PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #8

[Lord_Chatterly]

LOL, sure! Proceeding West toward the bridge, you could stop, get out and dump the laptop with all of the attention of a "Chinese Fire Drill" during the day. At night, you could probably get out, or move to the passenger side and dump it; or, you could approach from the opposite direction, cross over so that the rail is close to the driver's side and dump it from the driver's side.

It would be less obvious (mo) to walk from the Lewisburg side (along the bikeway area) wait for a lull, and drop the laptop. Seems the expedient way to this "Bad Guy."

Just talked to someone who drove that road more recently. He described the area beyond the bridge to the east as mainly "cowpasture." At night, you might meet an oncoming car about every 5 min. or more.

Bad Guy signing off for a short while. Cookie Squad is here to bake. My expertise is TASTE-TESTER. I wouldn't want to lose my position.

Ok...getting a clearer idea here. Bring us back some Cookies, Maxim...tell 'em the "Bridgers" are waiting on you !!!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Ok good. Now you could do the window frame toss every time, right ? Like 10 times in a row ? No misses, or sloppy drops, right ? (Devil's Advocate, sorry). Huh ?

Easily. You rest it on the window frame, just toss it up a bit and it clears everything.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

You don't even need to slide into the passenger seat.

The Mini is about 66" wide, my care is three inches wider. RFG was 6'; I'm about 2-3" shorter. I was able (using a satchel of phone books that was a bit heavier) to duplicate a toss like that. I got mine to go out about 6-8 feet from the car and it would have cleared the 34" barrier with room to spare. I'm certain that RFG had a better arm that I do.

Ok, so you were comfortable, even with the practice toss with the phone books, right ? I mean, it allowed you a confident feel for committing the act , and getting the good release 'over the edge' ?

Added: I am staying with your 'north side of the bridge ' reasoning here.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

Anybody else want to toss 'Our' Laptop ? Feel free... please 'Weigh In' !!!

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

Easily. You rest it on the window frame, just toss it up a bit and it clears everything.

Oh, I read you...but 10 for 10 from the Free Throw line ?

We spent a lot of time narrowing our location...now we need the Perfect Drop !!!

 

[txsvicki]

Was it ever determined who the woman was at the antique mall? The one that Ray would walk and talk with, go to a different store, then meet back up with in the hall of the mall? Since he was seen to apparently be waiting for someone in the parking lot, maybe they were both waiting for someone else to show up? I still think he must have left voluntarily and didn't want to hurt his girlfriend or family for some reason. If authorities are telling everything, looks like there'd have been more evidence on the home computer or somewhere. If I remember correctly they found evidence on the home computer of looking up how to destroy a hard drive.

 

[SeekingJana]

You got it from the WS forum, you say ? Grrrr !!! I have not had any problems...pretty good firewall on my end. Now, I did have an intrusion attempt from one of the pictures viewed from this thread, but i was still able to continue viewing, as the firewall blocked 'the attack'. Thanks...will be on the lookout !!!

My Norton AV has been displaying a " High Alert" warning when I open WS forum for the past few days. This tells me it's probably one of the ads.

I've posted the specifics of what I am able to determine the threat is in the Jury Room. Also notified a moderator who is online now as soon as I read that Allison's PC has been infected.

They ( I guess the IT people) are working to fix things.
I have a hugely long log file of attempted attacks originating from here in the past week or so. I think there is another threat but I can't find the details in the Norton files.
I'm thinking Norton removed whatever the second thing was..

 

[SeekingJana]

Anybody else want to toss 'Our' Laptop ? Feel free... please 'Weigh In' !!!

I think it's been beat to death, personally.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

Was it ever determined who the woman was at the antique mall? The one that Ray would walk and talk with, go to a different store, then meet back up with in the hall of the mall? Since he was seen to apparently be waiting for someone in the parking lot, maybe they were both waiting for someone else to show up? I still think he must have left voluntarily and didn't want to hurt his girlfriend or family for some reason. If authorities are telling everything, looks like there'd have been more evidence on the home computer or somewhere. If I remember correctly they found evidence on the home computer of looking up how to destroy a hard drive.

http://www.centredaily.com/2011/12/07/3012177/a-blonde.html

The above link will give you perhaps the latest of news we may have on the Ray Gricar case. The new witness has not been confirmed yet at this point, but if anything, the latest we have to go on.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

My Norton AV has been displaying a " High Alert" warning when I open WS forum for the past few days. This tells me it's probably one of the ads.

I've posted the specifics of what I am able to determine the threat is in the Jury Room. Also notified a moderator who is online now as soon as I read that Allison's PC has been infected.

They ( I guess the IT people) are working to fix things.
I have a hugely long log file of attempted attacks originating from here in the past week or so. I think there is another threat but I can't find the details in the Norton files.
I'm thinking Norton removed whatever the second thing was..

Yes, my Norton has sent me messages too...blocked attacks from the firewall. It had happened when I opened up some links posted from here, yesterday. I have also noticed the 'lag' on my browser, too...much worse tonite than usual...the refresh rate is horrible. I may get off from here ... lol ... for a while, anyways !

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

I think it's been beat to death, personally.

Now 'Jana...take your turn. Be nice ... lol



You mean 'Over the Edge' ???

 

[cj327]

Was it ever determined who the woman was at the antique mall? The one that Ray would walk and talk with, go to a different store, then meet back up with in the hall of the mall? Since he was seen to apparently be waiting for someone in the parking lot, maybe they were both waiting for someone else to show up? I still think he must have left voluntarily and didn't want to hurt his girlfriend or family for some reason. If authorities are telling everything, looks like there'd have been more evidence on the home computer or somewhere. If I remember correctly they found evidence on the home computer of looking up how to destroy a hard drive.

These blog entries do a good job of summing up about all of the publicly known evidence supporting the possibility of his walkaway.

To me, it is the simplest scenario, given what we know (though I always keep in mind that homicides probably outnumber "walkaways" by orders of magnitude in this country).

http://www.centredaily.com/2009/04/24/2396796/walkaway.html

http://www.centredaily.com/2010/11/19/2406877/the-least-weak-evidence-for-walkaway.html

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Was it ever determined who the woman was at the antique mall? The one that Ray would walk and talk with, go to a different store, then meet back up with in the hall of the mall? Since he was seen to apparently be waiting for someone in the parking lot, maybe they were both waiting for someone else to show up? I still think he must have left voluntarily and didn't want to hurt his girlfriend or family for some reason. If authorities are telling everything, looks like there'd have been more evidence on the home computer or somewhere. If I remember correctly they found evidence on the home computer of looking up how to destroy a hard drive.

The first report was a woman with dark hair. That woman has never been identified. It is unsure if she was actually with RFG; she may have just been a fellow shopper.

[I'm playing Hamlet tonight. Richard III would be typecasting.]

 

[SeekingJana]

It has been stated here tonight that Namus doesn't have Ray's fingerprints on file.Is this usual for Namus?

We KNOW his fingerprint card is somewhere accessible to LE because they have publicly stated that his fingerprints were on the H2O bottle in the car and on the outside of the driver's window. Called " smudged" but ID'd as Ray's.

Contradiction there. You can't say fingerprints belong to Ray unless you have his fingerprints on file and make a point by point positive comparison. Elementary, dear Watson.

Does this add ANY credibility to a WitSEC program? Let's face it.. If he did go into protective custody of some sort, then the last thing that IDs him are the unchangeable: facial recognition software is said to be almost foolproof, DNA doesn't lie, and fingerprints can't be changed.

Did his fingerprint card become " lost"? Unavailable? Or stored on file elsewhere? Why not shared with Namus???
I don't understand this.

In fact, until I know why his prints aren't in a national database, I consider this to be the largest red flag in the case evidence and procedure as we know it to date.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Ok, so you were comfortable, even with the practice toss with the phone books, right ? I mean, it allowed you a confident feel for committing the act , and getting the good release 'over the edge' ?

Added: I am staying with your 'north side of the bridge ' reasoning here.

After trying it a few times, my back bothered me. For me, that was normal.

When I actually drove across the bridge in 2009, I could not see the barrier to my left. I wasn't trying to get close to it, but just staying in traffic. That is just how low the barrier is, and my window is lower than a Mini's.

If the car was stopped, or moving very slowly anyone with two arms could have tossed it. We can rule out this method for the "One-armed Man" from The Fugitive.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It has been stated here tonight that Namus doesn't have Ray's fingerprints on file.Is this usual for Namus?

We KNOW his fingerprint card is somewhere accessible to LE because they have publicly stated that his fingerprints were on the H2O bottle in the car and on the outside of the driver's window. Called " smudged" but ID'd as Ray's.

Contradiction there. You can't say fingerprints belong to Ray unless you have his fingerprints on file and make a point by point positive comparison. Elementary, dear Watson.

Does this add ANY credibility to a WitSEC program? Let's face it.. If he did go into protective custody of some sort, then the last thing that IDs him are the unchangeable: facial recognition software is said to be almost foolproof, DNA doesn't lie, and fingerprints can't be changed.

Did his fingerprint card become " lost"? Unavailable? Or stored on file elsewhere? Why not shared with Namus???
I don't understand this.

They might not have been filed with NamUs or, for some reason, the don't list.

I'm not certain his fingerprints were on the water bottle; his DNA was there. Do you have link?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

These blog entries do a good job of summing up about all of the publicly known evidence supporting the possibility of his walkaway.

To me, it is the simplest scenario, given what we know (though I always keep in mind that homicides probably outnumber "walkaways" by orders of magnitude in this country).

http://www.centredaily.com/2009/04/24/2396796/walkaway.html

http://www.centredaily.com/2010/11/19/2406877/the-least-weak-evidence-for-walkaway.html

Thanks, but I want to point out that the major piece of evidence, the Southfield sighting, is not corroborated by any independent witnesses or physical evidence. The witness is a strong one, but it is still just one independent witness.

We also have no evidence of how RFG got out of Lewisburg.
[/da]

 

[SeekingJana]

They might not have been filed with NamUs or, for some reason, the don't list.

I'm not certain his fingerprints were on the water bottle; his DNA was there. Do you have link?

Yes, you are right. DNA on H2O bottle, fingerprints said to be HIS on the car window and door, but smudged.

What would be the reason for an edict for " don't list"?
I certainly realize that if he is deceased, there would not be soft tissue remaining in the absence of the body being quickly frozen, as some are, but if he is alive yet unidentified like one might be if comatose, suffering from global amnesia, etc, then fingerprints would establish ID. Dentals could change if he had sustained facial injuries.. just saying.

Point being- if the focus of LE is to FIND Ray Gricar, then why no fingerprints? IF fingerprints are on file with another national database, then which one?
Thanks for any links to other cases where fingerprints were withheld intentionally as well.

 

[SeekingJana]

Was it ever determined who the woman was at the antique mall? The one that Ray would walk and talk with, go to a different store, then meet back up with in the hall of the mall? Since he was seen to apparently be waiting for someone in the parking lot, maybe they were both waiting for someone else to show up? I still think he must have left voluntarily and didn't want to hurt his girlfriend or family for some reason. If authorities are telling everything, looks like there'd have been more evidence on the home computer or somewhere. If I remember correctly they found evidence on the home computer of looking up how to destroy a hard drive.

Hi, Vickie.
First, so good to see you here.

I agree with you on both points.. That a woman is possibly involved somehow, and that his home PC may have given them pertinent info. The chances are great that we absolutely do not yet know if they found anything else of value on the home PC that he and Patty used together. It took them years to tell us that they found the searches. :banghead:

I keep thinking " If he wanted to know how to destroy a hard drive, WHY didn't he look it up on the computer that ended up in the river?"
Was the HD or another portion of the laptop already inoperable for some unknown reason? Was he hiding the laptop from Patty in a way of " Oh, that old thing is upstairs in the closet in the old leather case, but you know I use my new work PC and this new desktop we have together, honey".. OR did he leave a clue to see how smart the police were of whom he didn't always seem to respect the collective IQs?
Or did he search, perhaps erase his HD with the program he is said to have purchased to do so, and something else happened to his laptop?

Back to Occam's Razor style of thinking--Since it has been determined by LE that Ray and not Patty made those searches and taking into account his seemingly very clear comments to various people about erasing the HD of the older model county- issued laptop for some time, then I think he either didn't KNOW that Google searches would or could be recovered ( he was woefully tech-impaired, they say, just like they say he was financial- investment impaired), or he did leave a Hansel and Gretel type morsel of his intent. It has been said by some of his friends that ( paraphrasing perhaps slightly " Disappearing is just like something he would do to show the local LE how he could always outsmart them". )
I THINK that quote was not from Investigation Discovery's " Disappeared" segment on him anyway. I think Dateline did one on him that had more interviews and Steve Sloane said that in his talking head segment.

Do you go to You Tube? Look up his Disappeared show. One hour ( minus commercial ad time) is devoted to his disappearance, and it has been slightly updated to include a couple of bits about the Sandusky sex abuse case/ cases.
I only have a link to the older segment.
This is it.. Disappeared - A Family's Curse - YouTube

It's extremely watchable. I think it covers the broad outline of what is known. There are a few possible small errors, but it doesn't seem slanted to one theory or the other to me.. Just that he is missing. I think Patty's demeanor is very interesting to watch in her talking head ( TH) segments. She seems to be both tearful at times, and also visibly angry. ( JJ explains that this was taped right after she became aware of the potential MW with Ray in Lewisburg).
I don't know if I would really hold anger at a person I said was my " soulmate" if the other option was that he was dead and his remains were probably lying out in the open like an old dead dog in a remote location. That reminds me- the segment also makes it very clear that the Susquehanna river was searched starting the next day, and they even show cadaver ( or other scent dogs) perched on the bows of the boats in their life jackets. RME.
However, it is somewhat questionable whether the wetlands preserve just past the other side of the bridge was searched on foot. No grid searches have ever been shown. I don't think they were done, to be honest.

The only other evidence besides potential witness sightings which might point to a woman being with him or in his car is the presence of cigarette ash. He was a vocal anti-smoking person, like I am. But someone burned a cig. in his car or tracked a very small bit of ash in on the passenger's side shortly before police opened it. ( They report the smell of cigarette, meaning it hadn't been there long and there was probably more smoky smell before then).

Do you know about the young blonde big- haired lady possibly seen by a Mrs. Ivy Butterworth of Milton PA sitting with Ray on the day he disappeared? It's a new development, as in- within the past 30 days. Her daughter was in her early 20's and working at the SOS.
Lord Chatterly has graciously provided us with the entire story, near the end of Ray's thread #7. Ivy Butterworth came forward when Dateline was there taping a new show about Ray. JJ says the show will air next Friday night.

I think Ray and possibly a woman threw the laptop parts into the Susquehanna river because the PC was the last link to his old ID.. He left the other traceable techno things because they weren't legally his and because he didn't need them: Patti's car with the PFo vanity license plate and his county- issued cell phone.
I don't think it's a huge mystery about either part of the PC- he left what he didn't need and took his wallet, sunglasses and, I think, a watch.

IF the woman went with him, then I suppose they drove out of Lewisburg together. JJ counters with " No one Ray knew is missing".
I counter with " Ray may have had people in his life who were not known to the other people in his life" ( More than 6 degrees of separation, IOW).
OR she was not a helpful presence, but a malevolent one. We don't know, but I suspect that LE or the FBI has a good idea by now.

I'm starting to give some sort of witness protection program a second thought. I had never really considered it as a possibility until it was determined recently that Ray's fingerprint card is apparently not in the database with his other info at NamUS. I would think that if they are entered into another database, then NamUS would have a notation of " available via CODIS" or wherever, or if they are being withheld from the public, it would say " withheld- contact Bellefonte Police Department for specifics".

I hope I have been accurate. JJ's blog which can be found here:
http://www.centredaily.com/ under the heading " Sporadic Posts" or through a search on the term " Gricar" is very detailed. IMO, some ideas are his opinion only, but no one that I am aware of has put more time and effort into keeping his case before the public.

Have you read Karen Arnold's website " Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury? This is the link to the multi-page " legal brief".
http://sites.google.com/site/gricardisappearance/

I read it when it was newly posted to the Internet, and was so PO'd by her calling Patty only by the term " the Paramour" that I discarded her accounts of what she saw, heard and knew from 18 years of working with Ray. It was a mistake to discount her words. They have a great deal of merit, IMO.
We have recently had a discussion here ( again, near the end of thread #7 on this case) about how we all don't like the term as it means " illicit lover" per Merriam Webster and she was not such a person. After pushing past my distaste for that one thing, I have learned quite a lot about Ray Gricar and how Karen Arnold says he was acting and so forth before he disappeared. I haven't learned why Karen dislikes Patty, though.

Sorry this is so long. We have posted together many times in the past, and I felt a need to fill in the blanks somewhat.

IF I have made errors, they are honest ones. I have tried to summarize what we have been interested in recently ( other than the rate at which 2 objects entering the water will sink, float and whistle "Dixie", LOL).
Good work was done on the laptop and HD sinking also, so J/K.

I hope we can go on now to discuss some other things, such as why Ray might have taken a detour to or through Centre Hall, and what he may have done there or nearby if he did detour.
So many unanswered questions,and so little public info.
I don't even know if Stacy Parks- Miller and the special task force are still doing anything.. reminds me a lot of the JonBenet case and Mary Lacey's promises and flurry of press releases when she was first elected in Boulder.. turned out to be just smoke and mirrors, with one nut by the name of John Mark Carr thrown into the mix..

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Oh, I read you...but 10 for 10 from the Free Throw line ?

We spent a lot of time narrowing our location...now we need the Perfect Drop !!!

The thing that you have to worry about is the behind you rear-ending you. You might have to take out your seat belt. Someone who couldn't drive, couldn't use their arms, or was very short, might have a problem; no one else would. The car could not have hugely wide, like 4-5 feet.

I'd say 10 out of 10.

It just as easily could have been some in a passenger seat. On foot at night is possible (for a healthy person). From a boat is possible. Wading out sometime before June 1 and dropping it there is possible.

I certainly could not prove that it was toss from a car, much less the Mini. Where the laptop ended up, however, is consistent with that scenario.