PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #8

[J. J. in Phila]

An interesting idea!

BTW, on case 1712:
Est. range date of death was 3-5 years. RG had only been missing for 20.5 *months*(approx.) by Jan '07. Shoe size would indicate the victim could have been taller.

In DOE lingo, does partial skeleton mean not fully decomposed or not a complete skeleton. I'd go with the latter, but do you know?

I think it means not all of the bones are there.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

LMW was not, from the description. I'm not comfortable with the IB sighting. Too many unknown variables.

I'm not that comfy with the IB thing either...just that it's possibly the best "New" thing we have to go on ... let's give IB a chance for now. I'm not done quite yet with IB...more to be revealed with upcoming episode on Friday,
Investigation Discovery.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

An interesting idea!

BTW, on case 1712:
Est. range date of death was 3-5 years. RG had only been missing for 20.5 *months*(approx.) by Jan '07. Shoe size would indicate the victim could have been taller.

In DOE lingo, does partial skeleton mean not fully decomposed or not a complete skeleton. I'd go with the latter, but do you know?

Most likely the latter...I see JJ concurs, too. 3 to 5 years later a skeleton would still be intact...now having looked at some of the comments in "Allison's" Doe site, are added notes, such as "missing mandible", etc. Pretty interesting stuff here...chilling, too.

 

[SeekingJana]

This one I can answer.

The laptop did not have a wireless connection, so RFG would have to hook it into the Internet to search. The home desktop was on the Internet already. I don't know if he had a printer, but, if so, had he wished to print out instructions, he'd have to hook that in to the laptop as well.

RFG may not have been worried about someone finding out that he was looking, because:

A. He was planning to come back, so no one would ever look.

B. He wasn't planning to come back, but he knew that it would take a while to search the history of his searches and that it would not be first priority. In fact, LE didn't discover it until late 2006, about 18 months after he disappeared.

Playing devil's advocate here:
1) Why couldn't he use dial up ? Are you saying that he only used the older drowned laptop as file storage?
2) If he had pen and paper, write the info down. Ms. Arnold has said that he was a " write it down" vs computer dependept kind of guy anyway.

I think your reasons have merit, just trying to think like a very orderly person would regarding something they wanted to obliterate, or certainly appeaedr to want to obliterate.

 

[SeekingJana]

Most likely the latter...I see JJ concurs, too. 3 to 5 years later a skeleton would still be intact...now having looked at some of the comments in "Allison's" Doe site, are added notes, such as "missing mandible", etc. Pretty interesting stuff here...chilling, too.

Whoa, Nelly.
I could be wrong, but from my reading through the years--
A skeleton can be" partial" for a number of reasons. A newly deceased body can have a partial skeleton due to intentional total or partial dismemberment.The odds of having all 206 bones present after the body has decomposed in the elements are slim, IMO. There is the natural process of cartilage disintegration which holds bones and joints together. The rate of degeneration is variable depending on the environment in which the skeletal remains were placed./ found. Animal scattering, partial dismemberment to try to disguise ID or to make the body fit into a certain space.. The reasons for disarticulation are as numerous as the CODs.

Condition of remains should not be an over-riding factor, IMO.
Condition of other things such as dental work to teeth, if found, definitely. Condition of bones internally, definitely, in relation to old healed fractures and disease processes affecting bone health. ( things such as osteoarthritis or severe childhood malnutrition but also others).

:truce: JMO.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Playing devil's advocate here:
1) Why couldn't he use dial up ? Are you saying that he only used the older drowned laptop as file storage?
2) If he had pen and paper, write the info down. Ms. Arnold has said that he was a " write it down" vs computer dependept kind of guy anyway.

I think your reasons have merit, just trying to think like a very orderly person would regarding something they wanted to obliterate, or certainly appeaedr to want to obliterate.

1. Even with a dial up, he'd still have to hook it up to the Internet.

2. Instructions could be substantial.

 

[SeekingJana]

I am looking through NamUs cases, and on many of them it lists decedents who have been ruled out as being the UID. Many of these are cases where the demographics match those of RG's and the body is in a state where just looking at it physically would be impossible to rule him out. I have yet though to come across a case where he is one of the decedents that have been ruled out. What gives?

Again, if I were missing someone I would be contacting LE about each potential match and asking them for an exclusion check. I would drive them crazy, but no one would be able to say I didn't want my loved one to be found.

BBM. I'd say that the lack of any R/O on Ray means that no LE or other groups are looking at remains to identify Ray Gricar.. wouldn't you?

ITA about yout last statement. It is distressing to me that he has people who can go on TV and profess their undying love in a sound byte but not look at the documented remains.
Also, I'd say their searches after he was reported missing were extremely limited, according to what Karen Arnold had to say.
I can best conclude that the family and Patty decided to either leave it all up to LE, or they decided he most likely did walk away.. not sure which, or if possibly both.

I absolutely do not think, from the televised segments done on him, that LE is looking for his remains. I also still want to know why his fingerprints are not available!!!!

 

[SeekingJana]

1. Even with a dial up, he'd still have to hook it up to the Internet.

2. Instructions could be substantial.

JJ, if a person has an Internet Provider in place, establishing a dial up connection in 2005 would only take a few minutes ( IF he was away from home.)
Besides, how did he use the computer in the first place? apparently through a DIAL UP moddm connection.
So all he had to do at home was to plug in the phone line and go to work. No new connection set up would be necessary unless he had changed Internet service providers since the last known use of the old work computer. I think it's likely that he did use this laptop some for his own purposes. With an Internet connection.

Could be, but weren't. He found his answer. He purchased a program.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ, if a person has an Internet Provider in place, establishing a dial up connection in 2005 would only take a few minutes ( IF he was away from home.)
Besides, how did he use the computer in the first place? apparently through a DIAL UP moddm connection.
So all he had to do at home was to plug in the phone line and go to work. No new connection set up would be necessary unless he had changed Internet service providers since the last known use of the old work computer. I think it's likely that he did use this laptop some for his own purposes. With an Internet connection.

Could be, but weren't. He found his answer. He purchased a program.

He'd still have to hook it up, and if it was like mine was, insert a disk and load it.

 

[cj327]

JJ-
When law enforcement released additional information on this case in the past (e.g., RFG's internet searches, info on witnesses), is your feeling that it was in direct response to public pressure, or do you think it might have been a decision resulting from new personnel working on the investigation?

Based on your experience, is this slow trickle of information by LE unusual for an unsolved case (murder or missing person)? Karen Arnold has an opinion on that obviously. Why do you think they told us what they did when they did? Maybe I missed a blog entry on this.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

Playing devil's advocate here:
1) Why couldn't he use dial up ? Are you saying that he only used the older drowned laptop as file storage?
2) If he had pen and paper, write the info down. Ms. Arnold has said that he was a " write it down" vs computer dependept kind of guy anyway.

I think your reasons have merit, just trying to think like a very orderly person would regarding something they wanted to obliterate, or certainly appeaedr to want to obliterate.

To add to your comments here, just why the focus on the Internet hookup ? There could be some good reasons for Off Line type work. My very own laptop, I used probably more Off Line, as opposed to having an online connection.

In my case, it was off line for GPS (Global Positioning System), and then when back home, I may use it for on line things. Now in Ray Gricar's useage, and the criticism of his lacking of certain PC skills, perhaps files were added to his laptop, say at the office from flash drives, or the like ? Here we go with the arrows back to Patty. I say that as an example...she could have loaded necessary data from the workplace for him, for his off line use at home...like added data as cases were being investigated. I am sure when he was doing his work at the Courthouse, many tasks were handed off to others, such as this. Just a thought.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ-
When law enforcement released additional information on this case in the past (e.g., RFG's internet searches, info on witnesses), is your feeling that it was in direct response to public pressure, or do you think it might have been a decision resulting from new personnel working on the investigation?

Some of it was released with increased media. Some was released around the anniversaries in an election year.

Based on your experience, is this slow trickle of information by LE unusual for an unsolved case (murder or missing person)? Karen Arnold has an opinion on that obviously. Why do you think they told us what they did when they did? Maybe I missed a blog entry on this.

My experience was not great. In a murder case in State College, the police released a lot of information about 5 years out. We are approaching seven years.

Chief Weaver's last comments about the family news conference were quite interesting.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The comment from Chief Weaver was here: Police: Missing DA investigated Sandusky - YouTube

The former chief said that he thought it was suicide; the former DA said that he thought it was walkaway. RFG's closest friend said that he thinks RFG is alive. http://articles.philly.com/2011-07-31/news/29835864_1_investigators-retirement-plans-ray-gricar

 

[cj327]

The comment from Chief Weaver was here: Police: Missing DA investigated Sandusky - YouTube

The former chief said that he thought it was suicide; the former DA said that he thought it was walkaway. RFG's closest friend said that he thinks RFG is alive. http://articles.philly.com/2011-07-31/news/29835864_1_investigators-retirement-plans-ray-gricar

Thanks. As much as I've read about this, for some reason I never watched that video. I guess it's also possible there is just not much more info for LE to release.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Thanks. As much as I've read about this, for some reason I never watched that video. I guess it's also possible there is just not much more info for LE to release.

I think there is a little more.

 

[Maxim]

I think there is a little more.

Meaning the rest of the iceberg?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Meaning the rest of the iceberg?

Despite the fact that the BPD has released a lot to date, they never released the cell phone records, even redacted. That is an example.
BTW: The "iceberg comment" dealt with what the police had looked at, not necessarily what they found.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

I have been trying to get more information on Ivy Butterworth, to no avail right now. Maxim, have you ever known of IB ? I had heard she had a lounge or bar up in the Lewisburg area up till a few years ago ? Do you have a take on that ?

 

[Maxim]

I have been trying to get more information on Ivy Butterworth, to no avail right now. Maxim, have you ever known of IB ? I had heard she had a lounge or bar up in the Lewisburg area up till a few years ago ? Do you have a take on that ?

No, hadn't heard of her until the discussion here.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

No, hadn't heard of her until the discussion here.

Ok...figured I'd ask...I suppose more will be revealed about her, possibly soon. Discussions have been something here lately, eh ?