GUILTY PA - Tom, 51, Lisa, 47, & Kevin Haines, 16, murdered, Manheim Twp, 12 May 2007

[misterallgood]

Steve - It's much easier to make more accurate "guesses" as to what may have happened when you have additional information, as you appear to have. Regular folks, myself included, only have access to what is in the media.

That being said, I welcome your insight. It sounds like it may very well turn out to be someone who knew Kevin. Can you say if it may be someone who is in his Scout troop?

I believe that I read that you wouldn't be surprised if an older man were a catalyst (not your exact terms) . If so, do you think the older person could be a Scout leader? Do you think that a Scout leader feared being exposed for something and this younger kid did his bidding?

Just wondering...My mind wanders off on these tangents, which are usually farfetched and inaccurate.

The part in bold above -- you're absolutely right.

My extra info was gained both through tips and research that anyone else can do, if they know where to look -- still I do have to remember that it colors my reaction to things -- sorry if I ever seem sharp or argumentative.

I do also feel though that what I know could always end up not being relevant. I've learned some weird stuff related to this case, but nothing that just points the finger at a person and says they are a killer. It only raised my suspicions.

So my seeming "advantage" knowledge-wise may end up being a disadvantage. The only people who could confirm or deny my suspicions are the cops, and they sure won't talk.

I'm serious, too, when I say there's enough doubt in my mind to hold out the possibility that the killings were random. Realistically, this is one case where I don't think that happened, but I didn't think that happened to the Groenes, either, and I was wrong there.

Steve

 

[PSUfan]

http://www.wgal.com/video/13360332/index.html?source=

On www.wgal.com Police discuss questioning of students. It says that they are contacted by students if any kids have scratches on their arms.

 

[christine2448]

Really interesting reading everyone's theories, ideas, etc.

Steve, thanks for all the info and insight. I always enjoy reading your posts.

I was first leaning towards Maggie, but Mr. Nanandjim changed my mind about that.....if she were behind it, it would make no sense at all to have them killed with her in the house, she would have had it down while still at school, JMO.

I am now, after reading everyone's info, and knowing Steve and his investigations, am leaning toward a friend of Kevin.

The only theory I haven't seen mentioned, murder suicide...with anyone one of the 3 being the murderer? Just curious why no one has brought this up, and if so, sorry I missed it.

 

[raisincharlie]

http://www.wgal.com/video/13360332/index.html?source=

On www.wgal.com Police discuss questioning of students. It says that they are contacted by students if any kids have scratches on their arms.

PSUfan,

Thanks for all the links to the video's. The one video of the chopper and the dogs - was that video related to this case ? Assuming it was, it seems obvious that the perpertrator left the house and went in this direction - do you know if LE is still searching that area perhaps looking for a murder weapon(s) in the water or have you not heard ? TIA

 

[opme]

I am thinking that this was a crime where Kevin was the intended target. The perpetrator went the extra step of inflicting more damage to Kevin than the other members of the family... kevins throat was cut was that a way of preventing Kevin from talking about someone...of someones secret possibly sexual orientation or maybe other crimes. Could Kevin have known specific knowledge about other crimes or of behaviors exhibited in psychopaths/sociopaths? Coud Kevin have shared this with his Dad..thus the anger with the males in the family..or possibly something Kevin and his Dad joked about with others such as at scouting? maybe as Steve has said there is a catalyst in the form of another adult male a scout leader.. perhaps involved with another scout or another parent who was abusing the son thus extreme embarassment and the desperation to protect that knowledge from being shared.. maybe Kevin saw something at scouting or at friends house. Some knowledge that caused a desperate attempt at keeping it quiet, far from public knowledge/consumption and the misplaced agression visable by the multiple stabbings of kevin and his father.. and the mother only being a bystander/witness and recieving little of the agression and a single stab wound... and possibly the shock of which she could identify the murder as a friend of kevins

 

[misterallgood]

I've already alluded to some of this in posts here, but you all may want to see this:

http://crimeblog.us/?p=434

Steve/Mr. A.

 

[PSUfan]

PSUfan,

Thanks for all the links to the video's. The one video of the chopper and the dogs - was that video related to this case ? Assuming it was, it seems obvious that the perpertrator left the house and went in this direction - do you know if LE is still searching that area perhaps looking for a murder weapon(s) in the water or have you not heard ? TIA

I am not sure which video you are referring to. I am looking at the website now and cannot find a vid with a chopper and dogs. Do you remember what the title of the vid was? Thanks

 

[PSUfan]

I've already alluded to some of this in posts here, but you all may want to see this:

http://crimeblog.us/?p=434

Steve/Mr. A.

Thanks Steve! Very interesting latest post. I sure do hope investigators will close in on the killer soon.

 

[Indigator]

As my earlier posts indicate, I have been leaning toward someone who knows the family and has some emotional attachment to at least one of them. These emotions may never have been expressed, but nonetheless have been working on the killer in a profound way. I would love to know if there was a family dog since a non-reaction from him would indicate that it was not a stranger who entered the house or at the very least, someone the dog felt was not a threat-a young person perhaps. I also wonder if there were any ritualistic elements about the crime scene to indicate a serial killer type, who could likely be a stranger. I don't think it was Maggie and for some reason, in this case, I never felt suspect of her. Kevin was planning a trip to Germany this summer-could that event have triggered someone to feel "protective" of him, concerned that Kevin would do or say something that would reveal something else when he was no longer in Manheim?

Steve's post about the older guy raises bright red flags to me. As a parent of children who are Kevin's age, I can assure you that they are irritating to hang out with for any length of time. A normal adult has nothing in common with teenage kids and would not hang out with them for great lengths of time, unless of course they are your own children. I would be suspicious of any childless adult willing to do the same.

I apologize if I offend anyone with this next statement. The Boy Scouts, in the past, has attracted some weird characters. My passion for crime solving was born after my classmate was found stabbed to death during a Boy Scout camping trip (1970 in Phoenixville, PA-not very far from Manheim). That crime was never solved. I did not allow my own kids to be involved in scouting, even as my husband protested as he scouted through his teens. I don't mean to say that the murderer in this case was involved in scouting, just that it would be an area in Kevin's life that should be thoroughly investigated.

There are a lot of interesting ideas here and some very sharp minds. Steve, thanks for the great posts.

 

[raisincharlie]

I am not sure which video you are referring to. I am looking at the website now and cannot find a vid with a chopper and dogs. Do you remember what the title of the vid was? Thanks

Hope this link works:http://www.wgal.com/video/13277406/detail.html

There is no commentary but it shows the dogs down by a water area - river perhaps with a smalll dam. As I said there is no commentary but it was linked to one of the stories about this case.

 

[calidreamin]

I am leaning toward a friend of Kevin's being involved. That was a great post Steve and the older man is really setting off my hinky meter. I would never allow my sons to hang out with a grown man 20 years older than they are.

 

[luthersmama]

I am not sure which video you are referring to. I am looking at the website now and cannot find a vid with a chopper and dogs. Do you remember what the title of the vid was? Thanks

I don't think that video relates to this case. There was a boating accident on the Susquehanna River in which a young woman died. Her body was found below a dam. They had stopped above the dam for a picnic but the boat started drifting. They couldn't restart the engine and the boat went over. The other kids were ok but her body was found several days later.

 

[Indigator]

Calidreamin-I know what you are saying about letting your kids hang out with an older person. Sometimes, though things are not really clear to parents. In our town, there is a comic book store that also hosts those role playing games, war games etc. I don't really understand them because my kids aren't into it, but the place is packed for these events. It always is all male, mainly teens but there are quite a few older guys, as well as the owner. Maybe this fellow in Manheim owns that sort of store and it would not be such a stretch to understand why kids are hanging out there, and with him, all the time. Whether he is just an "innocent bystander" remains to be seen. Either way, for an adult with bad intentions, playing these games would be an ideal way to needle himself into the lives of young, male teenagers

 

[fran]

I've already alluded to some of this in posts here, but you all may want to see this:

http://crimeblog.us/?p=434

Steve/Mr. A.

Thanks for the link Steve. I know what you said about how you thought the Groene murders were someone they knew and you were wrong,..........IMHO,...from what we know so far, I don't think this is random.
Looks like Kevin was probably the TARGET and the parents were collateral damage. I think whoever did it just didn't know the sister was home.

JMHO
fran

 

[TGIRecovered]

I've already alluded to some of this in posts here, but you all may want to see this:

http://crimeblog.us/?p=434

Steve/Mr. A.

If anyone hasn't read Steve's latest update yet, I highly recommend it!
I agree that any 30 yr old hanging out so much with teenagers must have some ulterior motive, and I doubt this guy is using bloody video games to witness for Jesus!

Susan

 

[misterallgood]

Calidreamin-I know what you are saying about letting your kids hang out with an older person. Sometimes, though things are not really clear to parents. In our town, there is a comic book store that also hosts those role playing games, war games etc. I don't really understand them because my kids aren't into it, but the place is packed for these events. It always is all male, mainly teens but there are quite a few older guys, as well as the owner. Maybe this fellow in Manheim owns that sort of store and it would not be such a stretch to understand why kids are hanging out there, and with him, all the time. Whether he is just an "innocent bystander" remains to be seen. Either way, for an adult with bad intentions, playing these games would be an ideal way to needle himself into the lives of young, male teenagers

This older guy I wrote about (older than the teens, but he's younger than me, just so my usage of the word is clear) -- he runs a business that does what looks to be a kind of research & development. He's been active in Big Brothers & Big Sisters.

Something's not right there, is all I can say for now.

I tried to be even-handed in the blog entry, but I wouldn't trust any guy that age around my teen son for a minute, especially if he was unattached and his interest was not directly related to some pursuit like sports, Scouts, or perhaps the performing arts. And even then, I'd be vigilant.

Then again, I write about crime, so paranoia comes with the territory.

Steve/Mr. A.

 

[calidreamin]

I know what you mean Indicator and Steve, This older guy gives me the creeps. I have three boys and there is now way a grown man in his 30's would be hanging out with them. I have no idea if he had anything to do with the murders or not but any guy that age hanging with teenagers is up to no good.

 

[nanandjim]

Here are photos of the victims.

 

[calidreamin]

Thanks for posting the pictures Nan. They look like such a nice family, this is such a shame. I feel so bad for their poor daughter that is left behind.

 

[nanandjim]

This older guy I wrote about (older than the teens, but he's younger than me, just so my usage of the word is clear) -- he runs a business that does what looks to be a kind of research & development. He's been active in Big Brothers & Big Sisters.

Something's not right there, is all I can say for now.

I tried to be even-handed in the blog entry, but I wouldn't trust any guy that age around my teen son for a minute, especially if he was unattached and his interest was not directly related to some pursuit like sports, Scouts, or perhaps the performing arts. And even then, I'd be vigilant.

Then again, I write about crime, so paranoia comes with the territory.

Steve/Mr. A.

Sad to say that pedophiles and predators know how to get close to children. They think like kids and know what kids like. My husband told me of an incident that happened to him when he was 11 or 12 years old. I believe that he said that it involved a YMCA director who would take the boys on camp outs and have them over for sleepovers. The guy rubbed his leg and he pushed him away. Then, I believe that he started to rub the other boy's leg. Both boys told their parents. The Director was made to leave the organization. He wasn't prosecuted, though. Back then, they were not as vigilant about sexual predators.

Big Brothers would be a good way to get close to boys who are desperate for male attention. Also, the Scouts would be a good way.

I can remember seeing a documentary on CTV years ago about this young man who was in prison for murdering his family. I believe that he was an Eagle Scout and his Scout leader had been sexually abusing him for years. I don't remember how it came about, but I think that someone found out or something happened where the Scout leader kind of pushed him into murdering his own family.

He was angry at his family for not recognizing what was going on. Of course, he couldn't tell them. I felt so bad for his family as they tried everything to get the boy under control. I believe this Scout leader acted like he cared and became a really close family friend. Now, the kid (now grown) is spending the rest of his life in prison. I don't know what happened to the pedophile or even if he was prosecuted.

So, perhaps, the older person thought that he was going to be exposed. Of course, he would be the one with the most to lose. I wonder if Kevin saw something and then stayed away from him or the group. Perhaps, the guy grew more and more paranoid that Kevin would expose him and talked this young kid into killing the family. The kid may not have even known that Kevin had a sister.