PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #9

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm surprised there has been no comment on this statement. Paterno "ok'd" no charges against Sandusky. Please tell me someone is investigating that claim.

I think someone might be working on it. The 1998 incident deserves much more scrutiny.

I do believe that JKA did not make decision and had the input only for those several days. I also believe that had she become more involved (or if RFG had listened to her, possibly), there would have been a prosecution.

While I think she was wrong in not talking to Freeh, I think much of those comments about her were off the mark. Ironic, coming from me.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

Perhaps JKA is in fear of being disappeared herself if she talks.

wm

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Perhaps JKA is in fear of being disappeared herself if she talks.

wm

She did talk to the grand jury, where she was required to. She does not want to talk about it publicly, however.


I think it is on the first page of this thread.

 

[nittanylioness234]

If all the data on Gricar's hard drive was irretrievable, how does anyone know it is really the hard drive from his computer? Someone could have purchased the same hard drive, thrown it into the river, and taken his. And would that even matter?

Also, I remember reading that the Sandusky grand jury was the 3rd of 4th grand jury to investigate him... might a grand jury have been investigating in 1998, when Gricar closed the case... and/or in 2001?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

If all the data on Gricar's hard drive was irretrievable, how does anyone know it is really the hard drive from his computer? Someone could have purchased the same hard drive, thrown it into the river, and taken his. And would that even matter?

We do know that the drive was purchased in 2003-04 along with the laptop. That precludes anything from 1998, unless it was copied from a still older source (that has also vanished).

Further, we do know that RFG had a desire to get rid of the data on the drive. He talked to a defense attorney about it, about a year prior to his disappearance; I wish I could shed some light on who. LE also said he did the searches on how to destroy the drive.

It is probable that he did toss the drive. There isn't too much suspicious in that. It could be related to walkaway or suicide, but be coincidental to murder.

Also, I remember reading that the Sandusky grand jury was the 3rd of 4th grand jury to investigate him... might a grand jury have been investigating in 1998, when Gricar closed the case... and/or in 2001?

Second group of grand jurors, but not a second grand jury; the AG has said that was the only one. The report is almost always available, and should be in discovery. Also, there would be a record of it in the DA's Office, if RFG petitioned for one. The Centre County DA's Office has absolutely no records on the 1998 investigation.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm surprised there has been no comment on this statement. Paterno "ok'd" no charges against Sandusky. Please tell me someone is investigating that claim.

Ganim clarified the tweet.

@sganim



I guess some misunderstood? ‪#Paterno‬ knew & was ok with no chgs in 1998, victim 6 mom told me. More clear?

That is clear from the Freeh Report.

 

[BigCat]

Perhaps JKA is in fear of being disappeared herself if she talks.

wm

It seems like she's mostly concerned with not publically critizing a colleague. It's some kind of code, I suppose. From what I can gather, that's what she appears to be accusing JJ of doing in the cases of RFG and Luna.

"Disinformation agent"?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It seems like she's mostly concerned with not publically critizing a colleague. It's some kind of code, I suppose. From what I can gather, that's what she appears to be accusing JJ of doing in the cases of RFG and Luna.

"Disinformation agent"?

As for RFG, her classic quote about me, "All amazing knowledge for a disabled guy living in Philly." The problem is, LE and the press checked me out and discover, I am "a disabled guy in Philly." Suddenly, I became something other than a guy who posts on message board. At the time, my major source was Google.

If she is following some sort of code, she needs to understand that it neither helping her, or RFG (especially if murdered). Frankly, I think if she had been the one that handled 1998, all of us would not be in the mess we are today; she actually might be one of those people that tried to do the right thing back then. Granted, she should have spoken to Freeh, but I don't think she covering up anything she did.

I pointed out on another thread, I'm by nature unemotional, logical, and cold. I'm in control enough to turn emotions on and off, or at least postpone expressing them. Some people can't. I do understand that.

 

[Hardymum]

Interesting timeline parallels between Vicky Triponey's experiences at Penn State and the date RFG disappeared:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/15/us/triponey-paterno-penn-state/index.html

"And then one day in late 2004, as disciplinary sanctions were being considered against a member of the football team, she received a visit from Paterno's wife, who had tutored the player.

He's a good kid, Sue Paterno said. Could they give him a break?

Triponey realized then that she wasn't in Kansas anymore. Or even Connecticut.

By the next year, 2005, she was battling Paterno himself over who controlled how football players were disciplined. Paterno also chafed over enforcing Penn State's code of conduct off campus.

Spanier called a meeting at which Paterno angrily dominated the conversation, Triponey recalled. She summarized the meeting in an e-mail to Spanier, Athletic Director Tim Curley and others, complaining that Paterno "is insistent that he knows best how to discipline his players" and that her department should back off.

Opinion: Penn State report is a warning to all of of us

She noted that Paterno preferred to keep the public in the dark about player infractions involving violence, and he pushed for not enforcing the student code of conduct off campus. She added that having "a major problem with Coach Paterno should not be our concern" in making disciplinary decisions.

"I must insist that the efforts to put pressure on us and try to influence our decisions related to specific cases ... simply MUST STOP," she wrote. "The calls and pleas from coaches, board members and others when we are considering a case are indeed putting us in a position that does treat football players differently and with greater privilege ... and it appears on our end to be a deliberate effort to use the power of the football program to sway our decisions in a way that is beneficial to the football program."

Curley, who once played for Paterno and according to the Freeh report was widely considered his "errand boy," responded to Triponey by explaining "Joe's frustrations with the system" and the "larger issues that bother him."

Triponey wrote back, complaining about Paterno's "disregard for our role and disrespect for the process." She added, "I don't see how we can continue to trust those inside the football program with confidential information if we are indeed adversaries."
-------
and then in 2007:

"Spanier came to her home and sat in her living room after Paterno lost his temper at the meeting about the players involved in the brawl. She said he told her, "Well, Vicky, you are one of a handful of people, four or five people, who have seen the dark side of Joe Paterno. We're going to have to do something about it."

She shakes her head, recalling that conversation now. "'Doing something about it,'" she says, "ended with me being gone."

--------------------------

Makes me wonder if whatever she and Paterno were disagreeing about in late 2004 and early 2005 was something RFG would have also known about, as an off-campus issue....because that quote from Spanier really gave me the chills.

 

[LaLaw2000]

The report left me speechless, and that is hard to do. I wonder why JKA felt the need NOT to speak with Free, is she above the law, or can a person just choose not to...

Anyways, it makes me believe she has something to hide...now what could that be?

I was just doing a little catch up reading this evening and saw your post, CJMAJORGIRL24, and wanted to say something about JKA. I read what she had written about the whole RG dissappearance again the other night. I enjoyed reading it and felt that she knew RG well. I think I will go with what she thinks about the situation. She does not claim to know what happened to him, but did work with him for 20 years. Maybe JKA did not have anything she could have added with the Freeh investigation, or maybe he did not formally request to speak with her. OR maybe she spoke with him off the record. RG was not the focus of the Freeh investigation. IDK, but I do not think she feels above the law. That is just my opinion. I don't think she has anything to hide, but rather may not have anything of revelance to add as it pertained to Sandusky. She may not have any information as to when anyone first found out about the molestations or rapes.

With RG still being missing (I know he has been declared dead), the FBI can choose to question her whenever they like in regard to his disappearance, and I feel she would be as forthcoming as she could. I guess I just do not get why anyone would think badly of JKA. I certainly don't. She was about as close as anyone could be to RG's everyday work habits and so forth.

I am pretty much convinced that RG took a payoff and/or a command from a certain higher up to leave Sandusky and Penn State alone. Do not pursue the investigation or charges, in other words.

Just MOO!

 

[LaLaw2000]

Yes, Hardymum, it is as if the 'powers that be' decided to get rid of anyone not thinking 'The Penn State Way.'

I'm glad Triponey somewhat recovered her career. She was treated like poop.

MOO

 

[LaLaw2000]

Perhaps JKA is in fear of being disappeared herself if she talks.

wm

That is a real possibility, but I still think JKA would be totally forthcoming with anyone with any subpoena power.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I was just doing a little catch up reading this evening and saw your post, CJMAJORGIRL24, and wanted to say something about JKA. I read what she had written about the whole RG dissappearance again the other night. I enjoyed reading it and felt that she knew RG well.
I think I will go with what she thinks about the situation. She does not claim to know what happened to him, but did work with him for 20 years.

I would disagree about how well JKA knew RFG. She worked for him, but they did not socialize; she knew very little of his private life. RFG was very close to Sloane, who had less seniority. I could make the same comment, about not being close, about Mark Smith, the first assistant. He worked at the office longer than she did and neither worked with RFG for 20 years, though Smith was close to it.

Maybe JKA did not have anything she could have added with the Freeh investigation, or maybe he did not formally request to speak with her. OR maybe she spoke with him off the record. RG was not the focus of the Freeh investigation. IDK, but I do not think she feels above the law.

Freeh indicated that she declined to speak, but they did talk to someone else about RFG's decision, that was not in the DA's Office. While I doubt that JKA was aware of RFG's rationale, she could have provided valuable, and relevant, information on what happened after the case left campus. She very clearly was the first person Schreffler spoke to about Victim 6 in the DA's Office.

As for being above the law, the Freeh investigation was a private investigation, and she was compelled to talk to the grand jury. See the first page of this thread.

With RG still being missing (I know he has been declared dead), the FBI can choose to question her whenever they like in regard to his disappearance, and I feel she would be as forthcoming as she could. I guess I just do not get why anyone would think badly of JKA. I certainly don't. She was about as close as anyone could be to RG's everyday work habits and so forth.

The FBI is not investigating the case. She very clearly was not as close to RFG professionally as others in the office. There were others that were much closer to him personally. She was out of the loop, by her own admission, after early to mid May 1998 on the Victim 6 case.

I am pretty much convinced that RG took a payoff and/or a command from a certain higher up to leave Sandusky and Penn State alone. Do not pursue the investigation or charges, in other words.

I'm not, though, bluntly, I was worried about what those e-mails would say. There is still zero evidence of any payoffs regarding this or any other case RFG handled. The e-mails don't indicate any pressure.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

That is a real possibility, but I still think JKA would be totally forthcoming with anyone with any subpoena power.

I think you should look at the first page of this thread. JKA indicated that her testimony before the grand jury was not a pleasant. The police report said that she had had "extensive disagreements" with RFG over the case; I think it is unlikely that she was suggesting more lenient treatment (because there wasn't any).http://www.centredaily.com/2012/02/08/3082313/amendola-seeks-evidence.html

JKA has said: "Would others, myself included had Ray not decided to handle the case personally, perhaps have decided to forge ahead with what was known at that time? While its impossible to say with 100% certainty without knowing what else transpired after Ray took over the case, that's quite possible."

http://www.centredaily.com/2012/07/08/3255159/legacy-protection.html#storylink=cpy

She had, to date, declined to reveal what she said during her grand jury testimony.

The indication that there were these "extensive disagreements" and that it was "quite possible" she would have prosecuted in 1998 are telling.

I would hope that the AG's Office would be interested in "what else transpired after Ray took over the case." I do not think it would necessarily be illegal or unethical.

 

[BigCat]

Makes me wonder if whatever she and Paterno were disagreeing about in late 2004 and early 2005 was something RFG would have also known about, as an off-campus issue....because that quote from Spanier really gave me the chills.

Penn State football players were getting into quite a bit of trouble in the early to mid 2000's. There was a 2008 episode of ESPN's "Outside the Lines" that detailed some of the cases.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=3504915

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Penn State football players were getting into quite a bit of trouble in the early to mid 2000's. There was a 2008 episode of ESPN's "Outside the Lines" that detailed some of the cases.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=3504915

The trouble seemed to increase after RFG disappeared, though some of that might be attributable to some questionable decisions of his successor.

 

[LaLaw2000]

I would disagree about how well JKA knew RFG. She worked for him, but they did not socialize; she knew very little of his private life. RFG was very close to Sloane, who had less seniority. I could make the same comment, about not being close, about Mark Smith, the first assistant. He worked at the office longer than she did and neither worked with RFG for 20 years, though Smith was close to it.



Freeh indicated that she declined to speak, but they did talk to someone else about RFG's decision, that was not in the DA's Office. While I doubt that JKA was aware of RFG's rationale, she could have provided valuable, and relevant, information on what happened after the case left campus. She very clearly was the first person Schreffler spoke to about Victim 6 in the DA's Office.

As for being above the law, the Freeh investigation was a private investigation, and she was compelled to talk to the grand jury. See the first page of this thread.




The FBI is not investigating the case. She very clearly was not as close to RFG professionally as others in the office. There were others that were much closer to him personally. She was out of the loop, by her own admission, after early to mid May 1998 on the Victim 6 case.



I'm not, though, bluntly, I was worried about what those e-mails would say. There is still zero evidence of any payoffs regarding this or any other case RFG handled. The e-mails don't indicate any pressure.

Thank you for your reply, but I still have my opinion and you have yours. I did not say the FBI was investigating this case. IF they were, I feel JKA would have fully cooperated. That is clearly my opinion. Why do you feel she would not?

You may pass my posts by if you wish. There is no need to be so condescending. I have read this case. I started reading about RG from the first day because it so intrigued me. I also get a different impression than you about others in the office being closer to RG. From what I know and have read from other message boards, the entire team worked well together as well as closely together.

I just still do not understand why the adversity toward JKA. Someone she worked with in her workplace just disappeared one day never to be heard from again. Of course it was traumatic for everyone in that office as well as for her. Why wouldn't she want to do anything and everything possible to cooperate?

JKA was an ADA and an officer of the court. By all accounts, she was at work all day the day RG went missing and was not implicated in his disappearance. At least she has one person standing up for her and that person is me.

MOO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Thank you for your reply, but I still have my opinion and you have yours. I did not say the FBI was investigating this case. IF they were, I feel JKA would have fully cooperated. That is clearly my opinion. Why do you feel she would not?

I think JKA would, and did, cooperate with the grand jury and the investigators. It is on the first page of this thread. I don't think she cooperated with the FBI, because the FBI was not involved in that aspect of the case.

You may pass my posts by if you wish. There is no need to be so condescending. I have read this case. I started reading about RG from the first day because it so intrigued me. I also get a different impression than you about others in the office being closer to RG. From what I know and have read from other message boards, the entire team worked well together as well as closely together.

Well, I'm not being condescending, or at least not trying to be. I am saying that this in what his coworkers (and yes, even JKA) have said. There was a routine FBI background check on RFG in 1986. They interviewed his former coworkers in Cleveland, along with several of the judges in Centre County. They said the same thing.

There were only two people in the office to which RFG was close. One was the woman he was living with, the other was Sloane. Now, that is not slap to any of his other co-workers, at all. It is a statement of fact, however, and it applied to people that were there longer than JKA.

I just still do not understand why the adversity toward JKA. Someone she worked with in her workplace just disappeared one day never to be heard from again. Of course it was traumatic for everyone in that office as well as for her. Why wouldn't she want to do anything and everything possible to cooperate?

The current "adversity" is due to her not talking to the Freeh investigators. While I think she should have, I have not joined in the bashing. From what I've been able to piece together, I think she was one of the people in 1998 who tried to do the right thing. I'm stuck with the belief that, with JKA on the case in 1998, we would not be seeing this scandal; it is not her fault that she wasn't on the case.

JKA was an ADA and an officer of the court. By all accounts, she was at work all day the day RG went missing and was not implicated in his disappearance.

Well, except for PEF, and the possibly Mark Smith, I have no idea where the staff (or the rest of the inner circle) was on 4/15/05, after about 5 PM. That said, I doubt if any of the staff was involved in foul play against RFG. It is something that I've been pushing for the police to investigate.

 

[rlc]

I have visited this discussion before, sometimes just reading, and rarely posting. I just now got caught up on all the threads, and have a few comments/questions.

In previous parts of the discussion, it was mentioned that RFG gave a significant amount of money to a center for abused women, and that he had a previous case involving a domestic violence victim who later ended up being killed by her abuser in a murder/suicide. I believe it was said that he expressed some regret about that case, though there was nothing he could have done differently, he wished he could have prevented her from returning to her abuser? Does anyone know if that case occurred before his donation to the women's shelter? It seems it could speak to the way he processed cases that have a negative outcome, and may give us a framework for considering how he would have felt if he learned about Sandusky's later abuse.

What was the reason for moving PEF from Victim Advocate to a clerical position? It does not sound like it would be a promotion, or a more interesting position. It does seem like he may have been sheltering her from something. From the emotional toll of hearing about abuses? From being in a position to gain information that could make her a target?

Her replacement was said to be an advocate who worked at the woman's shelter. I believe it was also mentioned that he searched for a replacement through word of mouth. Between that and the donation to the woman's shelter, I am curious if he had personal relationships with anyone there. I am also curious if the stories of women's shelters having their own version of the underground railroad to help battered women "disappear" is true. It seems the more credible of the RFG sightings involved women. If they do have a system in place to help battered women disappear, would they use it to help a male friend/donor who felt he was in harm's way disappear?

Did we ever find out who the important, well-regarded person was that Pamela West suspected of killing Betsy Aardsma?

Random question: was there anything significant occurring in November 1999? As a football fan, I remember the team going from undefeated to a hot mess, and always wondered if something was going on behind the scenes--someone sick, in-fighting, etc.

A few other thoughts:
I have a few divorce attorney friends in PA who use the term paramour to refer to someone who is intimately involved, has lots of emotional ties, but no legal ones. It does not seem to be intended to be insulting, but rather, someone who can muddy the waters from the emotion, but does not have a legal position.

The most likely explanation of RFG choosing not to press charges in 1998 would be, IMO, if he felt he could build a stronger case, or cast a wider net, by laying low and continuing a discreet investigation. I say discreet because I think he saw himself as an outsider, was a little turned off by the Penn State fanaticism, and would have been guarded as to who to trust, and who would become angry about it.

I think the whole hard drive thing was a facade. I think he is alive somewhere and has his hard drive with whatever information he wanted someone else to think he was destroying. I doubt he will ever resurface, because of the ramifications to his daughter. But it would not surprise me in the least to hear he has been sending anonymous information.

 

[jj-180]

This is tangentially related from April 4th 2006, not sure if it has been discussed yet:
http://www.collegian.psu.edu:8080/archive/2006/04/04-04-06tdc/04-04-06dnews-08.asp

U.S. Capitol Police asked local authorities last week for help locating an armed and mentally unstable man, who had previously made terroristic threats on a government building and claimed to be on campus "protecting a football player," law enforcement officials said.

Local police found the man with a fully loaded automatic handgun when they apprehended him Wednesday evening at the Holiday Inn Express, 1925 Waddle Road, said Patton Township police Chief John Petrick and Penn State University police Assistant Director Tyrone Parham.

The man -- whose name neither Petrick nor Parham could release because of medical privacy laws -- was taken to Mount Nittany Medical Center for evaluation.

U.S. Capitol Police also told local law enforcement that the Mifflinburg resident, who worked at a local government office, was under investigation for terroristic threats made against the U.S. Capitol, Parham said.

In addition, the individual was claiming to assist in the security of a Penn State football player, Petrick said.

Police said they did not know which player the man sought.

Penn State Athletic Department spokesman Guido D'Elia said police contacted the athletics officials several times, updating them on the man's whereabouts and mental state.

Parham said athletic department employees saw the "irrational, depressed and bizarre" man in and around the Lasch Football Building before the Capitol Police contacted local authorities.

In conversations with law enforcement and athletic department employees, D'Elia said Penn State officials were told of the man's bizarre actions and of his claims that he was "looking for Ray Gricar, among several other missions."

Ray Gricar is the former Centre County District Attorney who mysteriously disappeared April 15, 2005, and has been missing since.

Parham said by the time university police reached the athletic department office, the man had already left the campus.

Parham and Petrick said the man was apprehended in Patton Township peacefully and without incident.

The Capitol Police did not respond to repeated requests for more information by press time yesterday.

...wonder who this was. Who was he trying to protect? Why? Why would Guido D'Elia be contacted and involved. Probably just some crazy person, but in light of recent findings regarding the football program who knows.