PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #8

[J. J. in Phila]

I keep thinking " If he wanted to know how to destroy a hard drive, WHY didn't he look it up on the computer that ended up in the river?"

This one I can answer.

The laptop did not have a wireless connection, so RFG would have to hook it into the Internet to search. The home desktop was on the Internet already. I don't know if he had a printer, but, if so, had he wished to print out instructions, he'd have to hook that in to the laptop as well.

RFG may not have been worried about someone finding out that he was looking, because:

A. He was planning to come back, so no one would ever look.

B. He wasn't planning to come back, but he knew that it would take a while to search the history of his searches and that it would not be first priority. In fact, LE didn't discover it until late 2006, about 18 months after he disappeared.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

The thing that you have to worry about is the behind you rear-ending you. You might have to take out your seat belt. Someone who couldn't drive, couldn't use their arms, or was very short, might have a problem; no one else would. The car could not have hugely wide, like 4-5 feet.

I'd say 10 out of 10.

It just as easily could have been some in a passenger seat. On foot at night is possible (for a healthy person). From a boat is possible. Wading out sometime before June 1 and dropping it there is possible.

I certainly could not prove that it was toss from a car, much less the Mini. Where the laptop ended up, however, is consistent with that scenario.

Ok good. You have been patient with my 'prodding'...lol.
Yes, I think we are in a narrow playing field here: North side of bridge, and the need for the Perfect Drop.

Maxim had offered some good insights, too. For brevity, here is mine: From the car....and the main reason for the North side of the bridge: the walkway has a barrier...a tad restrictive. My approach is this: From West to East. Stop in lane. Get out...walk to edge, let it hang straight over the edge, for sideways hit into the river (helps ensure the laptop plunging into the water). Then, off into the car for remaining trip across the bridge. Time factor: not even 20 seconds. Clean, easy, and the Perfect Drop. Especially at nite. That is why I had concerns of traffic volumes. Ok, thanks to all on this, I had to throw my idea into it, right ?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Ok good. You have been patient with my 'prodding'...lol.
Yes, I think we are in a narrow playing field here: North side of bridge, and the need for the Perfect Drop.

Maxim had offered some good insights, too. For brevity, here is mine: From the car....and the main reason for the North side of the bridge: the walkway has a barrier...a tad restrictive. My approach is this: From West to East. Stop in lane. Get out...walk to edge, let it hang straight over the edge, for sideways hit into the river (helps ensure the laptop plunging into the water). Then, off into the car for remaining trip across the bridge. Time factor: not even 20 seconds. Clean, easy, and the Perfect Drop. Especially at nite. That is why I had concerns of traffic volumes. Ok, thanks to all on this, I had to throw my idea into it, right ?

Except for the getting out of the part, I agree. Someone disposing of the laptop, if not exceptionally short, and having two arms, and not having an exceedingly wide car, could have "tossed" it, even if in the driver's seat. I think it is easier than you suggest.

Specifically, is it possible that RFG could have disposed of the laptop at the point where it was found, from the driver's side of the Mini? Yes, easily. Is that what happened? I don't know.

And I'm going to do a blog citing some of this discussion, because it is simply that good. Critical thinking, research, experimentation. The chattering class at its best.

 

[Maxim]

Ok good. You have been patient with my 'prodding'...lol.
Yes, I think we are in a narrow playing field here: North side of bridge, and the need for the Perfect Drop.

Maxim had offered some good insights, too. For brevity, here is mine: From the car....and the main reason for the North side of the bridge: the walkway has a barrier...a tad restrictive. My approach is this: From West to East. Stop in lane. Get out...walk to edge, let it hang straight over the edge, for sideways hit into the river (helps ensure the laptop plunging into the water). Then, off into the car for remaining trip across the bridge. Time factor: not even 20 seconds. Clean, easy, and the Perfect Drop. Especially at nite. That is why I had concerns of traffic volumes. Ok, thanks to all on this, I had to throw my idea into it, right ?

Two persons in a car, at night crossing west to east, could drop the laptop cutting your 20 sec. almost in half. There's no need to stay in the lane; looks like you could pull over close and the passenger drops the computer.

At night, a black object dropped off the bridge would hardly be visible.

 

[Maxim]

Except for the getting out of the part, I agree. Someone disposing of the laptop, if not exceptionally short, and having two arms, and not having an exceedingly wide car, could have "tossed" it, even if in the driver's seat. I think it is easier than you suggest.

Specifically, is it possible that RFG could have disposed of the laptop at the point where it was found, from the driver's side of the Mini? Yes, easily. Is that what happened? I don't know.

And I'm going to do a blog citing some of this discussion, because it is simply that good. Critical thinking, research, experimentation. The chattering class at its best.

JJ, is there a witness to RG "fiddling" with the laptop? If so, LE must know where and approx. when. Do you have any information about this?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ, is there a witness to RG "fiddling" with the laptop?

You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment.

If so, LE must know where and approx. when. Do you have any information about this?

I have no information on that.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

Except for the getting out of the part, I agree. Someone disposing of the laptop, if not exceptionally short, and having two arms, and not having an exceedingly wide car, could have "tossed" it, even if in the driver's seat. I think it is easier than you suggest.

Specifically, is it possible that RFG could have disposed of the laptop at the point where it was found, from the driver's side of the Mini? Yes, easily. Is that what happened? I don't know.

And I'm going to do a blog citing some of this discussion, because it is simply that good. Critical thinking, research, experimentation. The chattering class at its best.

I don't know for sure of what I call the "Perfect Drop" either. Just wanted to see the outstanding input that all have contributed here. Sometimes, I try to imagine carrying out the actual deeds as they may have happened. In this case, what is the Path of Least Resistance, to offer the outcome that we seem to already know.

I am sure we will all be looking forward to your Blog, JJ.
My hat is off to all those who really dug in on this. Well said, JJ .

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I don't know for sure of what I call the "Perfect Drop" either. Just wanted to see the outstanding input that all have contributed here. Sometimes, I try to imagine carrying out the actual deeds as they may have happened. In this case, what is the Path of Least Resistance, to offer the outcome that we seem to already know.

I am sure we will all be looking forward to your Blog, JJ.
My hat is off to all those who really dug in on this. Well said, JJ .

I was planning to repost the link to the photos and really go into some of the points raised here. I was was quite impressed with the specific gravity calculation, and even thinking about it. Thoughtful analysis.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

Two persons in a car, at night crossing west to east, could drop the laptop cutting your 20 sec. almost in half. There's no need to stay in the lane; looks like you could pull over close and the passenger drops the computer.

At night, a black object dropped off the bridge would hardly be visible.

Excellent ! Now I wonder if the Mini (if that was the that was used) would have left clues as to a passenger having been in that seat. Not talking of the ciggie ashes so much...footprints, cheek prints (lol)...and the like.

Good clear, and good criminal mind thinking, Maxim !
BTW: how did the cookies turn out ?

 

[AllisonS]

Ok good. Now you could do the window frame toss every time, right ? Like 10 times in a row ? No misses, or sloppy drops, right ? (Devil's Advocate, sorry). Huh ?

Ok, so do you think the experiment would be different for a man vs a woman, counting average height, strength, etc?

 

[AllisonS]

You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment.


.

Oh F.U. ...and for those that do not get the reference, I am not attacking JJ, lol! I miss my days in the UK sometimes, just for the TV.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

Ok, so do you think the experiment would be different for a man vs a woman, counting average height, strength, etc?

Very good question, Allison. I would say those differences would come into play, most certainly. Not so much as gender differences, but height, build, and a certain amount of strength, most certainly are factors.

So, that having been said...you are now our Female driver...let's say the 'Blonde', ok ? Or the LMW. I now hand You the keys to the Mini ... how do you see it ?
(hehe ... Devil's Advocate thingy)

 

[cj327]

This one I can answer.

The laptop did not have a wireless connection, so RFG would have to hook it into the Internet to search. The home desktop was on the Internet already. I don't know if he had a printer, but, if so, had he wished to print out instructions, he'd have to hook that in to the laptop as well.

RFG may not have been worried about someone finding out that he was looking, because:

A. He was planning to come back, so no one would ever look.

B. He wasn't planning to come back, but he knew that it would take a while to search the history of his searches and that it would not be first priority. In fact, LE didn't discover it until late 2006, about 18 months after he disappeared.

Good question and good answer regarding the wireless issue. I was thinking about this one earlier and going to comment but didn't get around to it.

I used to have a gov't-issued laptop (within last 5 yrs) and it did not have wireless - furthermore, at least for part of the time I used it, it could only connect to the internet via my wired connection at work. Not at home. It was designed only to connect via the work network for security reasons. That was also why it did not have wireless. Now, I have no idea about the computers in the DA's office, but just thought I'd share my particular experience. Even if these security limitations were not in place, if RFG was semi-technologically challenged (read that somewhere), he might not have been able to set up the laptop internet connection from home, esp back in 2004-2005 when those things were a little harder than they are today.

Plus, we don't know how much law enforcement knows regarding his computer activities that they simply haven't released. We might only have a little bit.

 

[AllisonS]

Very good question, Allison. I would say those differences would come into play, most certainly. Not so much as gender differences, but height, build, and a certain amount of strength, most certainly are factors.

So, that having been said...you are now our Female driver...let's say the 'Blonde', ok ? Or the LMW. I now hand You the keys to the Mini ... how do you see it ?
(hehe ... Devil's Advocate thingy)

Ok, I am 5'6, average height for a woman, but probably stronger than the average woman. I could easily throw it the same distance as JJ, 6-8 feet, but I would worry about accuracy. We women over 35 didn't grow up necessarily all playing sports, although a good percentage do nowadays. I am not super coordinated, and my throw might be off the target. I would be afraid of throwing it from a moving car and 'missing'. I would be inclined to either bring someone else with me to do the drop or else quickly pull over and get out to toss it overboard.

 

[AllisonS]

Excellent ! Now I wonder if the Mini (if that was the that was used) would have left clues as to a passenger having been in that seat. Not talking of the ciggie ashes so much...footprints, cheek prints (lol)...and the like.

Good clear, and good criminal mind thinking, Maxim !
BTW: how did the cookies turn out ?

Something I would think about is makeup. From experience, I know that some seatbelts can rub on the upper part of the neck or even brush the cheek if you turn just right. If someone wears foundation makeup or powder, it could rub off on the seatbelt (or even the seat if they leaned across to make the toss). Makeup is pretty specific-if it was different from PF's brand, or if she didn't wear makeup, it would be pretty easy to determine that it came from an outside source.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

Good question and good answer regarding the wireless issue. I was thinking about this one earlier and going to comment but didn't get around to it.

I used to have a gov't-issued laptop (within last 5 yrs) and it did not have wireless - furthermore, at least for part of the time I used it, it could only connect to the internet via my wired connection at work. Not at home. It was designed only to connect via the work network for security reasons. That was also why it did not have wireless. Now, I have no idea about the computers in the DA's office, but just thought I'd share my particular experience. Even if these security limitations were not in place, if RFG was semi-technologically challenged (read that somewhere), he might not have been able to set up the laptop internet connection from home, esp back in 2004-2005 when those things were a little harder than they are today.

Plus, we don't know how much law enforcement knows regarding his computer activities that they simply haven't released. We might only have a little bit.

You have really said it here. I was just re-reading JJ's Post on this, and you beat me to the punch. Same exact point, of the wireless nature of the laptop.

Your experience says a ton. To me, the non-wireless nature of that laptop (and probably the nature of how it would have to be wired in, USB or ethernet) is puzzling.
Now I really have some thinking to do...seems like that laptop was truly more of an Off-Line for useage. Many thanks.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Oh F.U. ...and for those that do not get the reference, I am not attacking JJ, lol! I miss my days in the UK sometimes, just for the TV.

Not an attack in the least. You just appointed me Prime Minister, and you got the reference.

House of Cards Theme - YouTube

I think you understand my answer.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

Something I would think about is makeup. From experience, I know that some seatbelts can rub on the upper part of the neck or even brush the cheek if you turn just right. If someone wears foundation makeup or powder, it could rub off on the seatbelt (or even the seat if they leaned across to make the toss). Makeup is pretty specific-if it was different from PF's brand, or if she didn't wear makeup, it would be pretty easy to determine that it came from an outside source.

Wow...great stuff. Ok...now let me ask you. What if you had been in the passenger seat ? What about you leaving your 'butt' prints (sorry, no harm intended here). Do you think that would have, could have happened ? Footprints of some kind...carpet imprints, not necessarily dirty, too.
What do you think ?

Love the female perspective here !!!

 

[AllisonS]

It has been stated here tonight that Namus doesn't have Ray's fingerprints on file.Is this usual for Namus?

We KNOW his fingerprint card is somewhere accessible to LE because they have publicly stated that his fingerprints were on the H2O bottle in the car and on the outside of the driver's window. Called " smudged" but ID'd as Ray's.

Contradiction there. You can't say fingerprints belong to Ray unless you have his fingerprints on file and make a point by point positive comparison. Elementary, dear Watson.

Does this add ANY credibility to a WitSEC program? Let's face it.. If he did go into protective custody of some sort, then the last thing that IDs him are the unchangeable: facial recognition software is said to be almost foolproof, DNA doesn't lie, and fingerprints can't be changed.

Did his fingerprint card become " lost"? Unavailable? Or stored on file elsewhere? Why not shared with Namus???
I don't understand this.

In fact, until I know why his prints aren't in a national database, I consider this to be the largest red flag in the case evidence and procedure as we know it to date.

If my loved one were missing I would have every possible detail I could think of in the description. I would rather have some false positives come up that could later be eliminated, than the one case I am looking for be missed because there were no details to match.

The NamUs info on Gricar seems oddly sparse to me. I realize that there is more info on it that is available to LE or officials, but it would seem to me that the more information that is made public, the better the chance of something being matched up. It does seem odd.

 

[AllisonS]

Not an attack in the least. You just appointed me Prime Minister, and you got the reference.

House of Cards Theme - YouTube

I think you understand my answer.

Absolutely!

On a side note, those that do not get the reference should watch this series. Netflix has it available for online streaming...I just watched it again last month.