I doubt that they were Mennonite, but the Church wouldve wanted to provide a place for locals to gather to pray. Some Mennonite groups are very conservative, almost like Amish, but this particular church is not the ultra conservative group.
GUILTY PA - Tom, 51, Lisa, 47, & Kevin Haines, 16, murdered, Manheim Twp, 12 May 2007
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The police have said that she is cooperating fully with the investigation. I imagine that would include a lie detector test. If I were her, I would insist on one.
Ok...so does anyone know for sure that the parents were stabbed before the mother told Maggie to go for help?
This just came up on another thread and I thought.....hmmmm. I had assumed that her mother and father had already been stabbed. But had they? Or were they stabbed after she left?
This just came up on another thread and I thought.....hmmmm. I had assumed that her mother and father had already been stabbed. But had they? Or were they stabbed after she left?
englishleigh
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If the mom wasn't hurt, then why didn't she try to leave the house with Maggie?
Even if she was, why didn't she try to get out and get help for herself and esp. for her son? I think the mom still being alive enough to sit at the edge of the bed and speak to Maggie, to tell her to go get help, yet not leave with her, is key in this.I dunno. I don't have enough information to explain ANY of this. Originally, I assumed that the mother was so seriously injured to not be able to speak above a whisper and that the father was already dead. But nobody said that.
Perhaps the parents wanted to stay and try to help the boy and wanted Maggie out of the house?
Perhaps the parents wanted to stay and try to help the boy and wanted Maggie out of the house?
They didn't say that wasn't the case either. They were asked that at the news conference, and they said they didn't know either way, yet. I believe that really was how it went down. Or else, the scuffling that the daughter heard, was her brother struggling to make his way into the hallway.. where he died. The killer couldve then stabbed the father, and heard some noise, and only stabbed the mother one time before rushing out of the house.
An artery couldve been cut through, and she may have been bleeding to death, too weak to do more than sit, in shock.If the mom wasn't hurt, then why didn't she try to leave the house with Maggie?
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It stands to reason that an instinctive reaction to being attacked with a knife would vary from person to person.
Maybe the mom's first reaction was to recoil or be frozen in terror. This could have allowed the attacker sufficient opportunity to deliver a lethal wound with the first blow. If the father and the brother reacted by fighting back, many more strikes would have been needed to be sure that they would not survive their wounds.
I think that most people,(male or female) would fight back. In real life I know I would fight, but in nightmares I sometimes find myself paralyzed in fear; unable to scream. I wake up making some pitiful moaning sound.
Maybe the mom was speaking so quietly because that was all she could manage to do, like I do
in my nightmares.
Susan
Maybe the mom's first reaction was to recoil or be frozen in terror. This could have allowed the attacker sufficient opportunity to deliver a lethal wound with the first blow. If the father and the brother reacted by fighting back, many more strikes would have been needed to be sure that they would not survive their wounds.
I think that most people,(male or female) would fight back. In real life I know I would fight, but in nightmares I sometimes find myself paralyzed in fear; unable to scream. I wake up making some pitiful moaning sound.
Maybe the mom was speaking so quietly because that was all she could manage to do, like I do
in my nightmares.Susan
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Here's another thought--(Please imagine you favorite disclaimer is inserted right here!)
What if one of the son's friends was in some sort of trouble...say, drugs, deviant sex, or was being abused. Being a good kid, the son goes to his father for advice on how to help his friend. The friend finds out and is furious, or afraid his secret will be publicly revealed. He freaks out...bludgeons the son, dad wakes up--friend fights and kills dad, by the time he gets to mom he's exhausted, delivers one lethal stab wound and retraces his steps thru the son's room to make his escape just as sister wakes up, hears him exiting thru her brother's room and finds mom barely able to speak!
The above paragraph is a product of my imagination so don't anyone get all worked up, okay?
Susan
What if one of the son's friends was in some sort of trouble...say, drugs, deviant sex, or was being abused. Being a good kid, the son goes to his father for advice on how to help his friend. The friend finds out and is furious, or afraid his secret will be publicly revealed. He freaks out...bludgeons the son, dad wakes up--friend fights and kills dad, by the time he gets to mom he's exhausted, delivers one lethal stab wound and retraces his steps thru the son's room to make his escape just as sister wakes up, hears him exiting thru her brother's room and finds mom barely able to speak!
The above paragraph is a product of my imagination so don't anyone get all worked up, okay?
Susan
raisincharlie
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Anyone watch Greta - short segment in an interview with the coroner. Wounds to the father and son would have resulted in rapid death, not so in the case of the Mom but they are not releasing what all was done to the Mom. The murder weapon was not found in the home but the same knife was used on all three. Autopsies complete - no rigor was noted in any of the bodies. Call came in at 0240am. Will wait to see the transcript on this from Greta. also says the daughter is cooperating. The presence of a profiler seems to indicate there are few leads - per Greta.
Annie
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I would think with so many stab wounds, at least one of them would have done some screaming to warn the others if nothing else. My mind just keeps going back to the daughter/sister. I think it may be someone that she knows who did not like her family. It has happened before in several cases. It may not be true in this one, but that is what I keep thinking.
I missed Greta. In the most recent interview that I saw, The MT Police Sgt. said that they will keep searching until their is "nothing". Not, "we will keep searching until we solve this". So it did suggest that their few leads are not very strong. They seem to be waiting for a break, maybe from the public. Injuries to the killers arms or hands would be break.
I think its feasible that this happened also the timing of this plays a big part as well. its likely that all of the victims were in REM sleep at this point in which case it is very hard to be awakened suddenly and to a very alert state. It may be that she was stabbed while sleeping and the father was awakened and started fighting for his life at that point. Or as others have suggested the father was killed first and after the first stab wound on the mother the perp heard the son awaken and went to his room.. interupting the attack on the mother.It stands to reason that an instinctive reaction to being attacked with a knife would vary from person to person.
Maybe the mom's first reaction was to recoil or be frozen in terror. This could have allowed the attacker sufficient opportunity to deliver a lethal wound with the first blow. If the father and the brother reacted by fighting back, many more strikes would have been needed to be sure that they would not survive their wounds.
I think that most people,(male or female) would fight back. In real life I know I would fight, but in nightmares I sometimes find myself paralyzed in fear; unable to scream. I wake up making some pitiful moaning sound.
Maybe the mom was speaking so quietly because that was all she could manage to do, like I do
Susan
Reannan
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I believe the following scenario is possible:
The intruder enters the house via the backdoor. The door was either left open, or the intruder had access to a key. He perhaps knew where a spare key was kept, had a key from the remodelling that was underway, had recently stolen the key from one of the family members, or had access to the key via a maid service that the family perhaps used.
He then went to the parents bedroom. He could have been familiar with the layout of the home, or he could have had time to wander through the house as the family slept. In either case, it would make sense to take out the largest threat first, i.e the parents.
I believe the murder weapon was something like a machete, primarily because of what we know about the mother's reactions. If the killer stood over the sleeping parents and violently hacked away at the father, there would not have necessarily been time for the father to scream out. The mother would have heard/sensed the attack and would have woke up, at which time, the killer hacked her once, in the stomach. A single deep would to the stomach area with a machete, would leave one pretty much breathless, and unable to scream; but perhaps capable of sitting up in shock on the edge of the bed.
The killer then runs to Kevin's room and either intentionally wakes Kevin, or encounters Kevin in the process of waking up. Kevin obviously had time to begin struggling with the assailant per Maggie's description of what she heard.
Maggie hears the noises, and goes to her mother's room, where she is told to "go get help". Maggie runs; as would I! I believe Maggie was probably only a few steps ahead of the killer as she ran from the house.
The killer hears Maggie and stops the attack on Kevin. He runs from the house, out the back door and into the night. Kevin manages to stumble into the hallway before collapsing.
The killer is probably very young, but there is also the possibility that it was an older person who was there for Maggie. He had intended to save her for last. This doesn't really fit with the apparent violent, and then what seems to be panicked nature of the assault. The single slash to the mother, the fact that Kevin survived to stumble out into the hallway, the open back door, all indicate to me that the killer lost control of the situation when the mother woke up as he was killiing the father. I know one thing for sure, the killer has some very bloody clothing to dispose of. If he lives with someone, they will have to notice if the tries to clean the clothing. My bet would be that he disposes of it rather than cleaning it. The shoes would probably be beyond salvage. I would assume that the police would be looking for disposed clothing/shoes.
I hope Maggie has a strong support network. This crime is the stuff that is only supposed to happen in the movies.
The intruder enters the house via the backdoor. The door was either left open, or the intruder had access to a key. He perhaps knew where a spare key was kept, had a key from the remodelling that was underway, had recently stolen the key from one of the family members, or had access to the key via a maid service that the family perhaps used.
He then went to the parents bedroom. He could have been familiar with the layout of the home, or he could have had time to wander through the house as the family slept. In either case, it would make sense to take out the largest threat first, i.e the parents.
I believe the murder weapon was something like a machete, primarily because of what we know about the mother's reactions. If the killer stood over the sleeping parents and violently hacked away at the father, there would not have necessarily been time for the father to scream out. The mother would have heard/sensed the attack and would have woke up, at which time, the killer hacked her once, in the stomach. A single deep would to the stomach area with a machete, would leave one pretty much breathless, and unable to scream; but perhaps capable of sitting up in shock on the edge of the bed.
The killer then runs to Kevin's room and either intentionally wakes Kevin, or encounters Kevin in the process of waking up. Kevin obviously had time to begin struggling with the assailant per Maggie's description of what she heard.
Maggie hears the noises, and goes to her mother's room, where she is told to "go get help". Maggie runs; as would I! I believe Maggie was probably only a few steps ahead of the killer as she ran from the house.
The killer hears Maggie and stops the attack on Kevin. He runs from the house, out the back door and into the night. Kevin manages to stumble into the hallway before collapsing.
The killer is probably very young, but there is also the possibility that it was an older person who was there for Maggie. He had intended to save her for last. This doesn't really fit with the apparent violent, and then what seems to be panicked nature of the assault. The single slash to the mother, the fact that Kevin survived to stumble out into the hallway, the open back door, all indicate to me that the killer lost control of the situation when the mother woke up as he was killiing the father. I know one thing for sure, the killer has some very bloody clothing to dispose of. If he lives with someone, they will have to notice if the tries to clean the clothing. My bet would be that he disposes of it rather than cleaning it. The shoes would probably be beyond salvage. I would assume that the police would be looking for disposed clothing/shoes.
I hope Maggie has a strong support network. This crime is the stuff that is only supposed to happen in the movies.
Reannan, I totally agree with your take. As a college student who just came home myself, I've been thinking about the case a lot and my theory on what happened is pretty much exactly like yours...
There was a buildup to this event in the mind of the killer; no one massacres almost an entire family completely at random. The killer either knew the family or had randomly targeted their house and had been watching it for at least a little while. I think this b/c nobody walks around trying random doors and then walks in and stabs three people to death, even if they are crazy. Maybe if the family had been shot I'd think it was a random botched robbery, but a vicious knife attack? And the fact that nothing was missing from the home? It just doesn't seem right.
Anyway, so the killer built this up in his mind. I doubt he planned all the little details (judging from the messy crime scene and the fact that Maggie lived), but I think he thought about committing the overall act a lot. So he goes into the house late at night, which was presumably unlocked (or did he have a key/know where one was kidden?). He goes into the parents' room and stabs the father first, multiple times, neutralizing the biggest threat. Then he goes for the mother; perhaps he only stabbed her once b/c it became apparent that Kevin was awake and the killer figured the mother was incapacitated enough to allow him to go take care of Kevin.
So the killer goes into Kevin's room and ends up having more problems with Kevin than he bargained for; they're scuffling, and the noise wakes Maggie up. She goes to investigate and stops in her parents' room on the way...the father is presumably dead (or close to it) by then, and the mother is seriously wounded. The mother tells Maggie to go get help b/c the killer is still in the house (maybe within earshot) and she doesn't want Maggie to run into the room trying to help her parents and end up getting stabbed herself. If the killer was no longer in the house, I doubt Maggie would've left or that the mother would've told her to...why send your daughter outside where the killer may still be lurking?
So Maggie runs across the street and calls 911. She didn't stay and use the house phone b/c the killer was still there! Perhaps the killer realized she had escaped and fled, b/c by the time the cops got there the killer was gone (evidently having left through the back door). The only reason Maggie survived is b/c the killer simply didn't have time to get to her. He knew she was home; anyone who knew the family or had been watching the house would've known that. Maggie lived b/c the killer didn't bargain on Kevin putting up such a struggle or on the mom being able to communicate anything to her daughter...and he just didn't have time to get to her before she escaped.
My biggest question right now is: why do the cops seem to think that the perpetrator is still in the community? He could be anywhere by now...what clues/evidence do they have to make them think otherwise?
I'm praying every night for Maggie and her family. I hope she has a great support system to get her through this.
There was a buildup to this event in the mind of the killer; no one massacres almost an entire family completely at random. The killer either knew the family or had randomly targeted their house and had been watching it for at least a little while. I think this b/c nobody walks around trying random doors and then walks in and stabs three people to death, even if they are crazy. Maybe if the family had been shot I'd think it was a random botched robbery, but a vicious knife attack? And the fact that nothing was missing from the home? It just doesn't seem right.
Anyway, so the killer built this up in his mind. I doubt he planned all the little details (judging from the messy crime scene and the fact that Maggie lived), but I think he thought about committing the overall act a lot. So he goes into the house late at night, which was presumably unlocked (or did he have a key/know where one was kidden?). He goes into the parents' room and stabs the father first, multiple times, neutralizing the biggest threat. Then he goes for the mother; perhaps he only stabbed her once b/c it became apparent that Kevin was awake and the killer figured the mother was incapacitated enough to allow him to go take care of Kevin.
So the killer goes into Kevin's room and ends up having more problems with Kevin than he bargained for; they're scuffling, and the noise wakes Maggie up. She goes to investigate and stops in her parents' room on the way...the father is presumably dead (or close to it) by then, and the mother is seriously wounded. The mother tells Maggie to go get help b/c the killer is still in the house (maybe within earshot) and she doesn't want Maggie to run into the room trying to help her parents and end up getting stabbed herself. If the killer was no longer in the house, I doubt Maggie would've left or that the mother would've told her to...why send your daughter outside where the killer may still be lurking?
So Maggie runs across the street and calls 911. She didn't stay and use the house phone b/c the killer was still there! Perhaps the killer realized she had escaped and fled, b/c by the time the cops got there the killer was gone (evidently having left through the back door). The only reason Maggie survived is b/c the killer simply didn't have time to get to her. He knew she was home; anyone who knew the family or had been watching the house would've known that. Maggie lived b/c the killer didn't bargain on Kevin putting up such a struggle or on the mom being able to communicate anything to her daughter...and he just didn't have time to get to her before she escaped.
My biggest question right now is: why do the cops seem to think that the perpetrator is still in the community? He could be anywhere by now...what clues/evidence do they have to make them think otherwise?
I'm praying every night for Maggie and her family. I hope she has a great support system to get her through this.
misterallgood
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I think the killer didn't know Maggie was home. The killer's target may very well have been Kevin. Someone in Kevin's orbit, who seems or seemed harmless.
I'd bet cops are closely examining some of Kevin's friendships, the people in his circle of friends, associates.
The killer either didn't know the family and targeted them for delusional reasons, or the killer knew the Haineses well, esp. Tom, Lisa, and Kevin. He had the least animosity towards Lisa, which is why the attack on her was deadly, but from reports, less brutal than it was on Kevin and Thomas Haines. Whoever killed this family may have the most complex relationships with males.
They may be scrutinizing young men around Kevin who were close to him but have not reacted in what most would think of as a 'normal' way.
I could be wrong about all of this, but I think the truth, if it does come out, will be strange. I'm often the one telling others that crime is simpler than we want it to be. That sometimes the reasons for murder are banal, and rational folks will never be able to make sense of them.
This is one instance where I do not think the factors that led to this triple murder will be simple. They will be odd, and surprising.
Another note -- anyone read other message boards about this, like the boards attached to some of the PA newspapers and TV stations? The discussion in this thread has been incredibly sane and civil by comparison. There are people saying some really ugly things at those more locally-oriented boards.
Steve/Mr. A
I'd bet cops are closely examining some of Kevin's friendships, the people in his circle of friends, associates.
The killer either didn't know the family and targeted them for delusional reasons, or the killer knew the Haineses well, esp. Tom, Lisa, and Kevin. He had the least animosity towards Lisa, which is why the attack on her was deadly, but from reports, less brutal than it was on Kevin and Thomas Haines. Whoever killed this family may have the most complex relationships with males.
They may be scrutinizing young men around Kevin who were close to him but have not reacted in what most would think of as a 'normal' way.
I could be wrong about all of this, but I think the truth, if it does come out, will be strange. I'm often the one telling others that crime is simpler than we want it to be. That sometimes the reasons for murder are banal, and rational folks will never be able to make sense of them.
This is one instance where I do not think the factors that led to this triple murder will be simple. They will be odd, and surprising.
Another note -- anyone read other message boards about this, like the boards attached to some of the PA newspapers and TV stations? The discussion in this thread has been incredibly sane and civil by comparison. There are people saying some really ugly things at those more locally-oriented boards.
Steve/Mr. A
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I am stuck on something. The reports about the Haines'-their interests, personalities etc. describe Mrs. Haines as an animal lover. Most animal people keep pets-did the family own a dog? If so, why did he not react to a stranger in the home? Maybe the intruder was not a stranger. Also were their cats or a cat? A cat could have walked through blood and even out of the opened door, carrying forensic evidence on his paws. I am very interested in knowing if there were pets in the home.
misterallgood
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I don't know if they had pets or not, but the part I put in bold in your comment above -- yes. Just read an article at LancasterOnline.com interviewing residents of that neighborhood wherein someone stated that the neighborhood consensus seemed to be that the murders were not committed by a stranger.
I'm just about certain they were committed by someone who knew the family and the layout of the home well.
Steve/Mr. A
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