossed from a vehicle.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. I had been thinking from a previous discussion you had of the Mini, where you had measured the height of the side window, and that would have allowed for the 'toss of the laptop'.

Now that you say 'a vehicle', puts the second vehicle (the much referenced metallic Silver or Gold one) as a possibility. Do I now stand corrected ?

 

[AllisonS]

BBM

I have been doing this for Ray and for Maura Murray twice a week since April. So far I haven't found anything remotely interesting for either.

Funnily enough, these are the exact two cases that have been drawing me back here for the past few years.

 

[AllisonS]

Edited to add: THANK YOU!! You are a good person to think of this and to do it.

IF you ever want a second pair of eyes, let me know.
Do you think there are enough UIDs for us to not duplicate the effort? Because Ray could be anywhere, not just in PA, if he is deceased..
Maura Murray's missing case is another that breaks my heart. Tara Grinstead's case of being missing, also.

I could look too if someone would guide me on where to start. I tend to only look at a couple of places concerning cases, and stay away from the rest for now.

 

[cj327]

Just noticed this very pertinent video of the bridges at high water..probably higher than on 4/15 I would guess...

Susquehanna River flood stage at Lewisburg - YouTube

 

[AllisonS]

It was about 125 yards upstream. The photo of the bridge is taken from the bank opposite the spot where TG indicated the drive was found. It could have been tossed from the bank, but it wasn't dropped.





Even minus the drive, the laptop would not be too buoyant. I think it was still 4-7 pounds, sans drive. I'd have to check, but I remember discussing this a few years ago.



Obviously someone could have moved one or both, after they were in the water. The river was lower at some points.



My understanding is that the water level was substantially higher on 4/15-22/05. The "island" with trees that separates the "channel" from the rest of the river at that point was completely submerged, again according to TG. It is not in my photo. Much, if not all, of the area where the weeds are in the foreground of the photo were also underwater.

In April of 2005, I'm told the weed area was filled debris, like tree branches. It would be entirely possible that the drive was in the debris and became dislodged later as well, though it could been tossed to the point where it was found.

Just so everyone knows what we are talking about: https://picasaweb.google.com/LookingforRay

I know some have said it couldn't happen, but computers aren't always exactly tough. Could it have been thrown in as one piece, and banged against tree branches or something with that current, that led to the drive being dislodged from the shell?

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

Two other factors...(1) we are not sure where the drive entered the water...it could have been further upstream, maybe upstream of the railroad bridge. (2) Also there seem to be a couple of things that could have major influences on the currents at high flow: first, there is that small river coming in just a little upstream of SOS, and second, there is the larger island just a little way upstream from the train bridge. If the item(s) entered the water a little further upstream from where the drive was found (like closer to SOS), I think the tributary and that island could have had potentially created patterns in the current to move the laptop further out into the water.

Of course this all depends on where the item(s) entered the water. I agree with JJ, if they went in the water where the drive was found, it is unlikely that the laptop could have washed out to where it ended up.

But consider the swift movement of the water at very high flow rates, and the depth of the water. If you throw an object in, even a heavy one, it will not sink directly down to the bottom in a swift current. It will wash a good distance before it reaches the bottom and eventually becomes hung up on the bottom. Looking at those photos again, I would guess the drive must have entered the water closer to the railroad bridge, to account for the time it would have taken to sink in swift current and get stuck somewhere on the bottom.

CJ : For brevity, I highlight this portion of your excellent Post. To me, this is a talking point. From maps, I, too have looked at these areas you mention. They jump out at me as areas of interest, also there is a small park in this same area. Thank you so much for your insight. I cannot re-word how well you have expressed this...I have had much the same impression of all you have said.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

I know some have said it couldn't happen, but computers aren't always exactly tough. Could it have been thrown in as one piece, and banged against tree branches or something with that current, that led to the drive being dislodged from the shell?

Not to totally disagree with you, but I find it more Unlikely, than likely. It takes some effort to remove a hard-drive from a laptop, and I would find it getting more compacted with mud, debris of all sorts, thusly more 'locked' into place. I think the battery pack would kick loose first, and I wonder if that was still found intact with the laptop ? Thanks Allison.