Paint tote

[Ames]

If FFDI kidnap for slave, then...

...they killed JBR in a way that she couldn't be revived. If revived, she could then describe them, and even identify them if she ever saw them again. That answers your question why not just turn around, and why they garroted AND headbashed. If only garroted, then she could be revived.

...changing her underwear, wrapping in a blanket, etc. means they almost left with her. Either they didn't find out about her green eyes and roots until late, or they were indecisive and stalled, or something else went wrong.

First of all WHY would they care if her underwear was stained with urine, blood or both? How did they know WHERE to find the new/clean underwear? Why would THEY care if the new/clean underwear said WEDNESDAY (Christmas was on a Wednesday, and she had worn the size 6 Wednesday panties that day...but, WHY would an intruder/kidnapper/killer give a hoot about that??), why not just grab a pair of panties from her drawer...why did they HAVE to say Wednesday..and be the look alike to the ones that she had on earlier that day? I just don't get why an intruder/kidnapper would care about something like that. The panties were supposedly wrapped to give as a gift to Patsy's niece...how did the intruder know what was in that package? Did he use his crystal ball? If he had came all that way to kidnap a child, why would he bother opening a tiny Christmas gift, that just happened to contain size 12 panties, of the same style that JB had worn that day? He didn't break into the Ramsey's home to steal things...he broke in to steal a person. So, he would have had no reason to go through and open Christmas presents....make that ONE Christmas present...the one that just so happened to contain the size 12 panties. On the other hand, IF those panties had of been kept JB's panty drawer (and they WERE unopened...as Patsy herself stated)...then WHY would an intruder OPEN a new pack of panties...why not just grab a pair that was already there?? Which leads me to the original question...why would an intruder/kidnapper change her underwear ANYWAY ??? Again, ....this makes absolutely NO SENSE at all. The ONLY reason that I could see someone wanting to put the SAME style of panties on JB...as the ones that she had worn earlier that day...is because, JB had a habit of asking anybody around her..to wipe her when she went potty. IF someone at the White's party had of wiped her, then they would have seen the Wednesday panties. The Ramsey say that JB was "zonked out"...when she arrived home, and didn't wake up. But, how could this BE..if for some reason, she got up in the middle of the night to change her panties (and the only reason for that would be, if she had of wet herself and Patsy would have known about that, because she would have had to change the sheets)...then that would contradict the Ramsey's story. They put her to bed, she was asleep, and she didn't get up..until the intruder kidnapped her and took her to the basement. The ONLY reason that makes sense that she would have a size 12 pair of identical panties that she had worn earlier that day...is if the PARENTS put them on her. THEY knew where the panties were kept. Whether it be the drawers, or wrapped up for a gift. They are the only people that would have a REASON to change her into the SAME day of the week panties, but, just a different size. It wouldn't have mattered if those panties were a size 40...(granny panties)...what DID matter, is that they said WEDNESDAY...Just in case someone at the Whites party had wiped her, and had of seen them.

 

[DeeDee249]

If they were "foreign" intruders who changed their minds, they didn't have to kill her. She could never have identified them anyway. Describe, maybe. But you can't say who someone IS if you don't know who they are. If they took her by car and changed their mind, they could have dropped her off anywhere, and she'd STILL never be able to positively ID them. I mean, what could she say besides "they were 'foreign'?"

This killing always has been an unintentional result of parental involvement. Kidnappers kidnap. That's why they are called "kidnappers". That means removing the victim from a situation where the victim belongs. NOT taking them to the basement of their own home. IF they had changed their minds, they could have simply left her in the basement. Alone and scared, and screaming for her parents, but alive. They had no need to kill her; she couldn't possibly ID them.

 

[Ames]

If they were "foreign" intruders who changed their minds, they didn't have to kill her. She could never have identified them anyway. Describe, maybe. But you can't say who someone IS if you don't know who they are. If they took her by car and changed their mind, they could have dropped her off anywhere, and she'd STILL never be able to positively ID them. I mean, what could she say besides "they were 'foreign'?"

This killing always has been an unintentional result of parental involvement. Kidnappers kidnap. That's why they are called "kidnappers". That means removing the victim from a situation where the victim belongs. NOT taking them to the basement of their own home. IF they had changed their minds, they could have simply left her in the basement. Alone and scared, and screaming for her parents, but alive. They had no need to kill her; she couldn't possibly ID them.

That's right...and we are talking about a 6 year old girl. She may not even have known that they were "foreign"...much less be able to describe them. "Well...they had dark skin and they talked funny". That just about narrows it down..

I agree...that's what I said in one of my post. WHY kill her? Holdon said that the intruders may have "heard a noise", and panicked. Well, now...THAT makes "sense". If I were an intruder/kidnapper and I had kidnapped a child, and taken her to the basement of her own home.. (WHO does that anyway?)...and I heard a noise and panicked. I would RUN as fast as I could, to get the heck away from that house, not crack her skull, fashion a garotte, place it around her neck, twist it, and change her underwear. That doesn't sound like someone that panicked to me. It sounds like someone that was extremely comfortable moving around inside that house...someone that...actually lived there.

 

[DeeDee249]

Not to mention spend time finding, fixing, and feeding her a pineapple snack.

 

[Ames]

Not to mention spend time finding, fixing, and feeding her a pineapple snack.

Right...how could I have forgotten that darn pineapple...the "big bugaboo"?

Imagine the intruder's dismay when they found out that they had found, fixed and fed pineapple to a green eyed girl with dark roots!!! (GASP!!)

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

This STILL makes NO sense. Why not just take her out the door, into the awaiting get away car, and kill her some place else? Maybe dump the body?? I reallly don't think that a real kidnapper/killer would have risked leaving fiber evidence or any other evidence behind, just because she had dark roots and green eyes. Sounds like too big of a risk to take ....for nothing. It just doesn't make sense for them to take the time to kill her there...and risk leaving evidence behind, when it would have been so much cleaner, faster and easier, to put her in the getaway car and take her some place BESIDES her OWN HOME. Did they not notice her dark roots and green eyes when they took her from her bed? They were in the basement with her, according to you, for two hours....did it take them THAT long to notice? Were they BLIND? I am still trying to figure out why an intruder would take a kidnapped child to the basement of her OWN HOME, when the front door was so much closer. That, in and of itself...doesn't make sense.

You're hung up on this 'go out the front door right away' idea, without thinking about what is really going on.

The intruders would be moving JBR from her bedroom downstairs against JBR's will, right? Without waking anyone else, right? So they would need a way to instantly quiet JBR without killing her, right? Cord fibers found in JBR's bed means she was garrotted right there, and moved downstairs while garroted, right? Now how do you suppose a garroted kid in pajamas is ready to be carried against her will out the front door to a car thats possibly on the next block?

Now comes the basement part, where she is apparently ungarroted, blanketed, taped, and fed pineapple.

This need you perceive escapes me. A kidnapper who has been in the basement since mid-afternoon or early evening to no longer use the basement because they want to take JBR screaming in her pajamas to their car?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Right...how could I have forgotten that darn pineapple...the "big bugaboo"?

Imagine the intruder's dismay when they found out that they had found, fixed and fed pineapple to a green eyed girl with dark roots!!! (GASP!!)

Yeah, what they really wanted was a blonde-haired blue-eyed American girl for their very own.

 

[JMO8778]

Yeah, what they really wanted was a blonde-haired blue-eyed American girl for their very own.

...next please ! then WHO was their next target??? funny they never struck again...

 

[IrishMist]

You're hung up on this 'go out the front door right away' idea, without thinking about what is really going on.

The intruders would be moving JBR from her bedroom downstairs against JBR's will, right? Without waking anyone else, right? So they would need a way to instantly quiet JBR without killing her, right? Cord fibers found in JBR's bed means she was garrotted right there, and moved downstairs while garroted, right? Now how do you suppose a garroted kid in pajamas is ready to be carried against her will out the front door to a car thats possibly on the next block?

Now comes the basement part, where she is apparently ungarroted, blanketed, taped, and fed pineapple.

This need you perceive escapes me. A kidnapper who has been in the basement since mid-afternoon or early evening to no longer use the basement because they want to take JBR screaming in her pajamas to their car?

So they wait two hours before killing her?? (The pineapple needed time to digest.)

 

[UKGuy]

First of all WHY would they care if her underwear was stained with urine, blood or both? How did they know WHERE to find the new/clean underwear? Why would THEY care if the new/clean underwear said WEDNESDAY (Christmas was on a Wednesday, and she had worn the size 6 Wednesday panties that day...but, WHY would an intruder/kidnapper/killer give a hoot about that??), why not just grab a pair of panties from her drawer...why did they HAVE to say Wednesday..and be the look alike to the ones that she had on earlier that day? I just don't get why an intruder/kidnapper would care about something like that. The panties were supposedly wrapped to give as a gift to Patsy's niece...how did the intruder know what was in that package? Did he use his crystal ball? If he had came all that way to kidnap a child, why would he bother opening a tiny Christmas gift, that just happened to contain size 12 panties, of the same style that JB had worn that day? He didn't break into the Ramsey's home to steal things...he broke in to steal a person. So, he would have had no reason to go through and open Christmas presents....make that ONE Christmas present...the one that just so happened to contain the size 12 panties. On the other hand, IF those panties had of been kept JB's panty drawer (and they WERE unopened...as Patsy herself stated)...then WHY would an intruder OPEN a new pack of panties...why not just grab a pair that was already there?? Which leads me to the original question...why would an intruder/kidnapper change her underwear ANYWAY ??? Again, ....this makes absolutely NO SENSE at all. The ONLY reason that I could see someone wanting to put the SAME style of panties on JB...as the ones that she had worn earlier that day...is because, JB had a habit of asking anybody around her..to wipe her when she went potty. IF someone at the White's party had of wiped her, then they would have seen the Wednesday panties. The Ramsey say that JB was "zonked out"...when she arrived home, and didn't wake up. But, how could this BE..if for some reason, she got up in the middle of the night to change her panties (and the only reason for that would be, if she had of wet herself and Patsy would have known about that, because she would have had to change the sheets)...then that would contradict the Ramsey's story. They put her to bed, she was asleep, and she didn't get up..until the intruder kidnapped her and took her to the basement. The ONLY reason that makes sense that she would have a size 12 pair of identical panties that she had worn earlier that day...is if the PARENTS put them on her. THEY knew where the panties were kept. Whether it be the drawers, or wrapped up for a gift. They are the only people that would have a REASON to change her into the SAME day of the week panties, but, just a different size. It wouldn't have mattered if those panties were a size 40...(granny panties)...what DID matter, is that they said WEDNESDAY...Just in case someone at the Whites party had wiped her, and had of seen them.

Ames,
The Ramsey's returned a pack of discovered size-12's at a later date. No doubt for fingerprint dusting, in case the intruder prints were on them?

They put her to bed, she was asleep, and she didn't get up..until the intruder kidnapped her and took her to the basement.

JonBenet may not have been killed in the basement, this may have occurred elsewhere, since the wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene!

It wouldn't have mattered if those panties were a size 40...(granny panties)...what DID matter, is that they said WEDNESDAY...Just in case someone at the Whites party had wiped her, and had of seen them.

Or does it simply mean whomever killed JonBenet knew she had been wearing a Wednesday pair, because the killer removed them? Anyway the possibility that someone saw her at the White's saw her wearing a Wednesday pair being the reason for that pair being chosen seems inconsistent, since anyone wiping JonBenet would also know the difference between a size-12 and a size-6 pair of Panties, then there is their color, white, pink etc?

Also Patsy lied outright about JonBenet's underwear and those size-12's why should she do that if the wearing of the size-12's had a role to play e.g. as a Wednesday pair?

Coroner Meyer tells us that JonBenet was wiped down after being dressed in those size-12's, otherwise he could not reach that conclusion. He also opines that JonBenet was digitally penetrated and suffered sexual contact. Now the latter two opinions cannot be confused with the first, since he is aware someone wiped JonBenet down. So her vaginal injuries may be independent of any cleaning done to JonBenet?


Now the Toilet Rage theory proposes that there was a short period between JonBenet's head injury and her final death, so why did the person inflicting the head injury not phone or seek medical assistance for JonBenet, at this point all we have is a 6-year old girl accidently whacking her head on some household object, following either a bedwetting or corporal cleansing incident, neither of which are a capital offence, possibly not even misdemeanour offences?

So someone deliberately killed JonBenet then a crime-scene was staged, probably after a fake kidnapping was decided against, hence the ransom note, and the broken window?

So why would anyone want to make sure JonBenet was dead, what is the percentage in that? Just imagine JonBenet recieving medical assistance, she comes round a day or two later, in hospital she says I hit my head on something when Mom was cleaning me, or after wetting the bed I hit my head on something when Mom was cleaning me up. OK may not sound very maternal, but its not a capital offence, and JonBenet is still alive. And if she suffering such serious brain damage that she may never recover consiousness, then whats the problem from the parents perspective?

imo the person who killed JonBenet knew she was being sexually molested and it was to prevent JonBenet ever talking that she was killed, not because she wet the bed or was being wiped down!



.

 

[UKGuy]

So they wait two hours before killing her?? (The pineapple needed time to digest.)

IrishMist,
Thats what destroys the parents version of events and blows away any intruder theory, even Lou Smit resorted to making up excuses for the pineapple.

It also tells you that JonBenet was alive and walking about after arriving back from the White's, and that the pineapple snack was such a domestic family affair that it was totally neglected folllowing her death, despite removing other forensic evidence.


Also if you are Patsy and you know that JonBenet has been wetting the bed recently, and you feed her pineapple and milk late at night, which is maybe 80% fluid, why would you be angry that she eventually does wet the bed?



.

 

[JMO8778]

without thinking about what is really going on.

oh, we're thinking about what's going on,alright.the question is,why are you expecting anyone to believe this made-up nonsense that you ran with,based on a couple of misspelled words from the RN and the author stating SHE (IMO) is a foreigner?

Now how do you suppose a garroted kid in pajamas is ready to be carried against her will out the front door to a car thats possibly on the next block?

no getaway car was ever spotted...anywhere.and the garrote was to *kill her...she wouldn't have had it on before that.

Now comes the basement part, where she is apparently ungarroted, blanketed, taped, and fed pineapple.

oh boy...now she's *Un garroted? I don't think even the dumbest (I was trying to be nice at first,but,forget it..) twit would buy that....

 

[Ames]

You're hung up on this 'go out the front door right away' idea, without thinking about what is really going on.

The intruders would be moving JBR from her bedroom downstairs against JBR's will, right? Without waking anyone else, right? So they would need a way to instantly quiet JBR without killing her, right? Cord fibers found in JBR's bed means she was garrotted right there, and moved downstairs while garroted, right? Now how do you suppose a garroted kid in pajamas is ready to be carried against her will out the front door to a car thats possibly on the next block?

Now comes the basement part, where she is apparently ungarroted, blanketed, taped, and fed pineapple.

This need you perceive escapes me. A kidnapper who has been in the basement since mid-afternoon or early evening to no longer use the basement because they want to take JBR screaming in her pajamas to their car?

The cord fibers found in her bed were not the same fibers that the rope that she was garotted with was made up of. I have only read ONE time, somewhere a long time ago...about the cord fibers in her bed, but have seen nothing to back it up. You say that she was garotted in her br, and then taken to the basement, where they took off the garotte and fed her pineapple...do you not realize how ridiculous that sounds? A kid that had just been garotted is not just going to go along with intruders that try to feed her pineapple. "Let's take that pesky garotte off so that you can eat this pineapple". I don't think that she would have just sat there and ate pineapple with someone that she didn't know, that had just tied a rope around her neck. And you are saying that they took her down to the basement to prepare her for her departure in the getaway car that was probably a block away. WHY didn't they take the blanket from her bed? If she was being noisy, then taking her out the door and into the car, would have made more sense than down to the basement. What if her parents had of heard her being noisy, and followed the intruders down to the basement?? The reason that I am so "hung up on this "go out the front door right away idea'...is because its the only thing that makes sense. Your scenario, no matter what reasons you give...to quiet her, to feed her pineapple, to wrap her in the blanket, to change her underwear, to tape her up.....makes NO sense...when they could have gone out the front door with her and into an awaiting car...and down the road and out of the country. If they had of been real, international, professional kidnappers...ONE of them would have been waiting in the car down the street with some sort of radio so that the other intruder that was in the house, could use his and say..."I have her, lets go". The other intruder pulls up right in front of the house...and away they go. That is the way real, professional kidnappers would have done it. None of this, kidnapping and taking her to the basement of her OWN HOME, for ANY reason.. business. Utterly ridiculous...that is what it is.

 

[Ames]

...next please ! then WHO was their next target??? funny they never struck again...

Yes it is...they must have not wanted one THAT bad!

 

[Ames]

So they wait two hours before killing her?? (The pineapple needed time to digest.)

Yeah, how sweet of them. Guess they didn't want her to get stomach cramps, while riding in the getaway car. NO WAIT...that only applies to swimming after you eat.

 

[Ames]

Ames,
The Ramsey's returned a pack of discovered size-12's at a later date. No doubt for fingerprint dusting, in case the intruder prints were on them?


JonBenet may not have been killed in the basement, this may have occurred elsewhere, since the wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene!



Or does it simply mean whomever killed JonBenet knew she had been wearing a Wednesday pair, because the killer removed them? Anyway the possibility that someone saw her at the White's saw her wearing a Wednesday pair being the reason for that pair being chosen seems inconsistent, since anyone wiping JonBenet would also know the difference between a size-12 and a size-6 pair of Panties, then there is their color, white, pink etc?

Also Patsy lied outright about JonBenet's underwear and those size-12's why should she do that if the wearing of the size-12's had a role to play e.g. as a Wednesday pair?

Coroner Meyer tells us that JonBenet was wiped down after being dressed in those size-12's, otherwise he could not reach that conclusion. He also opines that JonBenet was digitally penetrated and suffered sexual contact. Now the latter two opinions cannot be confused with the first, since he is aware someone wiped JonBenet down. So her vaginal injuries may be independent of any cleaning done to JonBenet?


Now the Toilet Rage theory proposes that there was a short period between JonBenet's head injury and her final death, so why did the person inflicting the head injury not phone or seek medical assistance for JonBenet, at this point all we have is a 6-year old girl accidently whacking her head on some household object, following either a bedwetting or corporal cleansing incident, neither of which are a capital offence, possibly not even misdemeanour offences?

So someone deliberately killed JonBenet then a crime-scene was staged, probably after a fake kidnapping was decided against, hence the ransom note, and the broken window?

So why would anyone want to make sure JonBenet was dead, what is the percentage in that? Just imagine JonBenet recieving medical assistance, she comes round a day or two later, in hospital she says I hit my head on something when Mom was cleaning me, or after wetting the bed I hit my head on something when Mom was cleaning me up. OK may not sound very maternal, but its not a capital offence, and JonBenet is still alive. And if she suffering such serious brain damage that she may never recover consiousness, then whats the problem from the parents perspective?

imo the person who killed JonBenet knew she was being sexually molested and it was to prevent JonBenet ever talking that she was killed, not because she wet the bed or was being wiped down!



.

UK, whose side are you on? LOL MY POINT is...in intruder did NOT put those panties on JB...one of her parents did. This is the point that I am trying to get across to Holdon. Regardless of WHY her parents placed them on her, or killed her....THEY are the ones that placed them on her...NOT a member of a small foreign faction, that has two buddies working with him...that wanted to kidnap JB, for his bride, but nixed the plan, and decided to kill her. after he found out that she was not REALLY a blonde hair, blue eyed American...but in fact, had green eyes and dark roots.

 

[UKGuy]

UK, whose side are you on? LOL MY POINT is...in intruder did NOT put those panties on JB...one of her parents did. This is the point that I am trying to get across to Holdon. Regardless of WHY her parents placed them on her, or killed her....THEY are the ones that placed them on her...NOT a member of a small foreign faction, that has two buddies working with him...that wanted to kidnap JB, for his bride, but nixed the plan, and decided to kill her. after he found out that she was not REALLY a blonde hair, blue eyed American...but in fact, had green eyes and dark roots.

Ames,

UK, whose side are you on?

The side of truth. I agree with you though, no intruder placed the size-12's on JonBenet, who had green eyes and brown hair with highlights.


.

 

[JMO8778]

The cord fibers found in her bed were not the same fibers that the rope that she was garotted with was made up of. I have only read ONE time, somewhere a long time ago...about the cord fibers in her bed, but have seen nothing to back it up. You say that she was garotted in her br, and then taken to the basement, where they took off the garotte and fed her pineapple...do you not realize how ridiculous that sounds? A kid that had just been garotted is not just going to go along with intruders that try to feed her pineapple. "Let's take that pesky garotte off so that you can eat this pineapple". I don't think that she would have just sat there and ate pineapple with someone that she didn't know, that had just tied a rope around her neck. And you are saying that they took her down to the basement to prepare her for her departure in the getaway car that was probably a block away. WHY didn't they take the blanket from her bed? If she was being noisy, then taking her out the door and into the car, would have made more sense than down to the basement. What if her parents had of heard her being noisy, and followed the intruders down to the basement?? The reason that I am so "hung up on this "go out the front door right away idea'...is because its the only thing that makes sense. Your scenario, no matter what reasons you give...to quiet her, to feed her pineapple, to wrap her in the blanket, to change her underwear, to tape her up.....makes NO sense...when they could have gone out the front door with her and into an awaiting car...and down the road and out of the country. If they had of been real, international, professional kidnappers...ONE of them would have been waiting in the car down the street with some sort of radio so that the other intruder that was in the house, could use his and say..."I have her, lets go". The other intruder pulls up right in front of the house...and away they go. That is the way real, professional kidnappers would have done it. None of this, kidnapping and taking her to the basement of her OWN HOME, for ANY reason.. business. Utterly ridiculous...that is what it is.

indeed.anyone who uses a security co. can tell you that they talk about burglars,'intruders'..so to speak.they want a quick in and out,they don't waste time,they get in,they get OUT,ASAP.It's planned that way in advance.
A KN in a sense is a burglar of sorts,only his target is human,which makes it even more important that he plan ahead and stick to that plan,being quick and efficient,NOT wasting time,and not strolling about the house while the occupants are at home.

 

[JMO8778]

Yes it is...they must have not wanted one THAT bad!

..not only that,it would be easier to just take her anyway,and get her another pair of blue contacts and dye her hair later,since an intruder would be already in the house and have ahold of her.beats finding another child,breaking in,risking getting caught,etc.
..and on THAT note...if 'they' are foreigners,I would think it would be easier to find a blond haired,blue eyed child in a EUROPEAN county,not in the USA.we're mix here of all different hair and eye colors,of course,and not only that,those countries are closer to places where they 'behead' ppl,and crossing the ocean isn't necessary to get there.

 

[DeeDee249]

Without wanting to go into this whole thing again...Coroner Meyer stated that JBR had been wiped down. He did NOT state or opine that it was either before OR after the size 12s were put on her. All he said was that she had been wiped down because there was no staining on her clothing that corresponded to the amount of blood that would have been there based on the fact that there was enough blood to be on her thighs. If she had been wiped down AFTER the size 12s, there would have been a LOT more blood on them. The fact that there were only a few drops in them signifies that the stagers never saw those few drops. Once they wiped her down and put the clean (at the time) new size 12s on her, at that point they put the long johns back on her too, and after that she was wrapped in the blanket. The stagers NEVER SAW that a few drops of blood had oozed out after she was redressed.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this. NO way those size 12s were on her before she was wiped. They'd have had MUCH more blood in them, and not just in the crotch. The leg bands, and fabric that was near her thighs would have been bloody also.