Patsys Clothes?

[Charlie]

It took months for the cops to get the clothes from Patsy for testing, had to go through the lawyers, Ramseys didn't volunteer to hand the clothes over.....she was fond of that outfit!

Dont get me wrong i think the ramseys are guilty of murdering JonBenet, but i dont think the fact that Patsy wore the same clothes is indicative of guilt, although waiting months to hand them over to LE is suspicious.

 

[Jayelles]

Nobody has ever said that Patsy stank "to high heaven". Nor do I think she'd be "stinking to high heaven" after wearing an outfit for only a few hours at a social get together in mid winter. Maybe if she'd been moving furniture in a fish factory during a heat wave.

Patsy's Christmas outfit consisted of a red and black fleecy seasonal-styled "blazer" and a pair of black velvet trousers. She wore them for a few hours of socialising and decided to put them on again the following day. I honestly cannot see the problem with this - especially since it was a "Christmas" outfit - i.e. one which she might only choose to wear during 2/3 festive days of the year.

The theory that her wearing the same outfit meant she hadn't been to bed is non-sensical for one big reason. If Patsy had come home from the Whites, murdered her daughter, staged the crime scene and then called the police - all whilst wearing the same outfit...... there would have been a TON of forensic evidence on that outfit. Patsy had no way of knowing that the police wouldn't have immediately arrested her and John and taken their clothing for testing.

If Patsy had been up all night committing murder and covering it up, the most important part of the cover up would have been to change or get rid of her clothing.

OTOH, she claimed she hadn't had a shower AND that she had decided to wear the same clothes again. It's possible that was a very CLEVER part of the staging if she had indeed had a shower and laundered the clothes that she had worn to commit the crime.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Ames, I'm really glad to see you here, too.

 

[Vegas Bride]

To me it's understandable if she only wore the outfit a few hours the evening before, to go ahead and wear it the next morning with just putting on clean underwear. If she did have it on all night long while busy staging the scene the clothes would have had much more wear to them. If she had washed them sometime during the night would the sweater have been able to be washed and dried without showing damage? Which brings me back to my original question that I wish I had an answer to and that is did she have a change of underwear on?

VB

 

[Jayelles]

To me it's understandable if she only wore the outfit a few hours the evening before, to go ahead and wear it the next morning with just putting on clean underwear. If she did have it on all night long while busy staging the scene the clothes would have had much more wear to them. If she had washed them sometime during the night would the sweater have been able to be washed and dried without showing damage? Which brings me back to my original question that I wish I had an answer to and that is did she have a change of underwear on?

VB

We don't know about the underwear - and will likely never know. We know she says she didn't have a shower because her shower was broken, but we don't know when she last had a shower or where she last had a shower or why she didn't simply use one of the many other showers or baths in the house.

 

[icedtea4me]

Thanks Icetea....So there's a good chance Patsy put fresh underwear on underneath the clothes she wore yesterday.....yeah why bother to walk across the room and pick a new outfit out of the closet when you can reach down and pick yesterday's stinky clothes off the floor.

Guess Patsy thought the outfit wowed the christmas party folk and the outfit ought to impress her future son in law she was to meet later.....smell was not the issue.

You're welcome! I had been looking up something else from that interrogation when I happened to come across that tidbit. It's possible she didn't go to bed right away like she said and was up doing other things still dressed in those clothes. At least she says wore clean underwear the next day.


-Tea

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Personally, I can't see wearing the same outfit the next day. She had a closet full of clothes, I can't believe she'd want to put on the same clothes she'd worn the night before.

True, after wearing in only a few hours it wouldn't have been as raunchy as if she'd worn it the entire day, but I know from just having gone through Christmas socializing that plenty can happen to make an outfit less then fresh in a few hours.

I don't know about others, but when I'm dressed in a long-sleeved shirt with a jacket type garment over it inside someone's house, I end up perspiring - especially when I'm talking and laughing and moving around, having a good time. That alone would have me not wanting to dress in the same clothes the next day, and add into that the atmosphere - were people smoking in the White's house during the party? I'm not a smoker, and when I realize I've been around smokers enough for the smell to have gotten on my clothes, I change those clothes. Patsy was a former smoker. Perhaps the smoke smell, if there was any, didn't bother her.

But flying to Michigan...being on a plane for more than an hour in an outfit that may smell of smoke or perspiration would be more than I could handle, not to mention I don't think it would be as comfortable as, say, jeans and sweatshirt. Patsy was also going to spending time with Melinda's fiancé, Stewart Long, someone she barely knew. I'd be surprised if Patsy was all set to wow the new beau in an outfit she'd had on the night before as well as on the flight up to Michigan. I just don't think it fits in with who her friends say she was - her own friends expressed disbelief that Patsy would get up and redress in the same outfit she'd worn the night before. it wasn't like she didn't have any other Christmas-y outfit she could have worn....

And then there's the fiber evidence. The fibers found in the paint tray, on the tape, and tied into the ligature knot were chemically and microscopically consistent with Patsy's jacket, which leads me to believe that she had that jacket on when she staged the scene, with the tape and tying the ligature around JB's neck. That makes me wonder...how likely is it that she'd be doing all of that still in her jacket? I've never staged a crime scene and killed a child, but I'm pretty sure I'd make myself comfortable and shed off the jacket before I rolled up my sleeves to do the dirty work. I sure as heck would not be standing there in the same outfit I'd had on all night when the police arrived.

So what's the real story in regards to the jacket and Patsy wearing it two days in a row?

 

[UKGuy]

Personally, I can't see wearing the same outfit the next day. She had a closet full of clothes, I can't believe she'd want to put on the same clothes she'd worn the night before.

True, after wearing in only a few hours it wouldn't have been as raunchy as if she'd worn it the entire day, but I know from just having gone through Christmas socializing that plenty can happen to make an outfit less then fresh in a few hours.

I don't know about others, but when I'm dressed in a long-sleeved shirt with a jacket type garment over it inside someone's house, I end up perspiring - especially when I'm talking and laughing and moving around, having a good time. That alone would have me not wanting to dress in the same clothes the next day, and add into that the atmosphere - were people smoking in the White's house during the party? I'm not a smoker, and when I realize I've been around smokers enough for the smell to have gotten on my clothes, I change those clothes. Patsy was a former smoker. Perhaps the smoke smell, if there was any, didn't bother her.

But flying to Michigan...being on a plane for more than an hour in an outfit that may smell of smoke or perspiration would be more than I could handle, not to mention I don't think it would be as comfortable as, say, jeans and sweatshirt. Patsy was also going to spending time with Melinda's fiancé, Stewart Long, someone she barely knew. I'd be surprised if Patsy was all set to wow the new beau in an outfit she'd had on the night before as well as on the flight up to Michigan. I just don't think it fits in with who her friends say she was - her own friends expressed disbelief that Patsy would get up and redress in the same outfit she'd worn the night before. it wasn't like she didn't have any other Christmas-y outfit she could have worn....

And then there's the fiber evidence. The fibers found in the paint tray, on the tape, and tied into the ligature knot were chemically and microscopically consistent with Patsy's jacket, which leads me to believe that she had that jacket on when she staged the scene, with the tape and tying the ligature around JB's neck. That makes me wonder...how likely is it that she'd be doing all of that still in her jacket? I've never staged a crime scene and killed a child, but I'm pretty sure I'd make myself comfortable and shed off the jacket before I rolled up my sleeves to do the dirty work. I sure as heck would not be standing there in the same outfit I'd had on all night when the police arrived.

So what's the real story in regards to the jacket and Patsy wearing it two days in a row?

Nuisanceposter,

How about if Patsy was dressed, ready to leave the house, and deposit JonBenet's body outdoors? JonBenet's death would still need some staging to deflect attention.

That makes me wonder...how likely is it that she'd be doing all of that still in her jacket?

Are the PDI people minded to think Patsy was fully dressed when she killed JonBenet?

How about JDI, and his staging was revised by Patsy?


.

 

[coloradokares]

Patsy proberly didnt put on her outfit until the evening before going to the whites and she got home at 10ish so she didnt wear it that long, doubt it was stinky.

I know i wear nice clothes on xmas day, usually new clothes ive recieved that morning as a present. It doesnt seem odd to me she would want to look nice on both xmas day and the 26th when meeting her future son-in-law, therefore wearing the same "good" clothes.

Charlie, Patsy was a very wealthy woman with clothes galore ok. She was a former contestant in the Miss America Contest. She had probably thousands of dollars of clothing ready for wearing at her disposal. I assure you she always looked fashion plate ready and played the part of a wealthy socialite woman to a T. Her makeup was freshly applied. Its only my opinion that it would defy logic to plan to wear previously worn clothes on a trip then change into whatever she had up there at Charlevoix to meet the new son in law. I am sure she had a perfect outfit at the ready. And would have presented herself and the family picture perfect. That was Patsy to which Boulder knew. I also want to note something many from Boulder noted as a changed habit of Patsy's her fondness for wearing the same outfit again and again and again after JonBenet died. Like the blue suit with the white trim. Patsy was not one to wear outfits out before. That was an observation more than a fact. That is only an opinion.

 

[Show Me]

Patsy spent more than a few hours in the clothes, not only attending the White's Christmas party she also delivered Christmas presents to friends then did things around the house before 'dressing in her jammies'.

I'd say she wore the outfit at least 6 hours, the housekeeper claimed Patsy threw her clothes around, so she'd probably dropped them on a chair or floor.
Patsy wakes up, discovers her shower is broken and for some reason can't use any of the other three bathrooms in the house.

Well heck didn't take a shower why not wear the clothes from the night before....wayyyyy to much trouble to walk all the way to the closet and have to pick an outfit.

Maybe she received a ton of compliments and thought....'my future son in law must see me in the outfit! What an impression I'll make'.

IMO Patsy never changed her clothes that night and that is why the fibers are evidence.

Plus the police didn't get the outfit from Patsy for months and months....so who knows if blood was on the outfit?

 

[UKGuy]

Patsy spent more than a few hours in the clothes, not only attending the White's Christmas party she also delivered Christmas presents to friends then did things around the house before 'dressing in her jammies'.

I'd say she wore the outfit at least 6 hours, the housekeeper claimed Patsy threw her clothes around, so she'd probably dropped them on a chair or floor.
Patsy wakes up, discovers her shower is broken and for some reason can't use any of the other three bathrooms in the house.

Well heck didn't take a shower why not wear the clothes from the night before....wayyyyy to much trouble to walk all the way to the closet and have to pick an outfit.

Maybe she received a ton of compliments and thought....'my future son in law must see me in the outfit! What an impression I'll make'.

IMO Patsy never changed her clothes that night and that is why the fibers are evidence.

Plus the police didn't get the outfit from Patsy for months and months....so who knows if blood was on the outfit?

Show Me,

she also delivered Christmas presents to friends then did things around the house before 'dressing in her jammies'.

Does this mean Patsy rose to deal with JonBenet wetting the bed, so decided to redress in yesterdays clothes, or did she get dressed prior to applying the garrote to JonBenet down in the basement?

Or did she never go to bed, nor get undressed, so does this mean she killed JonBenet while fully dressed?

Something does not quite add up here?



.

 

[JMO8778]

Thanks Icetea....So there's a good chance Patsy put fresh underwear on underneath the clothes she wore yesterday.....yeah why bother to walk across the room and pick a new outfit out of the closet when you can reach down and pick yesterday's stinky clothes off the floor.

Guess Patsy thought the outfit wowed the christmas party folk and the outfit ought to impress her future son in law she was to meet later.....smell was not the issue.

LOL.
In DOI,she leads the reader to believe the clothes were close at hand,like on a chair nearby.She says she 'swings out of bed and promptly remembers her shower is broken'. (never mind they have plenty more that aren't!).Then she says, 'oh well, don't need one this morning'. (yea,lets just go smelly).So she reaches for her clothes and starts dressing.(she must have long arms since they were far away in the bathroom !)
No shower,yesterday's clothes,but she put on her makeup b/c her mom taught her to 'never leave the house without your makeup on'.Plus,she wants to impress Melinda's finace,who will be with them.
....something wrong with this pic????

 

[JMO8778]

You're welcome! I had been looking up something else from that interrogation when I happened to come across that tidbit. It's possible she didn't go to bed right away like she said and was up doing other things still dressed in those clothes. At least she says wore clean underwear the next day.


-Tea

I've always thought it weird in DOI that JR makes a point of telling what all *he did b/f going to bed...but no mention of PR.He simply says she was already in bed when he got there.

 

[JMO8778]

Charlie, Patsy was a very wealthy woman with clothes galore ok. She was a former contestant in the Miss America Contest. She had probably thousands of dollars of clothing ready for wearing at her disposal. I assure you she always looked fashion plate ready and played the part of a wealthy socialite woman to a T. Her makeup was freshly applied. Its only my opinion that it would defy logic to plan to wear previously worn clothes on a trip then change into whatever she had up there at Charlevoix to meet the new son in law. I am sure she had a perfect outfit at the ready. And would have presented herself and the family picture perfect. That was Patsy to which Boulder knew. I also want to note something many from Boulder noted as a changed habit of Patsy's her fondness for wearing the same outfit again and again and again after JonBenet died. Like the blue suit with the white trim. Patsy was not one to wear outfits out before. That was an observation more than a fact. That is only an opinion.

I wonder if her makeup was 'fresh' b/c she'd been crying over JB's death,and she had to reapply it?

 

[JMO8778]

Show Me,



Does this mean Patsy rose to deal with JonBenet wetting the bed, so decided to redress in yesterdays clothes, or did she get dressed prior to applying the garrote to JonBenet down in the basement?

Or did she never go to bed, nor get undressed, so does this mean she killed JonBenet while fully dressed?

Something does not quite add up here?



.

IMO,I think that's what happened.It's the most logical explanation.Something happened after they returned home, yet b/f she had a chance to change.We know there was pineapple out and JB had some,so it seems they had a snack and PR didn't change bf that,and not afterwards either.

 

[JMO8778]

This is from the interrogation on June 23, 1998-



0018

1 bed and then the first stop you made, the first

2 thing you did along that route.

3 PATSY RAMSEY: My clothes were

4 probably thrown on the bathtub (INAUDIBLE).

5 TOM HANEY: Let me stop you there.

6 The clothes that you say were thrown down, those

7 were clothes you had worn the night before?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

9 TOM HANEY: Okay. Seems odd to me.

10 PATSY RAMSEY: Early. I do this a

11 lot.

12 TOM HANEY: Now did you intend to

13 wear those the rest of the day though or --

14 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS)?

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably what I

16 thought I would do, you know, my thinking was I

17 have my underwear and all that is in these

18 drawers here, so I put my underwear on, but I

19 put the black velvet pants on the and the red

20 sweater, red top, and then we have clothes up at

21 the lake, and I took a few things with me. You

22 know, it was just so early, I was just going to

23 throw on whatever I had up there. Just get in,

24 tumble into bed and when we awake early, you

25 know, kind of almost get ready up there. You

0019

1 know.

Maybe she was trying to account for fiber evidence on the bathtub? So maybe she took the clothes off to wash her face and reapply her makeup if she'd been crying,and since we know the 911 call came in rather late,(considering what their previous plans were),maybe she did put them down there,washed her face and reapplied her makeup,yet for lack of time...put the same clothes back on?(and or needed them to account for fiber evidence,later throwing herself on JB's body). JAT.

 

[Becba]

If I were getting up really early for a private plane ride, where no one is going to see me, I may just wash my face and plan to shower when I arrived. But I would want to be fresh and showered if I were meeting family like the Ramseys were. They awoke approximately 1 and 1/2 hrs before the plane was to take off. Enough time to shower and get the kids up. JonBenet had not had a shower at least the day before. You would think the children would have to be bathed before the plane trip, but with the close schedule there would not have been much time for that. So I guess they were all going to be unwashed except John. Strange that John was the only one to have showered. Makes me think he was washing off DNA that should not be on certain areas of his body.

 

[coloradokares]

I wonder if her makeup was 'fresh' b/c she'd been crying over JB's death,and she had to reapply it?

All things are possible.

 

[UKGuy]

Maybe she was trying to account for fiber evidence on the bathtub? So maybe she took the clothes off to wash her face and reapply her makeup if she'd been crying,and since we know the 911 call came in rather late,(considering what their previous plans were),maybe she did put them down there,washed her face and reapplied her makeup,yet for lack of time...put the same clothes back on?(and or needed them to account for fiber evidence,later throwing herself on JB's body). JAT.

JMO8778,

put the same clothes back on?(and or needed them to account for fiber evidence,later throwing herself on JB's body).

No Patsy could not predict the future. She was upstairs and JonBenet was downstairs, the person to discover JonBenet was John, not Patsy.

At 6AM Patsy did not know come 7AM whether she would be sitting in a police interview room, or still waiting for JonBenet to be found?

Wearing those same clothes links her directly to wine-cellar crime-scene, so accounting for fiber evidence cannot be the motive.

Lack of time is a possible reason, but its doubtfull since it probably takes the same time to dress fresh than old?

I suspect the real reason Patsy was dressed in worn clothes was because she had intended to dump JonBenet's body outdoors, using the car, and wearing yesterdays clothing would be consistent with any fibers discovered?



.

 

[IrishMist]

JMO8778,



No Patsy could not predict the future. She was upstairs and JonBenet was downstairs, the person to discover JonBenet was John, not Patsy.

At 6AM Patsy did not know come 7AM whether she would be sitting in a police interview room, or still waiting for JonBenet to be found?

Wearing those same clothes links her directly to wine-cellar crime-scene, so accounting for fiber evidence cannot be the motive.

Lack of time is a possible reason, but its doubtfull since it probably takes the same time to dress fresh than old?

I suspect the real reason Patsy was dressed in worn clothes was because she had intended to dump JonBenet's body outdoors, using the car, and wearing yesterdays clothing would be consistent with any fibers discovered?



.

I've always thought that in their panic, it did not occur to her to change her clothes. I don't see the Ramsey's as great criminal masterminds. Just a couple of terrified people trying to hide an awful event. If the BPD weren't so inept, I don't think the R's would have gotten away with it at all.